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Old 06-09-2008, 09:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by SuperFerret View Post
Basically that's what I was saying.
One problem being that Christianity isn't dualist. TF lore is. That is Primus and Unicron are opposed but equal. God and the devil aren't. The Zurvanist form of Zoroastrism (which elevates the angel of darkness to an equal but opposed force to Ahura Mazda) is more appropriate.

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Old 06-09-2008, 06:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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In a way, it does make sense to go this epic. Think about it. The first film had Megatron and the Decepitcons wanting to take over Earth (no matter how shoddy the script elements were). You can't go that route in the sequel, even with a new and improved Megatron.
Why not? The first two spiderman movies were essentially the same - rescue girlfriend, stop villian. And both of those movies were spectacular. Bourne Identity movies? Each one was better than the last and, essentially, were still the same.

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Going this route and possibly introducting an entity (Unicorn) that could devour the goals of not only the Autobots and our human characters, but the Decepitcons as well, is absolutely the way to go.
And then you have Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3. It'll likely be sloppy, silly, and none of it will make any sense unless you've been a devoted fan since 1984. It's just way too complicated to have any adequate character development, and becomes too far fetched to even want to imagine.

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The fate of our world needs a much bigger threat than just having Megatron and his boys fighting it out with the Prime and the Autobots.
Once again, why? So much fighting was left unfinished and off screen in the first one. We're at the second of possibly many movies, and you already want to see the autobots and decepticons stop fighting each other. Personally, I don't think there was enough robot interaction to justify them teaming up now. Lets see an entire film full of autobots vs. decepticons. If you're in such a rush to go so massively epic, you'll miss all the fun stuff along the way.

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Introducing the herald to Unicron (The Fallen) and the possiblity of even introducing the first of the Transformers (Primus) is a wonderful idea.
I saw Fantastic Four 2 last summer, and didn't find anything too exciting about Galactus. As far as Unicron goes, it would be even more silly to envision a planet sized transformer that can speak.

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I know alot of fans don't want Unicron but Bay and the writers aimed way too high with the first film with the stakes of that film. They really have no choice but to go the Unicron route...which opens up a whole host of story threads (The death of Prime, the rise of Galvatron, the rise of Rodimus Prime, etc...)
And this is what really irks me the most about the hardcore devoted Transformer fans. They all feel like the new films have to play out exactly like the animated movie did. Everyone has already seen that story - lets not redo it. Prime doesn't have to die, Megatron doesn't have to be renamed, and nobody likes Rodimus anyways so please lets just tuck this one away and allow it to r.i.p.

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Old 06-10-2008, 08:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

I honestly do not think this will involve the character The Fallen. I think the title revenge of The Fallen refers to how certain characters from the last movie have been destroyed or who have fallen in battle and they will return to get revenge, most notably Megatron. Plus, there is nothing established in the movie storyline for The Fallen to get revenge for. I honestly believe the story will be about Megatron's return, plus so many fans don't even know who The Fallen is, he wasn't even in the original G1 cartoon and he even doesn't have a toy released

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Old 06-12-2008, 07:22 PM   #29
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by J.Howlett View Post
In a way, it does make sense to go this epic. Think about it. The first film had Megatron and the Decepitcons wanting to take over Earth (no matter how shoddy the script elements were). You can't go that route in the sequel, even with a new and improved Megatron.

You have to go beyond the Autobots and Decepitcons fighting it out over Earth. The other logical step is to have them fight it out over Cybertron but that doesn't work for a live action film because it would cost way too much and you take away the human element, especially Shia and Megan.

Going this route and possibly introducting an entity (Unicorn) that could devour the goals of not only the Autobots and our human characters, but the Decepitcons as well, is absolutely the way to go.

The fate of our world needs a much bigger threat than just having Megatron and his boys fighting it out with the Prime and the Autobots.

Introducing the herald to Unicron (The Fallen) and the possiblity of even introducing the first of the Transformers (Primus) is a wonderful idea.

I know alot of fans don't want Unicron but Bay and the writers aimed way too high with the first film with the stakes of that film. They really have no choice but to go the Unicron route...which opens up a whole host of story threads (The death of Prime, the rise of Galvatron, the rise of Rodimus Prime, etc...)

I agree with the rest but i want non of the highlighted suggestions to come to fruition, yet at least, and Prime's death should never be done within the first trilogy at least either.

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Old 06-13-2008, 03:47 AM   #30
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

People...People...People....you are reading way!!!!!to much into this,but it is a mb so guess that is to be expected!


"The Fallen"=Decepticons....simple as that!

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Old 06-13-2008, 08:09 AM   #31
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by Ravsuh View Post
I honestly do not think this will involve the character The Fallen. I think the title revenge of The Fallen refers to how certain characters from the last movie have been destroyed or who have fallen in battle and they will return to get revenge, most notably Megatron. Plus, there is nothing established in the movie storyline for The Fallen to get revenge for. I honestly believe the story will be about Megatron's return, plus so many fans don't even know who The Fallen is, he wasn't even in the original G1 cartoon and he even doesn't have a toy released
Indeed, I don't see a strong enough menace from him.
Just bring a giant-bad-a$$ version of Unicron (not the planetoid one) and make him destroying everything.
Jeez... If I was in Bay, I would put even the real Devastator alongside with Menasor in the Decepticons and Superion with Omega Supreme for the Autobots.

Who cares about the plot?
These are robots, for Zod sake!

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Old 06-14-2008, 10:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by Roaring_Hulk! View Post
I dont believe the writter of that artical.

He got all his basic facts wrong.

Here's a quote from the artical.
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Originally Posted by from story
A few days ago Paramount revealed that the subtitle for Transformers 2 was 'Revenge of the Fallen'. I groaned about it, assuming it was a terrible, generic title. Some TransFans began speculating that the Fallen of the title was actually a character from Transformers comics, an ancient Transformer who seems to play the Devil in their mythology. (A dude called Primus is like God. I think. Maybe the better correlation is that the Fallen is like Darkseid).
The Fallen was not the Devil of Transformers myth....if any one is its Unicron that fits that bill.

The writter of that artical cant even seem to make good comparisons to characters from other fictions because The Fallen isint even like DC's Darkseid...Darkseid was the ultimate ruller of Apokolips and followed no one.The Fallen follows the word of Unicron.

If anything The Fallen is more like a Herald of Galactus.

Now I'm not saying he's wrong about the movie but how can you trust the word of a site or the reporter that does his research on Wiki and still gets the basic facts wrong????

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Old 06-16-2008, 11:48 PM   #33
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Not being a hardcore TF fan, I haven't heard of the Fallen (though I'm more or less aware of Unicron and Primus), and so to me it sounds like the character is too obscure for Bay to A) have heard of him, and B) introduce him in the second movie.

I'm more inclined to think "the fallen" is short for "the ones who got their asses beat in the last movie"

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Old 06-16-2008, 11:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Not being a hardcore TF fan, I haven't heard of the Fallen (though I'm more or less aware of Unicron and Primus), and so to me it sounds like the character is too obscure for Bay to A) have heard of him, and B) introduce him in the second movie.

I'm more inclined to think "the fallen" is short for "the ones who got their asses beat in the last movie"

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Old 06-22-2008, 07:36 AM   #35
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

^Thing is though, Orci, Kurtzman and the other guy writing the movie ARE TF fans, so if The Fallen is in the movie, its because of them, not Bay IMO.

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Old 06-22-2008, 08:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON View Post
^Thing is though, Orci, Kurtzman and the other guy writing the movie ARE TF fans, so if The Fallen is in the movie, its because of them, not Bay IMO.
It is true that the writers are fans but not to that extent, my guess is when Bay and co went for the meeting with Hasbro he probably would have asked for a character in the mythos that is evil, one that is outside of Megatron and Unicron. I guess The Fallen was next in line, provided that it is The Fallen that the title is referring to.

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Old 06-22-2008, 08:57 AM   #37
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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I guess The Fallen was next in line, provided that it is The Fallen that the title is referring to.
Yeah, it could still be all just misinformation.

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Old 06-22-2008, 09:46 AM   #38
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

I will believe all of this when I have my bucket of popcorn, sitting in my chair and watching the movie....

For now I will read this info as entertainment. No dis-respect to others and their sources.
I personally do not want to be lead to believe something, then watch the movie and it doesn't happen.. Don't want a let down..

But again this is good speculation and good reading..
Props to everyone for the info finding

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Old 06-22-2008, 11:40 AM   #39
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Personally I think the folks who are so adamant that this ISN'T in reference to The Fallen of the comics are simply the people who, prior to this news getting out, had never personally heard of The Fallen. The reasoning is something like this:

"I have not heard of The Fallen, ergo The Fallen is obscure, ergo they wouldn't use him in a movie," which is obviously faulty logic."

Personally, I would be pretty effing surprised if it WASN'T The Fallen.

a.) The Fallen is the next logical step in the trilogy. Start with Megatron, ramp it up to The Fallen, and eventually to Unicron in Transformers 3. (Of course, methinks that we'll be seeing Megatron again, too)

b.) All the talk about this movie is that it's going to be absolutely epic in scope, that it'll blow the first one out of the water in that regards. How, pray tell, do you accomplish that with the same villains and the same stakes?

c.) Revenge of the Fallen, despite it's generic sound, isn't a title that just fell into their laps. They had to consciously choose this title. Picking a generic title that just happens to include the name of a pretty key villain would just be sloppy, and I hope they'd know better than that. If you're just going for a generic title indicating the return of the Decepticons, you could just as easily (more easily, even) come up with something that doesn't have the name of a key figure in it. That'd be like calling the next Batman movie The Dark Knight Returns. Yeah, in theory, they could, and it could just be a generic title, but it'd be sloppy to do that considering that it's already a title of significance.

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Old 06-22-2008, 11:44 AM   #40
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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^Thing is though, Orci, Kurtzman and the other guy writing the movie ARE TF fans,.
Sure they are

Just like they are Trekies too.

These are the two guys that first named both characters "Blackout" & "Frenzy" by the name of Soundwave in the early drafts of the first film.

They obviously dont know how to write for some of these characters.

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Old 06-22-2008, 11:57 AM   #41
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Personally I think the folks who are so adamant that this ISN'T in reference to The Fallen of the comics are simply the people who, prior to this news getting out, had never personally heard of The Fallen. The reasoning is something like this:

"I have not heard of The Fallen, ergo The Fallen is obscure, ergo they wouldn't use him in a movie," which is obviously faulty logic."
I dont think your right.

I have a good number of friends and associates that are all big TF fans.....most not only know who "The Fallen" is but also loved the character and not a single one of them thinks that the title is in refrance to the character from the comics.

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Old 06-22-2008, 12:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Originally Posted by ThatDamnNinja View Post
Personally I think the folks who are so adamant that this ISN'T in reference to The Fallen of the comics are simply the people who, prior to this news getting out, had never personally heard of The Fallen. The reasoning is something like this:

"I have not heard of The Fallen, ergo The Fallen is obscure, ergo they wouldn't use him in a movie," which is obviously faulty logic."

Personally, I would be pretty effing surprised if it WASN'T The Fallen.

a.) The Fallen is the next logical step in the trilogy. Start with Megatron, ramp it up to The Fallen, and eventually to Unicron in Transformers 3. (Of course, methinks that we'll be seeing Megatron again, too)

b.) All the talk about this movie is that it's going to be absolutely epic in scope, that it'll blow the first one out of the water in that regards. How, pray tell, do you accomplish that with the same villains and the same stakes?

c.) Revenge of the Fallen, despite it's generic sound, isn't a title that just fell into their laps. They had to consciously choose this title. Picking a generic title that just happens to include the name of a pretty key villain would just be sloppy, and I hope they'd know better than that. If you're just going for a generic title indicating the return of the Decepticons, you could just as easily (more easily, even) come up with something that doesn't have the name of a key figure in it. That'd be like calling the next Batman movie The Dark Knight Returns. Yeah, in theory, they could, and it could just be a generic title, but it'd be sloppy to do that considering that it's already a title of significance.
That's deep man, pretty deep, unfortunatly Bay doesn't do deep

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Old 06-22-2008, 12:35 PM   #43
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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Sure they are

Just like they are Trekies too.

These are the two guys that first named both characters "Blackout" & "Frenzy" by the name of Soundwave in the early drafts of the first film.

They obviously dont know how to write for some of these characters.
When Orci and Kurtzman were penned to write the first one someone in the background should have called out in comical fashion "all aboard the bandwagon". You see a lot of it these days :

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Old 06-23-2008, 04:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

I gotta start reading the comic books

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Old 06-23-2008, 06:37 PM   #45
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Yeah I don't think anyone should read too much into the title. It seems pretty obvious the fallen that are getting revenge in the next movie will be the Decepticons/Megatron. The first movie had a ton more emphasis put on developing the human characters as opposed to the big bots. And I expect more of the same with this one. Little stories with the humans and then giant frickin robots beating the hell out of each other.

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Old 06-24-2008, 01:05 AM   #46
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

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I gotta start reading the comic books
If you want some recommendations let me know, there is a healthy amount floating around these days most of which are a good read.

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Old 06-28-2008, 11:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Just a quick question, there is War Within Vol 2 on Amazon.co.uk, Is this the one with The Fallen in:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transformers...4668896&sr=1-2

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Old 06-28-2008, 11:09 AM   #48
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Yes that's the one, it's called the Dark ages.

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Old 06-28-2008, 11:13 AM   #49
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

^Are you better reading the first one first though?

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Old 06-28-2008, 11:21 AM   #50
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Default Re: I was right! The Fallen is a reference to the character!

Crap can't remember, I'll check.

brb

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