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Old 06-22-2013, 05:56 PM   #101
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
Spider-Man 2 is still my favorite comic book movie of all time, so no... I do NOT think its overrated. If anything, I think the movie is underrated now with movies like The Dark Knight and the Avengers.
I liked the Avengers, but it is highly overrated, along with the Nolan franchise

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Old 06-22-2013, 06:05 PM   #102
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I completely agree.
Probably, if not the greatest Super hero movie fight of all time

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Old 06-22-2013, 07:05 PM   #103
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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Without Spiderman 2, I highly doubt The Dark Knight franchise would have ever existed.
Elaborate, please.

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Old 06-22-2013, 08:40 PM   #104
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Elaborate, please.
Imo, it brought, at the time, unparalleled violence to a super hero, that previously not been used (with maybe the exception of the original Batman), in terms of the realism of the fights. Spiderman suit actually got messed up, and blood was loss. Secondly it was one of the first Super hero movies to show how the hero's powers were affecting everybody else and his surroundings, in a not so positive way. Lastly, it really gave you a sense of the guy behind the mask, and the realism of the depth of the protagonist as his regular identity during the train fight. Spiderman 2 is one of the best superhero movie of all times, unlike a lot of super hero flicks, it manages to capture the essence of the human side, which intern leaves it to be more realistic.

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:10 PM   #105
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If you want violence, take a look at the first Spider-Man film during the final battle. Spider-Man 2 didn't just create violence for superheroes nor did S-M 2 show a whole lot of blood compared to the previous installment.

Plus, I'm not sure if you're aware, but Spider-Man 2 was released in 2004 while Batman Begins was being filmed(in March of that year) as well as Nolan being hired back in 2003 to direct Batman Begins. S-M 2 didn't do anything to pave the way for Nolan's trilogy to be created. If any CBM is responsible, it's Superman: The Movie, where Nolan has mentioned multiple times of how that superhero flick was his inspiration.

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:13 PM   #106
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Look at the fight between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike in X-2. That was brutal and violent. She stabs the hell out of him during it, blood and all.

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #107
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

That fight was so damn good. Probably one of the best moments during Jackman's time as Wolverine, imo. That and when Stryker invaded the X-Mansion.

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:29 PM   #108
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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If you want violence, take a look at the first Spider-Man film during the final battle. Spider-Man 2 didn't just create violence for superheroes nor did S-M 2 show a whole lot of blood compared to the previous installment.

Plus, I'm not sure if you're aware, but Spider-Man 2 was released in 2004 while Batman Begins was being filmed(in March of that year) as well as Nolan being hired back in 2003 to direct Batman Begins. S-M 2 didn't do anything to pave the way for Nolan's trilogy to be created. If any CBM is responsible, it's Superman: The Movie, where Nolan has mentioned multiple times of how that superhero flick was his inspiration.
Didnt know that about the production, maybe it didn't have any influence on Batman Begins,, but I think it might of had some influence on the dark knight, and I didn't mean for violence to be my focal point in the argument. Sometimes my inner fanboy gets the worst of me....

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:36 PM   #109
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The Dark Knight rarely had any CBM inspiration(besides Superman '78), because it was mostly inspired by Heat since TDK was also a crime thriller hidden behind the mask of a CBM as well as creating a story that's basically involving a city as a whole. Also why TDK is mentioned as the better film of the trilogy because it deals with all of Gotham.

Spider-Man 2 is a phenomenal movie, and one of my best CBMs as well, but it didn't inspire any of the TDKTrilogy's films. What inspired both of Raimi's and Nolan's trilogy is Donnor's Superman.

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Old 06-22-2013, 09:49 PM   #110
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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The Dark Knight rarely had any CBM inspiration(besides Superman '78), because it was mostly inspired by Heat since TDK was also a crime thriller hidden behind the mask of a CBM as well as creating a story that's basically involving a city as a whole. Also why TDK is mentioned as the better film of the trilogy because it deals with all of Gotham.

Spider-Man 2 is a phenomenal movie, and one of my best CBMs as well, but it didn't inspire any of the TDKTrilogy's films. What inspired both of Raimi's and Nolan's trilogy is Donnor's Superman.
I do agree with you now, the only reason I had originally thought it might of had some inspiration from Spiderman 2 was because of an article I had read about last week, but through facts you mentioned, there is no way it had any inspiration took from it what so ever.

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Old 06-22-2013, 11:00 PM   #111
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SM2 felt overrated as soon as I watched it the second time...
The action sequences are still amazing.
But the out of costume interactions sounds so stiff and preachy..Aunt May is the worst offender.
What really sinks the boat for me though is the lack of charisma by all of the lead actors..Tobey, Dunst, Franco... they are all flat..

Jameson and pretty much everyone at the Bugle came off great though, wouldnt change any of them.

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Old 06-22-2013, 11:14 PM   #112
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Tobey, Franco, and the rest of the cast, bar Dunst, were all on top form in this movie, IMO. I don't know how you could view their acting as flat. You could see the energy and enthusiasm in their performances.

The scene where Aunt May breaks down crying about Ben when she gives Peter the 20 bucks on his birthday. Drunk Harry slapping Peter. Peter and Ben's meeting in the car in Peter's dream. Peter's confession to Aunt May about Uncle Ben's death. Any scene with Alfred Molina's Doc Ock. The web scene with Peter and MJ. 'Go get 'em tiger' scene. Harry's discovery that Peter is Spider-Man. Harry seeing his father in the mirror etc.

The movie is bursting with top notch scenes with great performances from the cast.

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Old 06-22-2013, 11:55 PM   #113
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

I was never sold on Raimi's version of Aunt May, but I LOVE the scene of her trying to give Peter money for his birthday. Something my own aunt tried to do when I first moved out of my parents house and was having a rough couple of months before I settled in.

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Old 06-23-2013, 12:00 AM   #114
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All those scenes read great but just felt flat in execution....

Some scenes really did work though..
-Peter and Doc Ock before his accident
-Harrys "He humiliated me by touching me"
-Harry talking to Norman

The "go get'em tiger" was just horrible, its supposed to convey to spidey that everything will be alright and that this new dynamic with being spiderman and having mary jane is a great thing...the delivery fails, it almost sounds as unwilling resignation to things.

It just annoys me that from the beginning of the film it just feels that the weight of the world is just crushing all these characters..they just lack resiliency, sure conflict eventually gives them something terrible to overcome but right from the beginning of the film you have people whose lives feel incomplete and miserable.

In the beginning when he runs into the alley to deliver the pizza he bursts out with a big shout of joy as he speeds to deliver the pizza as spiderman and you think that hes got a handle on things..but its all for naught, the scene turns immediately joyless because he gets fired... One of the few things I enjoyed about Spiderman and Spiderman 3 is that he at least has some joy in those movies..... You could argue that spiderman 2 is about him learning to truly accept his "destiny" but thats a cop out.


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Old 06-23-2013, 12:41 AM   #115
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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All those scenes read great but just felt flat in execution....
Either you have ridiculously high standards, and I know that can't be the case because you like the emotionally lacking Batman '89 movie, or you're just very critical of Raimi's movies, because I really cannot grasp how you can feel they fell flat.

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The "go get'em tiger" was just horrible, its supposed to convey to spidey that everything will be alright and that this new dynamic with being spiderman and having mary jane is a great thing...the delivery fails, it almost sounds as unwilling resignation to things.
How did you perceive it as that? The smiles Peter and MJ give each other, the epic music, the way MJ runs like an excited school girl to the window to watch Spidey swing away. It was all such a feel good feeling scene.

"Isn't it about time somebody saved your life?"

Greatness.

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It just annoys me that from the beginning of the film it just feels that the weight of the world is just crushing all these characters..they just lack resiliency, sure conflict eventually gives them something terrible to overcome but right from the beginning of the film you have people whose lives feel incomplete and miserable.
Apart from Peter, who else is feeling this way from the beginning? MJ has a thriving new career and a new boyfriend. Harry is heading up special projects at Oscorp. Even Aunt May isn't letting her mortgage problem get her down, and is quite happy to move to an apartment in the city.

Peter's the one who's got the burden on his shoulders with the weighty responsibility of being Spider-Man messing up his life.

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In the beginning when he runs into the alley to deliver the pizza he bursts out with a big shout of joy as he speeds to deliver the pizza as spiderman and you think that hes got a handle on things..but its all for naught, the scene turns immediately joyless because he gets fired...
Classic Peter Parker luck.

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One of the few things I enjoyed about Spiderman and Spiderman 3 is that he at least has some joy in those movies
He had plenty of joy moments in this one. Meeting Octavius. Reconnecting with MJ at her play. The scene with Aunt May in the back yard. The scene with Ursula, the Landlord's daughter. The whole raindrops segment. He and MJ becoming an item at the end etc.

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You could argue that spiderman 2 is about him learning to truly accept his "destiny" but thats a cop out.
No it's not. It's actually dead on right. Peter lost his way and thought he could abandon the responsibility of being Spider-Man for a normal life. That's the great parallel they make between him and Octavius.

Peter is being irresponsible by giving up the responsibility of being Spider-Man so he can live his dream of a normal life. Otto is being irresponsible by doing evil things in order to make his dream happen. By the end of the movie they both come full circle and accept responsibility for their actions and who they are.

It's for reasons like this and more that Spider-Man 2 is one of the best.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:08 AM   #116
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Either you have ridiculously high standards, and I know that can't be the case because you like the practically emotionally dead Batman '89 movie, or you're just very critical of Raimi's movies, because I really cannot grasp how you can feel they fell flat.

Hey! you cant use Batman '89 being emotionally dead as an argument, thats part of his schtick...plus I love Raimi, for every little negative complaint I have with Spiderman 2 theres an equal amount of things to love in that movie as well as the original.



How did you perceive it as that? The smiles Peter and MJ give each other, the epic music, the way MJ runs like an excited school girl to the window to watch Spidey swing away. It was all such a feel good feeling scene.
"Isn't it about time somebody saved your life?"
Greatness.
The smile felt apprehensive, Spidey swinging away was exciting and dynamic but the way the music wound down and the way the screen went to dark with MJs expression actually seemed to hint at dark days ahead, as if she felt their decision was sending them down a bad path or something..cause she sure as hell wasnt smiling when the screen went dark



Apart from Peter, who else is feeling this way from the beginning? MJ has a thriving new career and a new boyfriend. Harry is heading up special projects at Oscorp. Even Aunt May isn't letting her mortgage problem get her down, and is quite happy to move to an apartment in the city.

Yeah thats all good an nice but after Spiderman you know whats bubbling beneath all these characters, going in you know harrys issue with spiderman, MJ wants to be with Peter but cant understand why she rejects him..etc etc.

Classic Peter Parker luck.
Kicked in too soon

He had plenty of joy moments in this one. Meeting Octavius. Yeah as I said that was well done
Reconnecting with MJ at her play. The scene with Aunt May in the back yard. Again the conversation, the preachiness and delivery ugh
The scene with Ursula, the Landlord's daughter. The whole raindrops segment.Raindrops is amazing no argument there
He and MJ becoming an item at the end etc. He should be happy but it feels hollow due to their reactions as seen in the scene where they get together



No it's not. It's actually dead on right. Peter lost his way and thought he could abandon the responsibility of being Spider-Man for a normal life. That's the great parallel they make between him and Octavius.

Peter is being irresponsible by giving up the responsibility of being Spider-Man so he can live his dream of a normal life. Otto is being irresponsible by doing evil things in order to make his dream happen. By the end of the movie they both come full circle and accept responsibility for their actions and who they are.

Its true but where did Spiderman end? with Peter walking away from MJ and embracing his destiny...how does Spiderman 2 begin? with a picture of MJ and whining (actually it begins with an amazing credits sequence). He accepted his responsibility why start up with him beaten right off the bat, why not let him have some fun at the start before starting to pour on the misery?

It's for reasons like this and more that Spider-Man 2 is one of the best. It is no arguments but should have been significantly better..it should be the best Marvel movie to be honest...

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:22 AM   #117
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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Hey! you cant use Batman '89 being emotionally dead as an argument, thats part of his schtick...plus I love Raimi, for every little negative complaint I have with Spiderman 2 theres an equal amount of things to love in that movie as well as the original.
I'm not talking about Batman as a character, I mean the movie itself overall. It lacks emotional resonance. I say that as someone who enjoys it, but it's one of the most emotionally lacking Batman movies. I find it hard to believe for every complaint you have that you have something you love since you feel the cast for the most part fell flat. I mean if they don't work for you then the movie is pretty much lost. The cast is the main part of the movie.

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The smile felt apprehensive, Spidey swinging away was exciting and dynamic but the way the music wound down and the way the screen went to dark with MJs expression actually seemed to hint at dark days ahead, as if she felt their decision was sending them down a bad path or something..cause she sure as hell wasnt smiling when the screen went dark
The smile was anything but apprehensive. You could tell she was happy and so was Peter. The winding down scene was showing MJ's concern for watching the guy she loves going off to risk his life to fight the bad guys.

It was a nice somber ending to the scene. MJ wasn't just seeing this a thrill seeking "Hey I'm Spidey's girlfriend" type situation. She knew the risks she'd taken on, too.

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Yeah thats all good an nice but after Spiderman you know whats bubbling beneath all these characters, going in you know harrys issue with spiderman, MJ wants to be with Peter but cant understand why she rejects him..etc etc.
Well of course every character has to have a conflict to over come. You said everyone is miserable from the get-go. They're not. Far from it.

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Kicked in too soon
Name a Spidey movie where it doesn't. Take the first movie for example. In the first 3 minutes he's chasing his school bus, and then tripped up when he finally gets on it after everyone on the bus won't let him sit beside them.

As I said, classic Peter Parker luck.

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Again the conversation, the preachiness and delivery ugh
It doesn't matter how preachy you found it, the point is it was a feel good moment for Peter. He was happy. He made his peace with Aunt May, then she revealed what a big Spidey booster she was.

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He should be happy but it feels hollow due to their reactions as seen in the scene where they get together
Elaborate please. What was hollow about their reactions? Try and use quotes to help illustrate your point if you can.

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Its true but where did Spiderman end? with Peter walking away from MJ and embracing his destiny...how does Spiderman 2 begin? with a picture of MJ and whining (actually it begins with an amazing credits sequence). He accepted his responsibility why start up with him beaten right off the bat, why not let him have some fun at the start before starting to pour on the misery?
That's the point. He decided to cut MJ out of his life romantically, but that didn't mean he hated that he had to make that decision and still wanted her badly.

The responsibility of being Spider-Man was having bad effects on his life, not just with MJ. He was missing classes, losing jobs, getting alienated from his friends and Aunt etc. Were these things we saw in SM-1? No. His life suffered no bad effects from being Spider-Man in the first movie.

This was a new direction for Peter, and he finally had enough and threw in the towel. The lesson he had to learn was no matter how bad things get, he can't turn his back on the responsibility of being Spider-Man just so he can have a normal life.

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It is no arguments but should have been significantly better..it should be the best Marvel movie to be honest.
Well it depends who you ask. Some do consider it to be. Me for example

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:39 AM   #118
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I'm not talking about Batman as a character, I mean the movie itself overall. It lacks emotional resonance. I find it hard to believe for every complaint you have that you have something you love since you feel the cast for the most part fell flat. I mean if they don't work for you then the movie is pretty much lost. The cast is the main part of the movie.

If we talk Batman '89 cast/performances it gets it just as bad no argument there...I see its flaws as well but like Spiderman 2 the spectacle, nostalgia and inherent love of the character is enough to enjoy it warts and all...But yeah Vicki Vale, horrible.

I will stop here because at some point it almost comes off as arguing for arguments sake...it also begins to seem that I am in a camp that hates the movie (very far from it). I merely replied that I do agree that it is overrated.


Well it depends who you ask. Some do consider it to be. Me for example [B]Fair enough, and lucky for us all we live in times when everyone is getting their superhero fix in one way or another. I get my Spidey fix from watching Spectacular (despite peter being an ass to Liz).[/QUOTE]

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Old 06-23-2013, 09:54 AM   #119
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Fair enough. Good talking to you.

Btw I love Spectacular Spider-Man

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Old 06-23-2013, 10:05 AM   #120
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Yes i personally think SM2 is overrated, i admit there is some great directing by raimi and interesting ideas. i like the bank and building fight with Doc ock but overall its pretty basic and overly ambitious in some parts.

i never liked peter losing his powers through most of the film let alone for it to be brought back when the girl he cares for is kidnapped, it felt too Cliché and pretty predictable.

and one of the worst spider-man movie moments for me is the unmasked train stuff, it just felt so out of place and it really took me out of the movie and then few min later we get harry about to unmask spider-man and all i can think is well nearly a whole train of people see you unmasked... so for me this just doesn't have the shock value anymore, and then it was done again later with MJ which was also mean't to be this shocking moment.

i think it was way to ambitious with trying to make something HUGE and shocking

oh yeah and MJ comes across as a real ***** to any man in her life lol

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:15 AM   #121
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

I For me it was my favourite in the Rami series. I think I just don't like Dunst in the series, I personally found her annoying and to be honest I couldn't have cared if she died lol. Also Peter Parker was totally friend zoned...

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:24 AM   #122
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

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Look at the fight between Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike in X-2. That was brutal and violent. She stabs the hell out of him during it, blood and all.
Yeah, but it's easy when you know the guy will heal from everything immediately.

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:11 PM   #123
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

Getting ready to rewatch Spiderman 2 for the first time in almost 4 years. Will post thoughts and updated rating later

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:40 PM   #124
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I definitely think SM2 is overrated. The whole love story where Pete declares his love when MJ's not ready, and than MJ comes back and says yes and Pete says no, and then Pete says yes again but now Mj's not ready blahblahblah. The was horrible. As was much of MJ's story and characterization which made me feel stupid for defending her in the first one to many people who didnt like her. I don't think the special effects are as good as everyone says. They used a noticably CGI Spiderman in scenes where they really didn't have to. They amped up Dr. Octopus's strength for some reason which always bugged me. That's a little thing by itself but with everything else it adds up. I don't like that they switched Doc Ock from mad scientist to hopeless romantic. They could have sold it well if he went mad because of lost love instead of just being hijacked by smart tentacles. I think JJ got a little too cartoony this time around. JK Simmons still makes it funny, but it speaks to the whole tone of the movie. There is a severe melodramatic Shumacher-Batman vibe to the whole thing. The montage of Pete trying not to be Spidey was a momentum killer on par with the bike scene in Butch and Sundance (even used the same damn song). The train was good until he Spiderman had to stop the train which I thought was a silly and the scene of them passengers helping him to be too corny. James Franco's last scene was a saving grace. I thought that was really well done.

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Old 08-16-2013, 02:20 PM   #125
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Default Re: Who thought SM2 was Overrated?

It was my favourite CB film back in the day but I rewatched it and I do think it is overrated.
My only gripes were that in the first half anyway Peter stayed the same as his pre-bite 616 version in that he is a pushover, arguably more so as he never sticks up for himself at all. Other than "Here's your change!" There are no spidey quips even in the non-serious moments. I wanted Dunst to jump off a building, she kept moving around Peter and John.

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