Bruce's dedication vs. his longing for Rachel-OUT OF CHARACTER?

[MAKIEVELLI]

When I saw BB something always bothered me about the fact that Rachel was the one who broke off the potential relationship with Bruce, it always seemed to me like Bruce would have given it all up to be with her. This seems out of character for Batman, one of the most dedicated and obsessed superheroes, if Spidey could walk away from the girl and he is like a soap opera with webs why can't Batman who is supposed to be ten times more dedicated. And in the 2nd movie we have the whole love triangle and again I get the feeling that Bruce would let his crime fighting take a backseat to Rachel if she so allowed it. It almost seems like unrequited love with what I've seen from the trailer and Bats should definitely have more control than that. And what the **** is up with Bats giving up his identity to her? So she wouldn't think of him as a prick anymore? I don't know, they really seem like they are making him needy and trying to humanize him too much. His obsession and dedication should outweight everything IMO

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

When I saw BB something always bothered me about the fact that Rachel was the one who broke off the potential relationship with Bruce, it always seemed to me like Bruce would have given it all up to be with her. This seems out of character for Batman, one of the most dedicated and obsessed superheroes, if Spidey could walk away from the girl and he is like a soap opera with webs why can't Batman who is supposed to be ten times more dedicated. And in the 2nd movie we have the whole love triangle and again I get the feeling that Bruce would let his crime fighting take a backseat to Rachel if she so allowed it. It almost seems like unrequited love with what I've seen from the trailer and Bats should definitely have more control than that. And what the **** is up with Bats giving up his identity to her? So she wouldn't think of him as a prick anymore? I don't know, they really seem like they are making him needy and trying to humanize him too much. His obsession and dedication should outweight everything IMO

So, she broke it off before he did....no big deal. He's obsessed, he would have left her sooner or later anyway. She saw how dedicated he was and knew it wouldn't go where she wanted it to between them.

[slicendice]

perhaps this is out of line...but why is this in the spoiler section?

[Simon Dark]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

When I saw BB something always bothered me about the fact that Rachel was the one who broke off the potential relationship with Bruce, it always seemed to me like Bruce would have given it all up to be with her. This seems out of character for Batman, one of the most dedicated and obsessed superheroes, if Spidey could walk away from the girl and he is like a soap opera with webs why can't Batman who is supposed to be ten times more dedicated. And in the 2nd movie we have the whole love triangle and again I get the feeling that Bruce would let his crime fighting take a backseat to Rachel if she so allowed it. It almost seems like unrequited love with what I've seen from the trailer and Bats should definitely have more control than that. And what the **** is up with Bats giving up his identity to her? So she wouldn't think of him as a prick anymore? I don't know, they really seem like they are making him needy and trying to humanize him too much. His obsession and dedication should outweight everything IMO

I agree....although it would naturally be easy (putting yourself in his shoes) to want to give up what you thought originally would be a temporary endeavor for the woman you love, it is much closer to classic Batman lore for his obsession and dedication to the mission to take priority in his life.

[batman_1982]

The story in Batman Mask of the Phantasm comes to mind, which had Bruce almost giving up his quest to fight crime and also the girl(Andrea I believe?) found out that Batman was Bruce.

[Solidus]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

When I saw BB something always bothered me about the fact that Rachel was the one who broke off the potential relationship with Bruce, it always seemed to me like Bruce would have given it all up to be with her. This seems out of character for Batman, one of the most dedicated and obsessed superheroes, if Spidey could walk away from the girl and he is like a soap opera with webs why can't Batman who is supposed to be ten times more dedicated. And in the 2nd movie we have the whole love triangle and again I get the feeling that Bruce would let his crime fighting take a backseat to Rachel if she so allowed it. It almost seems like unrequited love with what I've seen from the trailer and Bats should definitely have more control than that. And what the **** is up with Bats giving up his identity to her? So she wouldn't think of him as a prick anymore? I don't know, they really seem like they are making him needy and trying to humanize him too much. His obsession and dedication should outweight everything IMO

And what is wrong with humanizing him? That is the problem with Superman, and why I never liked him as a icon/hero/character. I could never connect with him. He was too god like. Thats why Batman draws so many people, yes he is obsessed with his mission to stop crime.

As it was said earlier in interviews about TDK, is that Bruce is thankful for Harvey Dent, because it looks like Batman may have done his job, and the city is cleaned up, and now some one else on the "lawful/political" side will step in and take the role as the "White Knight". So Batman will no longer be required. Yet of course this all unravels, and if you look at more spoilers including the names of the "tracks" on the soundtrack. It does appear that Bruce does understand he will always be Batman, and the city will always be in need of a hero such as himself. Because he started something that he has to finish. God knows when that will be.

TDK is about Bruce wanting to be normal again, and yet, he does understand later that he can not. With losing Harvey Dent, to the dark side, and people like the Joker causing un-hinged chaos. Bruce understands that he was wrong. One of the songs at the end of the soundtrack is called "I am the Batman!"

That is the point of the story, it does humanize him, yet it makes him a stronger Batman in the end. Instead of just always being the perfect Batman. Which I have never envisioned the character as such, which is why Superman always failed in my opinion in today's world, people don't like connecting with some one that is....beyond them to such an extent.

Like Nolan said, things are going to get worse before they get better. Bruce lets his guard down in hopes for a normal life, and that his mission is complete, but it shows it self, that his job will never be done. And that is the whole journey of TDK, if you take that out, *the stuff you are complaining about* you have no movie.

EDIT: As I live and breath its C. Lee, wow been a long time since I've seen ya around. Howdy to ya.

[BubbaGump]

It's what he does that defines him...

[Tha OG Crip]

i think its fine. the only thing my wife says about the love thing is "but why would she pick harvey dent over bruce" lol!

[gambit420]

I think that's the point of the film..even Bruce says it " I see what I have to become to stop men like him" maybe Joker gets a little TOO personal and just snaps him back into isolation...since he's already lost "something else that was dear to him"...

[Bayou Bat]

He knows he is the Batman. Even if he tried to give it up for Racahel he would be brought back to being the Batman and always feel the guilt for it. He knows it, Rachael knows it, hell we all know it.

[MAKIEVELLI]

Originally Posted by Bayou Bat

He knows he is the Batman. Even if he tried to give it up for Racahel he would be brought back to being the Batman and always feel the guilt for it. He knows it, Rachael knows it, hell we all know it.

Didn't you hear how flimsily he referred to his crimefighting persona at the end of BB? "Its just a mask." Personally, I don't find that very reassuring in the most dedicated man in the world..

[kyuubijavi1]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

When I saw BB something always bothered me about the fact that Rachel was the one who broke off the potential relationship with Bruce, it always seemed to me like Bruce would have given it all up to be with her. This seems out of character for Batman, one of the most dedicated and obsessed superheroes, if Spidey could walk away from the girl and he is like a soap opera with webs why can't Batman who is supposed to be ten times more dedicated. And in the 2nd movie we have the whole love triangle and again I get the feeling that Bruce would let his crime fighting take a backseat to Rachel if she so allowed it. It almost seems like unrequited love with what I've seen from the trailer and Bats should definitely have more control than that. And what the **** is up with Bats giving up his identity to her? So she wouldn't think of him as a prick anymore? I don't know, they really seem like they are making him needy and trying to humanize him too much. His obsession and dedication should outweight everything IMO

Well towards the Identity thing he gave it away mostly cause he thought he wouldnt come back just like she did and also gave it away in a very vague way, plus this is a more realistic take on the character so even though he is dedicated to his job he still hopes he can have a normal life which is what I got from the alternate trailer. In which he thinks his war on crime is coming to an end and he can just pick up his life the way he always pictured it before the accedent. Now from some interview that was in the Bruce section he stated that the difference between Batman and other superhero's is that instead of giving up the mantle he is faced into knowing he can never give it up and embraces it. So this little love affair is starting to turn out like Superman Returns in which Bruce thinks he can come back in her life while she is already starting to fall for some one else and it mostly seems like its going to be a huge ego battle between Bruce and Dent.

[Numez]

Come on, no one is looking forward to TDK anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

Didn't you hear how flimsily he referred to his crimefighting persona at the end of BB? "Its just a mask." Personally, I don't find that very reassuring in the most dedicated man in the world..

What he meant was....she shouldn't make such a big deal about him dressing up in it and fighting crime (it's just a mask)....because that's now part of his personality.

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by Numez

Come on, no one is looking forward to TDK anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Sounds like you are trying to troll...please leave now.

[Eggyman]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

Didn't you hear how flimsily he referred to his crimefighting persona at the end of BB? "Its just a mask." Personally, I don't find that very reassuring in the most dedicated man in the world..

You could go deeper than that though. When he says that, he sounds unsure - not only trying to kid her, but also trying to kid himself. Notice how he didn't argue the point when Rachel pointed out which was his real mask.

[TheBatman072]

Originally Posted by Eggyman

You could go deeper than that though. When he says that, he sounds unsure - not only trying to kid her, but also trying to kid himself. Notice how he didn't argue the point when Rachel pointed out which was his real mask.

Yep. He's trying to fool himself into thinking that Batman is just a cape and a cowl he can cast aside. When it goes so much more deeper than that.


And Bruce not wanting to be Batman anymore isn't out of character. Look at Batman: Ego(where I got that bit above from). That's all he wants, is a normal life free from darkness and madness. That's what he's fighting for. He's fighting for a world that doesn't NEED Batman. So he can STOP being Batman.

Just becuase he's really dedicated to his job doesn't mean he wants to DO his job.

Sadly, it DOES go deeper. The Batman persona is a deep, psychological scar in Bruce's pysche, which is why he'll never fully give up being Batman. Even in a world that wouldn't need him.

[Zohan Dvir]

I think the best argument to make is that he's still figuring things out. I know, I know in the comics yada yada yada he's had the obsession since he was a child yada yada yada. But its much more engaging to watch a person with conflicted feelings b/c its a reflection of the real world. The real world is painted in grey and full of inertia. Rachel represents his chance and hope to settle down and lead a normal life. He's gonna be conflicted by that no matter how dedicated he is to his mission. I think TDK has set itself up to really explore this issue.

[MAKIEVELLI]

Originally Posted by TheBatman072

Yep. He's trying to fool himself into thinking that Batman is just a cape and a cowl he can cast aside. When it goes so much more deeper than that.


And Bruce not wanting to be Batman anymore isn't out of character. Look at Batman: Ego(where I got that bit above from). That's all he wants, is a normal life free from darkness and madness. That's what he's fighting for. He's fighting for a world that doesn't NEED Batman. So he can STOP being Batman.

Just becuase he's really dedicated to his job doesn't mean he wants to DO his job.

Sadly, it DOES go deeper. The Batman persona is a deep, psychological scar in Bruce's pysche, which is why he'll never fully give up being Batman. Even in a world that wouldn't need him.

I don't mind him not wanting to be Batman, I just think its out of character for him to be acting like he would give up the mantle for a woman. I got that impression and I mentioned it in a thread a while ago and a couple of people agreed with me so I know I'm not the only one....

[TheBatman072]

Originally Posted by MAKIEVELLI

I don't mind him not wanting to be Batman, I just think its out of character for him to be acting like he would give up the mantle for a woman. I got that impression and I mentioned it in a thread a while ago and a couple of people agreed with me so I know I'm not the only one....

It's not just a woman.

Rachel represents everything normal in Bruce's life. He wants it all back.

[xwolverine2]

bruce is just sexually frustrated...

[Gilpesh]

Originally Posted by TheBatman072

It's not just a woman.

Rachel represents everything normal in Bruce's life. He wants it all back.

Yeah. She isn't just any woman. It's not like in the third one in Nolan's trilogy there's going to be a new woman for Bruce to just want to give Batman up for her.

[CaptainClown]

Originally Posted by Solidus

And what is wrong with humanizing him? That is the problem with Superman, and why I never liked him as a icon/hero/character. I could never connect with him. He was too god like. Thats why Batman draws so many people, yes he is obsessed with his mission to stop crime.

As it was said earlier in interviews about TDK, is that Bruce is thankful for Harvey Dent, because it looks like Batman may have done his job, and the city is cleaned up, and now some one else on the "lawful/political" side will step in and take the role as the "White Knight". So Batman will no longer be required. Yet of course this all unravels, and if you look at more spoilers including the names of the "tracks" on the soundtrack. It does appear that Bruce does understand he will always be Batman, and the city will always be in need of a hero such as himself. Because he started something that he has to finish. God knows when that will be.

TDK is about Bruce wanting to be normal again, and yet, he does understand later that he can not. With losing Harvey Dent, to the dark side, and people like the Joker causing un-hinged chaos. Bruce understands that he was wrong. One of the songs at the end of the soundtrack is called "I am the Batman!"

That is the point of the story, it does humanize him, yet it makes him a stronger Batman in the end. Instead of just always being the perfect Batman. Which I have never envisioned the character as such, which is why Superman always failed in my opinion in today's world, people don't like connecting with some one that is....beyond them to such an extent.

Like Nolan said, things are going to get worse before they get better. Bruce lets his guard down in hopes for a normal life, and that his mission is complete, but it shows it self, that his job will never be done. And that is the whole journey of TDK, if you take that out, *the stuff you are complaining about* you have no movie.

EDIT: As I live and breath its C. Lee, wow been a long time since I've seen ya around. Howdy to ya.

BATS DON'T LOVE! CURSE YOU NOLAN AND YOUR REALISM!
but ya I agree with what you said

[MasterOgami]

And its not so much about Bruce "giving it up for a woman" as it is Bruce believing "the mission" has an ending. When he feels that he's done what he can to rid Gotham of crime, he wants a normal life with Rachel. That's actually been done in books like Monster Men/Mad Monk.

When he said "Batman's just a symbol" in BB, I believe he meant it. In TDK, however, it looks like Bruce is going to realize that its become much more than that and that "the mission" -has- no end.

Edit - What Solidus said. Totally missed it up there.

[DiFabio]

Originally Posted by xwolverine2

bruce is just sexually frustrated...

He should have been a DA instead of a costumed vigilante. Rachel seems to have a thing for them considering she's always trying to get in their pants.