The 2008 Democratic and Republican Primaries

[Marx]

Originally Posted by souvlaki

What I find hilarious about the 2012 argument is that if she is actually doing all this with the intentions of running again in 2012, or if supporters are voting against Obama because they want her her to run in 2012, do they honestly believe the people she pissed off during this election will support her in four years? I certainly know I wont, and I'm sure there will be a lot of bitter democrats that will look at her from this point forward as a spoiler if she in any way harms the chances of Obama winning the presidency. She has almost no chance of winning the nomination in 2012, and her supporters are delusional if they think the people that grew to dislike her during this election are just going to change their minds and vote for her in a primary four years from now. She crossed a line about a month ago and I don't think she will ever be able to recover from it. It's basically 2008 or bust for her.

If Obama loses in the fall, he will have no one to blame but himself Souv. Supporters are free to think as they please, but the buck stops with the candidate running.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by TheMarx

If Obama loses in the fall, he will have no one to blame but himself Souv. Supporters are free to think as they please, but the buck stops with the candidate running.

You know, if this was said a month ago, I would have agreed with this statement. However, Clinton has convinced her supporters that she has won the popular vote-- a fact which is wholeheartedly untrue yet she refuses to admit otherwise. She also refuses to tell her supporters her exact method as to how she's winning the popular vote. She's a liar and a master manipulator, and she will keep those ignoramuses who believe her outrageous lies from voting for Obama in the fall. They will be convinced that Obama stole the election from her, which is utterly false. Obama can't control what Hillary says, nor he can control what ignorant morons think.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

You know, if this was said a month ago, I would have agreed with this statement. However, Clinton has convinced her supporters that she has won the popular vote-- a fact which is wholeheartedly untrue yet she refuses to admit otherwise. She also refuses to tell her supporters her exact method as to how she's winning the popular vote. She's a liar and a master manipulator, and she will keep those ignoramuses who believe her outrageous lies from voting for Obama in the fall. They will be convinced that Obama stole the election from her, which is utterly false. Obama can't control what Hillary says, nor he can control what ignorant morons think.

Not all of her supporters are as simple-minded as you suggest.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by TheMarx

Not all of her supporters are as simple-minded as you suggest.

I didn't say they all are.

Of course, many of them are.

I had the liberty of discussing presidential politics with several neighbors from upstate New York. They are adamant Hillary supporters. Do you know why they don't support Obama? One thinks he's a terrorist, and said "I don't think I can vote for a man named Barack Hussein Obama-Osama-Derka Der!" (near verbatim). The other thinks Obama literally stole the election from her, and she also thinks that Hillary leads on all counts. Why? Because Hillary said it-- it must be true!

She can keep this act up and convince enough people that Obama stole this from her. Then she's going to cost Democrats the election, and her reputation will be forever ruined.

[ForestAflame]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

I didn't say they all are.

Of course, many of them are.

I had the liberty of discussing presidential politics with several neighbors from upstate New York. They are adamant Hillary supporters. Do you know why they don't support Obama? One thinks he's a terrorist, and said "I don't think I can vote for a man named Barack Hussein Obama-Osama-Derka Der!" (near verbatim). The other thinks Obama literally stole the election from her, and she also thinks that Hillary leads on all counts. Why? Because Hillary said it-- it must be true!

She can keep this act up and convince enough people that Obama stole this from her. Then she's going to cost Democrats the election, and her reputation will be forever ruined.

QFT

[souvlaki]

Originally Posted by TheMarx

Not all of her supporters are as simple-minded as you suggest.

Go to Politico.com and read the discussion boards there. There are certainly enough of her supporters that believe the popular vote myth, and may, infact, believe everything that comes out of her mouth. The defection rate amongst Clinton supporters is enough to support that idea if even 25% of those voters feel that way because they feel Clinton has a popular vote majority, and has earned the nomination (which she hasn't) then that is cause for concern.

Strong supporters of Obama are not the only ones drinking the proverbial kool-aid.

And no, not all of her supporters are that simple minded, but I dont think any of us are claiming that.

[TheComicbookKid]

Originally Posted by souvlaki

My biggest problem with her making this argument is the more times she says it, the more her supporters will honestly believe it. When she says this she doesn't put it in proper context. She doesn't mention she is including a state where Obama wasn't even on the ballot. She doesn't mention that she isn't counting caucus states. And after she wins Puerto Rico she wont mention that Puerto Rico can't even vote in the general election, and given the sheer number of voters in Puerto Rico, the popular vote is likely to have a huge effect. So Clinton supporters are going to continue to believe they had the election stolen from them because they won the popular vote. It's a divisive and underhanded move that will give Hillary supporters that are already on the fence the motivation to vote for McCain, or not vote at all. She may not be outright encouraging her supporters to switch sides, but by mentioning time and time again she is winning the popular vote, despite her calculations for how she is winning that popular vote is ridiculous, she is certainly giving them the justification to vote against Obama in November.

I don't think Hillary really cares either way. She's poisoning the water for Obama anyway.

Pundits are saying that Obama should come and allow Hillary to have the FL and MI votes like she wants them since he already has the nomination anyway because he'll look like a great peacemaker.
WTF?! Or she'll spin it to make to make it look like she got the people's vote counted and Obama looks weak. Hillary only wants the vote counted if it favors her. Be damned what she said earlier.

[souvlaki]

Originally Posted by TheComicbookKid

I don't think Hillary really cares either way. She's poisoning the water for Obama anyway.

Pundits are saying that Obama should come and allow Hillary to have the FL and MI votes like she wants them since he already has the nomination anyway because he'll look like a great peacemaker.
WTF?! Or she'll spin it to make to make it look like she got the people's vote counted and Obama looks weak. Hillary only wants the vote counted if it favors her. Be damned what she said earlier.

That's why I think cutting the delegates in half, and, worst case scenario, splitting the uncommitted delegates in Michigan between Edwards and Obama is the way to go. They did that in the GOP race, and I don't remember any talks of disenfranchisement there. It's a fair compromise, and if Hillary refuses noone can possibly make the argument that she cares about Michigan and Florida. That just shows signs of her only caring about herself. If you seat the states as is, which is what Clinton wants, what you are essentially saying to every state is they can break the rules without any fear of punishment.

[hippie_hunter]

The DNC should have done what the GOP did and punish Michigan and Florida by halving their delegates, not stripping all of them away. If that happened we wouldn't be having this debate and McCain would have had zero chance in Michigan as well.

[Marx]

As you all know, we are nearing the end of what has been a truly exciting primary season. With just five contests left to go, discuss what you think will happen!

Which candidate do you think will win which primary? What will the margins be? With a presumptive Republican nominee in place, will the Democratic field finally be narrowed down to one? Will the Democratic Rules Committee Meeting on May 31st affect the June contests?


May 27th
The Idaho Primary (Republican Only)

June 1st
The Puerto Rico Primary (Democratic Only)

June 3rd
The Montana Primary (Democratic Only)
The New Mexico Primary (Republican Only)
The South Dakota Primaries (Both Parties)


You all know the drill.

(For the last time in the primaries...)

Discuss!

[The Senator]

Obama wins Montana and South Dakota.

Clinton wins Puerto Rico.

Clinton continues to deny the facts and stays in until the convention, destroying the Democratic Party and her reputation in the process.

[StorminNorman]

McCain will win Idaho.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Obama wins Montana and South Dakota.

Clinton wins Puerto Rico.

Clinton continues to deny the facts and stays in until the convention, destroying the Democratic Party and her reputation in the process.

I wonder if the "rules committee meeting" will end it before it has a chance of going to the convention.

[The Senator]

Considering there are numerous Clinton supporters on the Rules Committee, I highly doubt it.

[hippie_hunter]

Clinton will obviously win Puerto Rico but I have no idea about Montana and South Dakota.

On one hand they're primaries unlike the rest of their fellow Midwestern states and they're completely rural areas. Obama does very poorly in rural areas that hold primaries, Montana and South Dakota should be Clinton's demographic: white, rural, conservative-esque voters. But on the other hand Obama has done very well in the Midwest, despite the fact that they were caucuses you just can't ignore the fact that he's dominated in the Midwest.

[rdh007]

Clinton is playing like this is the last game of her career. She must not think she stands a chance in '12.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

McCain will win Idaho.

That's very bold of you Norm.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Obama wins Montana and South Dakota.

Clinton wins Puerto Rico.

Clinton continues to deny the facts and stays in until the convention, destroying the Democratic Party and her reputation in the process.

This may be true,with Obama winning both Montana and South Dakota,he gets enough to win the nomination. Obama supporters are happy,Clinton is in denial. End of story,as Obama looks to battle McCain..that's when the real battle begins.

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by rdh007

Clinton is playing like this is the last game of her career. She must not think she stands a chance in '12.

She really doesn't. If Obama loses to McCain in the election she's going to get much of the blame for why they lost for exposing Obama's weaknesses making him look like an elitist and doing the Republicans work for them. Obama has this in the bag yet she continues to go on dragging this thing out because she's in denial and still has this idea in her head that she's the one who deserved this nomination hands down.

[Superman4ever]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Obama wins Montana and South Dakota.

Clinton wins Puerto Rico.

Clinton continues to deny the facts and stays in until the convention, destroying the Democratic Party and her reputation in the process.

Here here.

[Superman4ever]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

McCain will win Idaho.

[souvlaki]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

She really doesn't. If Obama loses to McCain in the election she's going to get much of the blame for why they lost for exposing Obama's weaknesses making him look like an elitist and doing the Republicans work for them. Obama has this in the bag yet she continues to go on dragging this thing out because she's in denial and still has this idea in her head that she's the one who deserved this nomination hands down.

What I find ironic about this, as I mentioned in another thread, is I honestly think one of the reasons some Hillary voters are threatening to vote for McCain is they are clinging to the hope she will come back in 2012. Does anyone with any common sense really think even if she did run in 2012, she'd win?

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by souvlaki

What I find ironic about this, as I mentioned in another thread, is I honestly think one of the reasons some Hillary voters are threatening to vote for McCain is they are clinging to the hope she will come back in 2012. Does anyone with any common sense really think even if she did run in 2012, she'd win?

All the Obama voters who will become bitter because she cost him the election will work against her, and all the Democrats who will come to resent the McCain presidency will be infuriated that she threw the election to him. There's no way she'll have a shot at the presidency four years from now.

She needs to make a deal with Obama. She needs to position herself for Senate majority leader or the Supreme Court. Otherwise, her political future will be ruined.

[souvlaki]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

All the Obama voters who will become bitter because she cost him the election will work against her, and all the Democrats who will come to resent the McCain presidency will be infuriated that she threw the election to him. There's no way she'll have a shot at the presidency four years from now.

She needs to make a deal with Obama. She needs to position herself for Senate majority leader or the Supreme Court. Otherwise, her political future will be ruined.

Well, I already know there is not a chance in hell she'd get my primary vote in 2012, but I think that was probably already a given.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by souvlaki

Well, I already know there is not a chance in hell she'd get my primary vote in 2012, but I think that was probably already a given.

I don't think she'll get my vote if she becomes the 2008 nominee. And if she costs Obama the election, I will work to ensure she is defeated in any future political contest she participates in.