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Old 06-18-2008, 03:22 PM   #26
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'Twould appear you & I are on the same page. And as you can see, none of the impact is lost in the second image.

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Old 06-19-2008, 11:51 AM   #27
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I agree that the use of blue as a higlight can become quite overwhelming. Going back to the Batman reference, just think of the depiction of Batman in the 60's tv show. The cowel was actually blue with a black oval around the eyes. Now you can dismiss this as part of the campiness inherent in the show, but it symbolizes the misconcieved depiction at the time where the blue highlights on black became black shadows on blue and eventually a two color cowel.

Take these pics from Spider-Man 3 for example.

This image, while using blue lighting, does so in a very subtle way.


Here however there is not any blue and you still get a high contrast shine.


Here is another example from the 90's X-Men cartoon. We all know that Cyclops's suit here was blue, and this is easily understood by the way that the colors balance.


But here, it almost seems as if he has a black suit with blue highlights.

As has been stated before it really depends on the particular lighting and to some extent the texture. While blue is an easy shorthand it can become very, very confusing for audiences to properly interpret what is blue with shadows and what is black with highlights.

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:03 PM   #28
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I can only see the 2nd & 3rd images.
I wish I could see the other ones, as you seem to understand where I'm coming from. Some posters on this thread seem to have skimmed over my posts & interpreted my remarks as "No blue ever!!!!!!!!!!" and that's simply not what I'm trying to say. I don't like the overuse, & poor shadow-to-highlight ratios that have almost become standard practice.

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:05 PM   #29
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but his black suit looks best with blue highlights... like i said before it's black, but reflects blue... many paints and hair dyes can do this. plus the thing is alien so can defy all earth logic. venom has been given gray highlights before, but always looks horrible. i dont believe i've ever seen the black suit with gray on spidey
Having thought about it-I have NEVEREVEREVEREVER seen a black garment that looked blue. Never. Not once. And all your claims about shiny black surfaces reflecting blue light only hold water if there's actually some blue light present, which is typically not the case in any comic action scene, unless it's taking place in a club or something like that.

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:08 PM   #30
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Having thought about it-I have NEVEREVEREVEREVER seen a black garment that looked blue. Never. Not once. And all your claims about shiny black surfaces reflecting blue light only hold water if there's actually some blue light present, which is typically not the case in any comic action scene, unless it's taking place in a club or something like that.
ahh but the symbiote is not cloth... never has been

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:45 PM   #31
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I think the problem is less about using blue, and more about people overusing highlights and blacks. Take this Spider-man picture. It has an insane amount of unrealistic highlights, especially in the part of Spider-man facing the building and on the hand, how is light getting in there? This shows an artist who isn't confident in his use of blacks, so he makes sure to outline everything, on both sides, with a highlight. It's unrealistic.

Then colorists get these drawings with an absurd amount of highlights, and pick a color that goes with the scene, but due to the amount of color they need to put on the suits, in the highlights, it becomes confusing what color is what.



The only "highlights" here are on Spider-man's left- back, thigh/leg, and arm. The only black areas are on his left and right inner thighs and where his left shoulder overlaps his neck, Those are all the highlights and blacks one would draw when drawing that picture. The rest is normal shading of the black costume.

So, I don't think it has anything to do with what color they pick, but more about artists who don't realize where to correctly put a highlight and a black.

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:55 PM   #32
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I think it started with lazy inkers who didn't fill in enough black, & with blue being the standard highlight to fill in the gaps, we wound up with entirely too much blue, to the point where an uninitiated viewer couldn't tell the difference.
Also, don't blame it on the inkers. It's the pencilers job to dictate where blacks and highlights are.

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Old 06-19-2008, 01:58 PM   #33
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well to be fair, that movie spidey pic, is full of artificial lighting.

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Old 06-19-2008, 02:01 PM   #34
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well to be fair, that movie spidey pic, is full of artificial lighting.
Either way, it's only very rare and forced occasions that a highlight is on both sides of an object. Both the movie Spider-man pictures have highlights on one side and black on the other. The X-Men picture as well has 1 highlight point.

However, that Black Spider-man on the side of the building, has a highlight outlining his entire body and in every crease that shows important parts of his body.

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Old 06-19-2008, 02:50 PM   #35
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I think the problem is less about using blue, and more about people overusing highlights and blacks. Take this Spider-man picture. It has an insane amount of unrealistic highlights, especially in the part of Spider-man facing the building and on the hand, how is light getting in there? This shows an artist who isn't confident in his use of blacks, so he makes sure to outline everything, on both sides, with a highlight. It's unrealistic.

Then colorists get these drawings with an absurd amount of highlights, and pick a color that goes with the scene, but due to the amount of color they need to put on the suits, in the highlights, it becomes confusing what color is what.



The only "highlights" here are on Spider-man's left- back, thigh/leg, and arm. The only black areas are on his left and right inner thighs and where his left shoulder overlaps his neck, Those are all the highlights and blacks one would draw when drawing that picture. The rest is normal shading of the black costume.

So, I don't think it has anything to do with what color they pick, but more about artists who don't realize where to correctly put a highlight and a black.

Well, assuming the window is reflective, a dull highlight would be seen on the fingers. When using blacks, you sometimes have to overexggerate. It's just the nature of the beast. Sometimes, you have to forgo realism in the interest of making a better picture, Had I went with the absolute correct shades of grey, then the resuly would have looked like a very correct black blob on the center of a nice cityscape.

Could I have done it just perfect and avoided criticism? Yes. Would it have looked as good? Absolutely not. Just look back at the early appearances of the black costume. There were NO highlights, and Spidey wa salways in a flat position to ensure his hands or feet didn't dissappear over another piece of black. The highlights ar ewhat saved it. However, when the 90's rolled around, people started relying on more highlights, and the suit appeared blue....hence, what the topic of the thread is all about.

It's a probelm for which everyone has a different solution.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:09 PM   #36
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Well, assuming the window is reflective, a dull highlight would be seen on the fingers. When using blacks, you sometimes have to overexggerate. It's just the nature of the beast. Sometimes, you have to forgo realism in the interest of making a better picture, Had I went with the absolute correct shades of grey, then the resuly would have looked like a very correct black blob on the center of a nice cityscape.

Could I have done it just perfect and avoided criticism? Yes. Would it have looked as good? Absolutely not. Just look back at the early appearances of the black costume. There were NO highlights, and Spidey wa salways in a flat position to ensure his hands or feet didn't dissappear over another piece of black. The highlights ar ewhat saved it. However, when the 90's rolled around, people started relying on more highlights, and the suit appeared blue....hence, what the topic of the thread is all about.

It's a probelm for which everyone has a different solution.
But look at the movie pictures. Would you draw them the same way your drew the other one? With highlights outlining everything? I'd hope you wouldn't. It honestly shows that you were a little unsure that people would understand the anatomy if a lot of it was blacked out, so you decided to highlight everything

Yes, highlights are necessary with all black costumes. But look at any image of a black costume in reality, there are some highlights and there are shades of gray. Why artists tend to think black in a comic means BLACK area and HIGHLIGHT area, is beyond me.

Yes, areas in your picture would not be pitch black, they would be rendered shades of gray. You used the same color highlight for every area. Look at any object, There is always a brightest color/shade, everything else is below that. There will always be small spots that are the brightest, almost white, highlights. The majority of the "highlights" will be darker then that.

I'm just giving you advice. The hand especially bothers me, it's far too outlined in highlights, when it could easily and realistically be rendered with dark grays. He looks like he has a spot light directly behind him and directly below him.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:13 PM   #37
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But look at the movie pictures. Would you draw them the same way your drew the other one? With highlights outlining everything? I'd hope you wouldn't. It honestly shows that you were a little unsure that people would understand the anatomy if a lot of it was blacked out, so you decided to highlight everything

Yes, highlights are necessary with all black costumes. But look at any image of a black costume in reality, there are some highlights and there are shades of gray. Why artists tend to think black in a comic means BLACK area and HIGHLIGHT area, is beyond me.

Yes, areas in your picture would not be pitch black, they would be rendered shades of gray. You used the same color highlight for every area. Look at any object, There is always a brightest color/shade, everything else is below that. There will always be small spots that are the brightest, almost white, highlights. The majority of the "highlights" will be darker then that.

I'm just giving you advice. The hand especially bothers me, it's far too outlined in highlights, when it could easily and realistically be rendered with dark grays. He looks like he has a spot light directly behind him and directly below him.

That's all well and good. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that, stylistically, my way is the look I was going for.

I do appreciate the advice, though.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:15 PM   #38
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Also, don't blame it on the inkers. It's the pencilers job to dictate where blacks and highlights are.
Ideally, if a penciler drops the ball, the inker should know where & how to fix it.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:17 PM   #39
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Ideally, if a penciler drops the ball, the inker should know where & how to fix it.
But then the penciller gets mad that his work was changed. It's too fine of a tightrope to walk, you don't want to be an inker known for adjusting the pencillers work, you'd only be given the bad pencillers.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:17 PM   #40
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I think the problem is less about using blue, and more about people overusing highlights and blacks. Take this Spider-man picture. It has an insane amount of unrealistic highlights, especially in the part of Spider-man facing the building and on the hand, how is light getting in there? This shows an artist who isn't confident in his use of blacks, so he makes sure to outline everything, on both sides, with a highlight. It's unrealistic.

Then colorists get these drawings with an absurd amount of highlights, and pick a color that goes with the scene, but due to the amount of color they need to put on the suits, in the highlights, it becomes confusing what color is what.



The only "highlights" here are on Spider-man's left- back, thigh/leg, and arm. The only black areas are on his left and right inner thighs and where his left shoulder overlaps his neck, Those are all the highlights and blacks one would draw when drawing that picture. The rest is normal shading of the black costume.

So, I don't think it has anything to do with what color they pick, but more about artists who don't realize where to correctly put a highlight and a black.
I'll buy that. Which goes back to my previous argument that highlights are being overused, shading is (at times) being overused, & what we're left with is a poor (often confusing) ratio of black-to-color.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:24 PM   #41
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ahh but the symbiote is not cloth... never has been
Never said it was. That argument might have a chance of holding up if the same technique wasn't used in rendering the cloth replicas that he's worn. (But it has) And again, I've never seen a black ANYTHING that looked blue regardless of the light, unless the item was shiny & the light was blue. That "alien" argument gets weaker every time you use it, & doesn't account for the abuse of highlights across the board. I used Venom as an example, yes, but there are plenty of others.


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Old 06-19-2008, 03:27 PM   #42
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But then the penciller gets mad that his work was changed. It's too fine of a tightrope to walk, you don't want to be an inker known for adjusting the pencillers work, you'd only be given the bad pencillers.
As a penciller, I can tell you this: You have to acceot that any inker worth his salt is going to add his own flavor to any work he touches. If an inker was there to just "go over the pencils" then inking wouldn't be a profession. Every inker I've ever seen or worked with added soem flair to the work....some going so far as to correct lighting issues. It's a failsafe that you shouldn't rely on, though. the less experienced inkers tend to say, "Not my problem", and that's why they don't make in in the door. The inkers who go that extra mile and enhance the work to which they contribute, those are the guys in the doors of Marvel and DC and the like.

It's all about the finished prodect. An inker can make or break a piece...whether the pencils were flawed or not.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:41 PM   #43
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Never said it was. That argument might have a chance of holding up if the same technique wasn't used in rendering the cloth replicas that he's worn. (But it has) And again, I've never seen a black ANYTHING that looked blue regardless of the light, unless the item was shiny & the light was blue. That "alien" argument gets weaker every time you use it, & doesn't account for the abuse of highlights across the board. I used Venom as an example, yes, but there are plenty of others.

im not mostly using the "alien" argument. have you never seen black/blue hair dye? or a car paint that appears black, but in direct sunlight shines dark blue? same concept.

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Old 06-19-2008, 03:43 PM   #44
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btw, in that batman pic, thats a style choice. as i believe it is with most batman pics. batman sometimes does wear a blue and grey outfit... sometimes its black and grey, sometimes he wears all black... etc... if someone wants to do the grey blue, i dont have a problem with it. but black panther we know wears black.... so yeah i see your argument there easily

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Old 06-19-2008, 08:53 PM   #45
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As a penciller, I can tell you this: You have to acceot that any inker worth his salt is going to add his own flavor to any work he touches. If an inker was there to just "go over the pencils" then inking wouldn't be a profession. Every inker I've ever seen or worked with added soem flair to the work....some going so far as to correct lighting issues. It's a failsafe that you shouldn't rely on, though. the less experienced inkers tend to say, "Not my problem", and that's why they don't make in in the door. The inkers who go that extra mile and enhance the work to which they contribute, those are the guys in the doors of Marvel and DC and the like.

It's all about the finished prodect. An inker can make or break a piece...whether the pencils were flawed or not.
QUite true.
But I've had some time to re-think your earlier post. And it DOES matter what color is used in the highlights. What if the black-suited character is standing in a well-lit area? Using blue to fill in where the shadows leave open results in what I was talking about initially.

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Old 06-19-2008, 08:59 PM   #46
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btw, in that batman pic, thats a style choice. as i believe it is with most batman pics. batman sometimes does wear a blue and grey outfit... sometimes its black and grey, sometimes he wears all black... etc... if someone wants to do the grey blue, i dont have a problem with it. but black panther we know wears black.... so yeah i see your argument there easily
As I've argued numerous times, Batman should NEVER wear blue. It doesn't fit his motif. He's supposed to be a dark, menacing creature of the night. Bats aren't blue. Shadows aren't blue. And the only reason he has ever worn blue at all is b/c of the very things that prompted me to open this thread. He was introduced in black & in black he should remain. And before somebody throws something about Spider-Man in my face, he never purported to be a creature of the night ("Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man) & he never was made out to look like a spider (Although Batman doesn't look like a bat, either, regardless what color he's wearing.)

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Old 06-19-2008, 10:23 PM   #47
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i dont have a problem with bats in a grey/blue.. sometimes i think it looks pretty great... esp in the pic you chose. though it would be akward in person i think

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Old 06-20-2008, 08:22 PM   #48
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im not mostly using the "alien" argument. have you never seen black/blue hair dye? or a car paint that appears black, but in direct sunlight shines dark blue?
Nope. Never. Not once. Which I've already stated. And since opening this thread & reading your posts, I've been paying especially close attention, looking for even one valid example.

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Old 06-20-2008, 09:17 PM   #49
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Having thought about it-I have NEVEREVEREVEREVER seen a black garment that looked blue. Never. Not once. And all your claims about shiny black surfaces reflecting blue light only hold water if there's actually some blue light present, which is typically not the case in any comic action scene, unless it's taking place in a club or something like that.
If something is shiny black, and it's outside in daytime conditions, it will most certainly reflect blue light.
This car is most certainly black. There are no blue lights on this car. It's reflecting the sky. Which a shiny surface will do.

I most certainly agree with you in some cases. But I disagree when saying "get rid of blue, use grays" it doesn't work that way. If you're good at interpreting the setting, you should be coloring with whatever color light would be reflecting off of the sheen/cloth.

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Old 06-20-2008, 10:36 PM   #50
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One-again, I never said "No blue, ever." In fact, I have even posted examples in which a healthy use of blue didn't harm the image.
And ok-there are some blue highlights on that car. But you know what? A car is not a garment. The principle is not the same, not at all. And note-in broad daylight, this cherry-clean, shiny car comes off predominantly black. And I see some grey tones in there as well. So in helping your case, you have also helped mine.

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