Gore vs. Bush and the 2000 election debacle, 8 years later.

[Matt]

Well, upon watching Recount (just for the record, great movie. Hurricane Katherine's portrayl is great), I thought this would make a good thread. Lets look at the 2000 presidential election in historical retrospect. What are your thoughts? Was Gore cheated? And by cheated I do not mean "He won the popular vote!" I am talking about Katherine Harris' involvment and questionable activities regarding stopping recounts and intentionally locking out non-felon voters. What are your thoughts? Lets discuss...

[Marx]

You beat me to it Matt. I was going to post something about that. I thought "Recount" was very well done. It really gives you a behind-the-scenes perspective into things. Harris should have somehow excused herself from the process. I never have like that woman! Laura Dern was spot on!

[StorminNorman]

The recounts stopped would not of given Gore the victory as is, various independent reports have shown that. The Butterfly Ballot was designed by a Democrat heavy county, so that can not be pointed to either. Also, it could be argued that the media calling Florida for Gore with the Republican rich Central Time Zone still counting votes, potential George Bush voters went home (being from west Florida, I know some people that turned around in their car personally).

[NewYorkSpider]

There was also a mistake with everyone on TV saying that all the polls in Florida closed at 7:00 p.m. I think the western counties were open till 8:00 p.m. So voters were confused about this and didn't bother to vote. I think Bush had it won either way.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman

The recounts stopped would not of given Gore the victory as is, various independent reports have shown that. The Butterfly Ballot was designed by a Democrat heavy county, so that can not be pointed to either. Also, it could be argued that the media calling Florida for Gore with the Republican rich Central Time Zone still counting votes, potential George Bush voters went home (being from west Florida, I know some people that turned around in their car personally).

The study also showed that if you count the over votes, Gore would've won.

You surely cannot deny at the very least, Hurricane Katherine did a lot of shady **** to favor Bush both leading up to and following the election.

[comicgirl]

Originally Posted by Matt

The study also showed that if you could the over votes, Gore would've won.

You surely cannot deny at the very least, Hurricane Katherine did a lot of shady **** to favor Bush both leading up to and following the election.

Very shady.........too late now

[Matt]

Originally Posted by comicgirl

Very shady.........too late now

Still fun to discuss it in historical retrospect. It is just mind boggling. There was an entire team of Republican lawyers whose job was to keep votes from being counted. There were government officials looking for ways to circumvent the Democratic process. The Supreme Court issued, for the first and only time ever, a one time ruling that just coincidentially favored the son of the man who appointed a couple of them and whose predecessor and running-mate appointed a couple more. They did in such a manner that regardless of their ruling there was no way the votes could be recounted by the deadline in which the state legislature (all Republican, mind you) would have authority to give away the delegates. The Supreme Court ran out the clock for godsake! What harm would've been done by a recount? The only reason to over turn the Florida State Supreme Court's decision was if Bush would suffer irreparable harm. What irreparable harm would be present through counting the votes? This case was just so friggin absurd and a complete **** on Democracy.

[The Senator]

I just wonder whether it would have been worth it if Gore had won... I remember thinking of him as an arrogant conformist back in 2000. I think this loss grounded him in reality. He's become a much better politician (and person) since.

[Kelly]

Still, Klain, now general counsel for a private investment firm, said the movie overemphasizes his role. And he cautioned that it should not be viewed as a journalistic enterprise. "If people watch the film and think this is the complete story of what had happened, they're going to be missing a lot," he said. "A lot of really complex and nuanced debates we had about strategy ended up getting oversimplified into 10-second conversations.

"It's a film," he added. "Not a history book."

Director Jay Roach said he's not under any illusion that the movie will be viewed as the definitive take on the recount.


I would vote if there was a choice that said "The American people were cheated, because the Constitution was not followed".

The decision should not have gone to the Supreme Court (Judicial Branch) it should have gone to the senate (Legislative Branch).

As far as Katrina, my governor said it best IMO. "Get bureauracy out of the way, do what needs to be done..."

Houston, Texas, within 3 hours of getting the call for help proved that statement to be correct. An entire city was built within Reliant Arena and George R. Brown including restaurants, medical center, schools, clothing areas, etc. WITHIN hours of the call. How did he do it? He didn't ask for permission which is what they are supposed to do on paper.

[Arkady Rossovich]

This is a debate all unto itself. I think Gore won the election,and there was confusion during the recount..which shown that Bush "won". Which I think is a lie...with all that has happened,I can imagine people wished it was just left with the Gore victory.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

I just wonder whether it would have been worth it if Gore had won... I remember thinking of him as an arrogant conformist back in 2000. I think this loss grounded him in reality. He's become a much better politician (and person) since.

And yet, ironically he has lost interest in politics as a result. Guess that goes with the whole being a better person thing, eh?

[Malice]

I dont know enough to say one thing or another.

My one point is, if you cant figure out how to use the damn balot, you are too dumb to vote. OK there, I said it.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Malice

I dont know enough to say one thing or another.

My one point is, if you cant figure out how to use the damn balot, you are too dumb to vote. OK there, I said it.

That's not necessarily true.

[The Senator]

A lot of it wasn't so much the ballot confusion, but rather the hanging chad problem... so many ballots were rejected because the vote cards were not thoroughly punctured, and the directions weren't specific enough to inform many voters that such ballots would not be accepted...

[DACrowe]

Was Gore cheated out of the election? I cannot say for certain. We never got a full fledged recount (local precincts and counties botched the machine recount when this began) and there was so much dubious and underhanded ****e that went down in Florida leading up to the election it is hard to grasp all of it.

But I think the Republican Party did everything humanly possible to not get any votes counted that may have been misread on election day and that included using the political airhead named Harris and a disgusting ruling from the US Supreme Court. At the same time the Democrats were just, if not more, desperate in their needs to only recount the four most liberal counties in the state and preparing to sue everyone for months ad nauseum until Gore told them it was over.

I simply think it is too convoluted that we will ever know. I just wish that the Federal Supreme Court had stayed out of it and a full statewide hand recount was held. Who REALLY KNOWS what that outcome would have been. But these are old wounds that have healed a good amount, though every now and then thinking about a "what if" scenario where a president who respected the environment, kyoto, our allies, would not have invaded Iraq and half-assed Afghanistan and vacationed while New Orleans drowned with an economic policy that had about as much foresight as those of Herbert Hoover had been elected.

Yet it is a pipe dream, so I just shrug now and watch for the future. With that said Recount was pretty good if a little bit too dry. Laura Dern as Katherine Harris was amazing though.

[moraldeficiency]

There was a lot screwed up. We here in florida in paticular like to mess with rules, just look at the demo primary here. If you want to see some real shenannigans check out our local elections.

I did; however, think the media calling states too early definately went against bush, so there was a bias there as well (not intentional, but there none the less).

As for the voting chads and whatnot, if you're going to vote you really should make sure what you put down is absolutely clear. I don't think that needed to be explained, but nowadays most things that are common sense to a gradeschooler confuses and frustrates anyone over 25 so maybe we just need to accept that the majority of everyone is in fact a moron that cannot do things as simple as drink a cup of coffee without explicit directions on how to not hurt yourself.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

There was a lot screwed up. We here in florida in paticular like to mess with rules, just look at the demo primary here. If you want to see some real shenannigans check out our local elections.

I did; however, think the media calling states too early definately went against bush, so there was a bias there as well (not intentional, but there none the less).

As for the voting chads and whatnot, if you're going to vote you really should make sure what you put down is absolutely clear. I don't think that needed to be explained, but nowadays most things that are common sense to a gradeschooler confuses and frustrates anyone over 25 so maybe we just need to accept that the majority of everyone is in fact a moron that cannot do things as simple as drink a cup of coffee without explicit directions on how to not hurt yourself.

I think you're right. After all, for some reason weapons manufacturers feel the need to print "Fire only at the enemy" on all US issued rocket launchers.

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Matt

I think you're right. After all, for some reason weapons manufacturers feel the need to print "Fire only at the enemy" on all US issued rocket launchers.

I was amazed at my first day of basic when the gunny explained how you shouldn't look down the rifle barrel of a loaded weapon.

[Raiden]

I just think that, with the election came down to a state where W's brother was governor, who appointed a psycho like Harris to try to stop any of the recounts, and interfered by the federal Supreme Court who should've stayed out of something as politicized as a presidential election, there were too many things happened that made me suspicious of the final election result. Gore didn't win, but he did get the majority of the popular votes and since U.S. is supposed to be a democracy, he'll always be the Prez in my mind.

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Raiden

I just think that, with the election came down to a state where W's brother was governor, who appointed a psycho like Harris to try to stop any of the recounts, and interfered by the federal Supreme Court who should've stayed out of something as politicized as a presidential election, there were too many things happened that made me suspicious of the final election result. Gore didn't win, but he did get the majority of the popular votes and since U.S. is supposed to be a democracy, he'll always be the Prez in my mind.

The US isn't and has never been a democracy. It's a federal republic, so popular vote wouldn't actually count.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Raiden

I just think that, with the election came down to a state where W's brother was governor, who appointed a psycho like Harris to try to stop any of the recounts, and interfered by the federal Supreme Court who should've stayed out of something as politicized as a presidential election, there were too many things happened that made me suspicious of the final election result. Gore didn't win, but he did get the majority of the popular votes and since U.S. is supposed to be a democracy, he'll always be the Prez in my mind.

Also, Harris was elected, not appointed.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

I was amazed at my first day of basic when the gunny explained how you shouldn't look down the rifle barrel of a loaded weapon.

Common sense loses yet another battle.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Matt

Also, Harris was elected, not appointed.

My bad, but my opinion of her still stands.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

The US isn't and has never been a democracy. It's a federal republic, so popular vote wouldn't actually count.

That's why I said "supposed", and I just think it's ironic that U.S. wanted other countries to become a democracy when themselves are a republic, and popular votes don't really count.

[Malice]

Should I punch this thing all the way thru the ballot? or should I just poke it a little?
Man, decisions decisions...