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View Poll Results: Realism or Mysticism
Total realism (ie: Tech-based) 10 21.28%
Total mysticism (ie: it's magic and the audience knows it) 12 25.53%
Ambiguous - We're never fully told/explained 25 53.19%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-09-2008, 01:56 PM   #1
Bren
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Default Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

We can all see there's a debate raging about whether there should be any mysticism (magic) in the Iron Man sequels.

Now personally I'd like a comic book movie that pushes the boundaries and goes all out to be exactly that, a comic book movie. My main requirement would be for the 'realistic characters' to react realistically to 'mysticism', just as we in the real world would react to magic - shock, awe, horror etc. If those characters (Stark, Pepper, Rhodes...) react in such a way, then that's realistic enough for me.

So we're talking mainly about IM2 villians, but the appearance of Thor would also be of the 'mystical or not' poll.

Incidentally, I'm hoping his appearance will be VERY small and non-interactive and merely shows the audience his existence and interest in Earth...


Last edited by Bren; 05-09-2008 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Thor is being presented as the real deal in his film.

Presenting him as a superhero who everyone thinks is crazy in the other films work because (hopefully) most audiences will know the truth and take it in stride.

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Old 05-09-2008, 06:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

A Thor appearance means IM 2 is definitely a lot more mystical than realistic. I am not saying the two can't co-exist... but I think it is better off keeping the individual character movies realistic more so than not. I don't mind if there are a few things that are "out there" as long as it works in context with the movie.

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Old 05-09-2008, 06:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

It really depends on how Thor ends. If the finale has Thor "falling" to earth, he could end up in under Loki's manipulations and appear like he does in the Ultimates.

Or he'll just be an awesome thunder god.

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Old 05-13-2008, 10:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Thor's appearance is not an excuse for Iron Man's life to be filled with mysticism. A guest appearance is not liscence for genre-bending. If you do magic in an Iron Man (not the same as Avengers) movie, you need to take the 30 minutes over the course of the film to explain its origins, rules and how it integrates with history as we know it to give it credibility. It will be just as frustrating as the out-of-nowhere black goo from SM2, or the out-of-nowhere "you're not really the one, are you?" Architect speech from the Matrix 2. Don't betray the premise.

Is-it-or-is-it-not is the best way to go, imho. Comic fans can call it what they want, and the rest of the world doesn't have to go 'WTF??'

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Old 05-13-2008, 11:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Hi, I am new to the boards so I hope I am not cutting anyone off...

As a comic fan for about 20 years now (lol I am only 25... so that tells you how into it I am) as well as a someone who serves in the Military and has seen a lot of the tech. I feel it would not take away from anything if there was a mystic side to the story. There are a lot of things that we can not explain today and why not answer it with the possibility of magic or God's such as thor? You can keep things based in reality that way I would think. Someone else made a good point as long as they act like we would act in a situation such as seeing a God. Then it could play out very nicely I think. Plus I must admit I am biased towards the whole magical and mystical aspects of all the comic genres.

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Old 05-13-2008, 01:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Quote:
Originally Posted by GL1 View Post
Thor's appearance is not an excuse for Iron Man's life to be filled with mysticism. A guest appearance is not liscence for genre-bending. If you do magic in an Iron Man (not the same as Avengers) movie, you need to take the 30 minutes over the course of the film to explain its origins, rules and how it integrates with history as we know it to give it credibility. It will be just as frustrating as the out-of-nowhere black goo from SM2, or the out-of-nowhere "you're not really the one, are you?" Architect speech from the Matrix 2. Don't betray the premise.

Is-it-or-is-it-not is the best way to go, imho. Comic fans can call it what they want, and the rest of the world doesn't have to go 'WTF??'
I agree 100%. IMO The Ultimates' route is the way to go.

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Old 05-13-2008, 04:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

The only way this is going to work is you use the end of the IRON Man movie to bridge the gap between realism and mysticism. I'm thinking Thor movie is going to end up like a LOTR type movie.

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Old 05-13-2008, 04:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

I think you people are over thinking this waaaayyy too much. At best Thor's appearance will be a simple cameo or a mere mention. There's rumors that they're gonna make the Mandarin a Mystical Threat, (Even though his powers are alien in origin) that alone would be your way to bridge the gap or whatever. The next movie having a lot of Science versus Magic is not a bad idea for a sub plot. Stark trying to fight something he can't understand. Theres your drama right there.

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Old 05-15-2008, 04:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto View Post
Thor is being presented as the real deal in his film.

Presenting him as a superhero who everyone thinks is crazy in the other films work because (hopefully) most audiences will know the truth and take it in stride.
They could give Thor the Sentry-setup.
Shield has him imprisoned because nobody believes he's a real God, and even Thor himself is very confused, due to the whole banished to Earth and adapting to our lifestyle thing.

Although For me personally, I'd rather have them use the Sentry instead of Thor. It's easier to deal with (yet another) person who tried a formula (based on the super soldier serum (Haha! tie-in)), than a mystical being in a, so far, quite realisticly based universe.

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Old 05-15-2008, 04:41 AM   #11
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Hmmmm.....I'm not sure where I stand on this. On one hand, I love all things mystical and it is one of my favourite genres but on the other hand, one of my favourite things about Iron Man, in both the film and the comics, is that it really gets one thinking about war and peace and what really is the best way and how someone like me, who is all anti-war, anti-America's arrogant globaliastion ways, can idolise this guy whose very job is that. I know Stark doesn't believe in it but still....I think I like Iron Man best when it sticks to the ethical debates of war and weaponry, but I'd be open to a mystical side.

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Old 08-10-2008, 07:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Realism seems to be working in Hollywood now. Let's keep it that way.

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Old 08-10-2008, 09:18 PM   #13
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Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

My ideas on the subject, as I posted in another thread:

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Originally Posted by The Question View Post
What I don't understand is why some people are of the believe that The Mandarin's rings are akin to high fantasy and he's some kind of dark sorcerer. His rings are based on technology, that's always been the case. It's his philosophy and other skills not directly related to the origins of the rings that are mystical. He's the type who believes that science has just as much mystical significance and some ancient ritual, and at the same time, that things like Chi and and spirits and whatnot are scientifically quantifiable phenomena. That is his philosophy, and there are plenty of people in this world who share that philosophy. I know a few. It's not hard to pull off. People are just looking for a reason to make it harder than it is.
Also, not mine, but an idea as to how The Mandarin's rings should work that I thought was really really cool.

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Originally Posted by Nepenthes View Post
I fully agree with both these posts. Magic works best when it has its own internal logic.....and of course the crossroads of sorcery and technology is a particularly interesting angle for Iron Man. It goes back to Asimovs Law of Magic which is so basic and easy to relate to yet still so compelling even to ordinary people. The idea I posted before would dove-tail well with Mercury's type of origin background. The rings should be technological tools for writing magic, i.e. coding in a language that we simply don't understand. There could be so many cool visuals. E.g. as he signs with his fingers an exotic text language appears suspended in the air and he drags the pieces around like a holographic computer screen a la Minority Report, then he executes the command and the air itself suddenly explodes or freezes or whatever. He's re-writing the laws of physics and reality and it makes Tony Stark look like a cro-magnon waving a blunt stick; a good challenge that also sets up a nice extreme dichotomy of cultures, East VS West etc, both using totally different technologies with the old Orient being presented as more advanced, unknowable, alien. Which is the way Chinese have been perceived by the rest of the world throughout the majority of history

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Old 08-29-2008, 11:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

I guess keep it ambiguous. Not in the way that nothing is explained but more balanced.

Dont set up barriers like Nolan did

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Old 04-04-2009, 10:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

I think Thor as a crazy guy who doesn't know hes a god is awesome, keep it real bring the mysticism later.

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Old 05-03-2009, 10:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

The Mandarin should be done the way he was in the recent Knaufs story: the rings are not explained because they don't need to be. They're there, they can do some lethal things, that's all you need to know about them.

He's not the Ring-Guy when all is said and done, he's the Ghenghis-Khan-Mad-Scientist-kung-Fu guy who happens to have rings. Over focusing on the rings diminishes him pointlessly.

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Old 05-17-2009, 08:18 AM   #17
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Ambiguous - We're never fully told/explained

I think this way of working will work for films up until 50 years in the future were we have technology which can pretty much do anything, more specifically 30 years ahead were the modern jet pack will become mainstream.

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Old 08-03-2009, 10:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

From a writing perspective you run the risk of deviating from a well established reality thread into a campy blend of Iron Man versus Harry Potter. There are just too many other really strong stories that can be told (demon in a bottle, armor wars) that would maintain the forward progression of the established storyline without risking losing your audience for the whole franchise.

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Old 04-17-2010, 03:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

Ambiguous, There's no other way to do it, If there going to manage to tie the Iron Man world into the world of Thor, and possible others like Mandarin or Doctor Strange, they have to do it that way, you don't want it to feel like a movie about sorcerers, witches and wizards, rather you'll want it to feel like This is the real world... BUT there are unknown forces beyond the comprehension of average humans, such as thor and mandarin, we don't want mandarin to just be able to through fire balls and magic spells, nor do you really need to know how the gods and thor got there in the first place. In my opinion, you need to keep the audiences guessing.

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Old 05-05-2010, 09:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

I'm fine with calling it magic. Tony doesn't have to rationalize how magic works. It's not really a big part of his life anyway.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:22 AM   #21
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

The Mandarins rings were NEVER magic, they have always been alien tech.

Mandarins movie rings should be regular tech, unless they use Skrulls in the Avengers movies, then they can do the real origin of Mandarin finding the rings in the crashed space ship.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

The gate called mysticism has been opened wide in Thor and the Avengers when Iron Man interacts with Thor.

So Magic vs Tech is certainly fine by Iron Man 3.

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Old 05-06-2010, 10:36 AM   #23
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

I dont understand how tech and magic cant be in the same movie...it didnt seem to hurt the Star Wars franchise....

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Old 05-06-2010, 06:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

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I dont understand how tech and magic cant be in the same movie...it didnt seem to hurt the Star Wars franchise....
It's funny you mention that, Jon (who is a huge Star Wars fan) explained it like this
Quote:
Favreau also had this to say, "I look at Mandarin more like how in 'Star Wars' you had the Emperor, but Darth Vader is the guy you want to see fight. Then you work your way to the time when lightning bolts are shooting out of the fingers and all that stuff could happen. But you can't have what happened in 'Return of the Jedi' happen in 'A New Hope'. You just can't do it."
And then there's this interview

http://www.**************.com/fansit.../news/?a=17863

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Old 05-06-2010, 06:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Realism vs Mysticism vs Is-it-or is it not

why couldnt you have someone shooting lighting bolts from their fingers in ANH....we had Vader force choking someone, Obi wan doing the jedi mind trick

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