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Old 05-28-2008, 05:57 PM   #101
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Default Re: How to create a strong connection with audience

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Now you`re exageratting, Payaso...

The arguments come for a reason. If SR was everyone`s cup, we wouldn`t be discussing and a sequel would be being made right now.
Then again no movie, SR included, has be everyone's cup of tea.

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Old 05-28-2008, 10:43 PM   #102
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This is why SR is so awful. We are discussing whether or not the hero used protection when he had sex with his love interest. A superhero film and this is the kind of stuff we have to deal with!!!
Only because so many insist on caring about such things. When the smart thing to do would be to just let it go, as that's hardly what's important about the movie or the characters, and focus on the current themes and character interactions that are going on.

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Old 05-28-2008, 10:56 PM   #103
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Default Re: How to create a strong connection with audience

This sequel needs to have the strong connection that Iron Man had with the audience. It needs to be fun and entertaining, which is something SR lacked.

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Old 05-28-2008, 11:59 PM   #104
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I haven't seen Iron Man yet, been waiting to go see it with my big bro, but I hope MOS doesn't have as much humor in it as IM appears to have. I like the more serious tone.

I think Batman Begins hit the right note as far as humor goes, and MOS should be similar to that

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:08 AM   #105
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Eh, I think the humor was well done in Iron Man. Granted, I don't think Superman is the kind of character that lends himself to the humor of Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man, but I think they could infuse the franchise with the more lively tone of Iron Man, including a bit more humor.

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:26 AM   #106
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Yea but unprotected sex doesn't always mean pregnancy. I know this all too well, (thankfully no babies)
But sex with someone does create an obligation toward that person pregnancy or not, protection or not....

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:28 AM   #107
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Some rantings..........

Remove all the connections with destiny, god-hood, etc.
People worship gods they don't connect with them.

Take Superman back to his roots. The sole inspiration for his "mission" is his upbringing with The Kents, an upbringing fortified by the rural and ideal Capra-esque setting of Smallville, and not some spiritual destiny driven plan of Jor-el, or any similar device. He is the product of his nurturing, period. Divest the character totally of all the saviour mumbo jumbo. His ethical behaviour is impeccable, exibiting exemplary application of the "Golden Rule", and his mission is un-ashamedly stated to be "The fight for truth, justice, and the American Way".

Reduce his powers from god-like to super-man like. At his present power level he can do virtually anything. There is no drama in any scenario if our hero can lift islands up and into orbit, turn back time, etc.! He must strive to succeed; people don't connect with miracles, people do connect with a hero finding clever methods to overcome adversity, methods that make sense, relatable super-feats.

Presently the only mechanism available to create drama is Green K, and that's quite frankly getting boring. Down grade his abilities and you don't need the dramatic crutch of Green K at all.

Lois and Superman are not romantically involved in a relationship, sure the attraction is there, but it should never reach the point of an intimate romance, that's just boring. People don't connect with boring. Clark and Lois are top notch investigative reporters, and their efforts are crucial in resolving the plot of the film.

Write stories in which humans are able to operate without total dependancy on Superman. Show instances where rescues are successfully accomplished by humans alone and at times by the efforts of man and Superman acting as a team.
Good suggestions all around- you're really getting to the essence of the characters...

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:29 AM   #108
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Didn't say it was by you. But the fact that it gets brought up at all is a sad commentary on SR.
But that's the stupid story Singer chose to tell and the poor execution of the story that even allows room for the discussion.

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:30 AM   #109
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No movie should be measured by the degree of futililty of the arguments some fans can come up with. I can start discussing whether Batman wore underwear under the suit or not and that's no sign of any Batman movie being bad.
Whether Batman wears underwear is completely irrelevant-

In SR Lois had SUperman's baby, the details of that sexual encounter are relevant.


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Old 05-29-2008, 12:32 AM   #110
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But sex with someone does create an obligation toward that person pregnancy or not, protection or not....

So if he had not had sex with Lois do you feel it was still ok for him to go to Krypton?

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:34 AM   #111
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Only because so many insist on caring about such things.
Like relevant plot issues?
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When the smart thing to do would be to just let it go, as that's hardly what's , and focus on the current themes and character interactions that are going on.
Jason conception is certainly "important about the movie (and) the characters" and is relevant to "the current themes and character interactions that are going on."

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:36 AM   #112
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So if he had not had sex with Lois do you feel it was still ok for him to go to Krypton?
It was OK for him to go eventhough he had had sex with Lois. He just needed to be honest with her about what he was doing (going to Krypton)and why he was doing it- before the fact.

To answer the question somewhat more directly it all depends on their relationship. If they were not romantically involved and were just in a celebrity/reporter relationship, then no he didn't need to say goodbye. But if he had any sort of commitment at all, then he should have said goodbye. Period.

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Old 05-29-2008, 12:45 AM   #113
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I can see why he should have told her, but I can also see why he chose not. Itis difficult to say what he should have done.

I think the important part was that he was sorry about it. I'm curious if in the Return to Krypton scene if Superman had any flashbacks of Lois.

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Old 05-29-2008, 01:02 AM   #114
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I can see why he should have told her, but I can also see why he chose not. Itis difficult to say what he should have done.
Why do you think that? Why would it have been right for him not to say goodbye? The results of the situation indicate it was clearly wrong. How does Lois not knowing benefit her, Jason, Richard?

I don't think it's presented as a choice- it's presented as an inability (character flaw) to do the right thing, the good thing, the decent thing.

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I think the important part was that he was sorry about it.
That's what Singer wants you to think.
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I'm curious if in the Return to Krypton scene if Superman had any flashbacks of Lois.
Don't think so, anyone know more?


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Old 05-29-2008, 03:27 AM   #115
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Yea but unprotected sex doesn't always mean pregnancy. I know this all too well, (thankfully no babies)
If you know it all to well you will also know that when a man and a woman have unprotected sex that to end it all of the man ejaculates. So Superman sleeps with Lois ejaculates in her and doesnt think there might be anything wrong with that? I am sure the hardcore SR lovers are probably going to state he probably didnt think an alien could get a human pregnant, well if thats your excuse then his a fool for not taking precautions and very irresponsible and those a things Superman is not.

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Old 05-29-2008, 03:29 AM   #116
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Well first they need to cast actors the fans like! Then get a director who knows the characters, and does this as a labor of love for the comics, and not the Donner movies! THEN! They need to make a movie that is worth watching, and worthy of our connection to it... Then, and only THEN! [1]

Will there be a Superman movie that does IRON MAN numbers... BATMAN BEGINS had much more going against it (Batman & Robin, Catwomen) which was the reason why it made only 200million domestically, and now that the whole world saw with caution how great BATMAN BEGINS was I expect the sequel to be twice as big in the boxoffice... Superman had a slightly bigger budget (20+ production and about 60million for marketing), and tho it made slightly less then BATMAN here in the US Batman had so much more to overcome, it ended up making a profit in theaters while SR didn't turn a profit until recently on dvd!!! Because of this reason it's why SR is seen as a failure! It should have made at least no less then 300million domestic![2]

IT'S FRICKEN SUPERMAN PEOPLE!!! This is the big one here! I mean COME ON! If done right Superman is the greatest of all the Superheros!

This is why BATMAN BEGINS got it's sequel, and I expect TDK to be BIG!!! Bigger then IRON MAN!

But that's because BATMAN BEGINS had amazing word of mouth, and it's build up a cult following like no other DC movie has ever! And with Ledgers death the movie has even more hype!!

But Superman Returns has had nothing but negativity from the start attached to it, and it's not a Superman curse!!! It's a Singerman curse![3]
[1] - That's a highly subjective matter, and you should probably treat it as such. It's like proving a mathematical relation is true for one example, and then saying that its true for all examples (without proof).

Sorry, but I am a mathematician (and a physicist).

[2] - I agree. SR should've done better at the American BO. However, that isn't to say it failed (who knows how much the studio got from overseas BO?). And it's obvious that it didn't abjectly fail since Showtime is suggesting that MoS is stirring from its coma.

[3] - Nothing but negativity, eh? Then explain the $200 million at the US BO, and $191 million worldwide? Let's face it, that's still a pretty big number. And to blame it all on Singer is a bit rich, given that WB greenlit the movie, and some people obviously liked it (myself included), despite its flaws.

Really, the reasons for MoS being delayed are simple: Singer wanted to do Valkyrie first, and WB wanted to explore its other options with Superman (as manifested in the now comatose Justice League: Mortal). The money is there for a Superman sequel. If SR has done anything, it has shown how not to make a Superman movie (and thus, serves the analogy to ST:TMP, and MoS' analogy to ST2:TWoK). And while TWoK grossed less than TMP, the former is still regarded today as the best Star Trek movie, and one of the best sci fi movies ever made.

To make the dough, MoS needs humour yes. It needs a slightly lighter tone. But apart from that, I don't want to see too many changes to the world SR showed. They need to tweak it, yes, but not to the point at which the ought to be rebooting it.

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Old 05-29-2008, 03:33 AM   #117
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It's more of a sad commentary on fanboys who obssess too much over details on a movie they don't even like.
Cant blame people for wondering how Superman and Lois have sex or how he even gets any sort of pleasure from it as his whole body is well Super.

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Old 05-29-2008, 03:35 AM   #118
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[1] - That's a highly subjective matter, and you should probably treat it as such. It's like proving a mathematical relation is true for one example, and then saying that its true for all examples (without proof).

Sorry, but I am a mathematician (and a physicist).

[2] - I agree. SR should've done better at the American BO. However, that isn't to say it failed (who knows how much the studio got from overseas BO?). And it's obvious that it didn't abjectly fail since Showtime is suggesting that MoS is stirring from its coma.

[3] - Nothing but negativity, eh? Then explain the $200 million at the US BO, and $191 million worldwide? Let's face it, that's still a pretty big number. And to blame it all on Singer is a bit rich, given that WB greenlit the movie, and some people obviously liked it (myself included), despite its flaws.

Really, the reasons for MoS being delayed are simple: Singer wanted to do Valkyrie first, and WB wanted to explore its other options with Superman (as manifested in the now comatose Justice League: Mortal). The money is there for a Superman sequel. If SR has done anything, it has shown how not to make a Superman movie (and thus, serves the analogy to ST:TMP, and MoS' analogy to ST2:TWoK). And while TWoK grossed less than TMP, the former is still regarded today as the best Star Trek movie, and one of the best sci fi movies ever made.

To make the dough, MoS needs humour yes. It needs a slightly lighter tone. But apart from that, I don't want to see too many changes to the world SR showed. They need to tweak it, yes, but not to the point at which the ought to be rebooting it.
Then the film will flop again.

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Old 05-29-2008, 03:39 AM   #119
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Why do you think that? Why would it have been right for him not to say goodbye? The results of the situation indicate it was clearly wrong. How does Lois not knowing benefit her, Jason, Richard?

I don't think it's presented as a choice- it's presented as an inability (character flaw) to do the right thing, the good thing, the decent thing.
A 'character flaw' that is corrected by the end of the movie. Or, in my view, a mistake that is rectified by the end of the movie.

Should he have said goodbye before he left for Krypton? Probably. Does that mean that he can't say goodbye? Nope. And does he say goodbye to Lois before he goes back to New Krypton? You bet.

So, I can't exactly see your problem mego. He does end up rectifying the problem, and having the guts to say goodbye, even if he might never see Lois again. And your problem is...

Let me guess - still with the event 5 years ago (according to the movie) that we know very little about.

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Old 05-29-2008, 08:24 AM   #120
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I don't think it's presented as a choice- it's presented as an inability (character flaw) to do the right thing, the good thing, the decent thing.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by wellsy
So, I can't exactly see your problem mego. He does end up rectifying the problem, and having the guts to say goodbye, even if he might never see Lois again.
The problem overall is that this Superman is a classic example of the tragic hero, and yet the story does not reach the proper conclusion for such a tale.

A tragic hero is usually basically a good person who strives to do right, though due to a character flaw(often very "human" in nature) he fails. The hero may rectify the error, but a tragic tale never has a happy ending.

The rectifying frequently costing the hero dearly, sometimes his familial and domestic life is irreperably altered, or more often his error results in his death. Whatever the mechanism the hero must suffer greatly all due to his shortcomings.

In SR we have a Superman who leaves Earth sans any farewell. Clearly the intent of the film is to demonstrate that this(no farewell) is an error in judgement, an egregious error that creates all the conflict of the film. We as posters both pro and con for the film seem to agree on this point.

However the film does not carry thru on the proper ending for a tragedy. We see Superman suffer, the beating, and we see him very close to death; again elements of a tragic hero, but ultimately this hero does not pay for his error. He may regret deeply his error, he may have learned his lesson, but in the case of SR he comes off scott free, and that ending for the telling of tragic hero's tale comes of as hollow and meaningless.

SR was a classic tragic hero's tale, yet the ending was not, and that is IMO where the problem lies.

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Old 05-29-2008, 08:35 AM   #121
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Why do you think that? Why would it have been right for him not to say goodbye? The results of the situation indicate it was clearly wrong. How does Lois not knowing benefit her, Jason, Richard?
It can be very difficult to explain that you are leaving not only Lois, but mankind for so long. Maybe he felt like if he had this talk with Lois he would have looked at her and not found it within himself to leave.
And by the way, Superman did not know Richard when he left, nor was Jason around so they didn't factor in his decision. But even still I can see why people feel he should have said something to Lois. I'm just saying I can see both sides feel like each are fine.


That's how he made feel, so good for him!


Hopefully we'll get to see the RTK scene someday

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Old 05-29-2008, 10:27 AM   #122
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[1] - That's a highly subjective matter, and you should probably treat it as such. It's like proving a mathematical relation is true for one example, and then saying that its true for all examples (without proof).

Sorry, but I am a mathematician (and a physicist).

[2] - I agree. SR should've done better at the American BO. However, that isn't to say it failed (who knows how much the studio got from overseas BO?). And it's obvious that it didn't abjectly fail since Showtime is suggesting that MoS is stirring from its coma.

[3] - Nothing but negativity, eh? Then explain the $200 million at the US BO, and $191 million worldwide? Let's face it, that's still a pretty big number. And to blame it all on Singer is a bit rich, given that WB greenlit the movie, and some people obviously liked it (myself included), despite its flaws.

Really, the reasons for MoS being delayed are simple: Singer wanted to do Valkyrie first, and WB wanted to explore its other options with Superman (as manifested in the now comatose Justice League: Mortal). The money is there for a Superman sequel. If SR has done anything, it has shown how not to make a Superman movie (and thus, serves the analogy to ST:TMP, and MoS' analogy to ST2:TWoK). And while TWoK grossed less than TMP, the former is still regarded today as the best Star Trek movie, and one of the best sci fi movies ever made.

To make the dough, MoS needs humour yes. It needs a slightly lighter tone. But apart from that, I don't want to see too many changes to the world SR showed. They need to tweak it, yes, but not to the point at which the ought to be rebooting it.
Great post.

But I think that if we go by the reviews, most people liked the movie. With a rating of 77% at rotten tomatoes, 7 out of 10 liked the movie. And to say that the film flopped it's ridiculous. It 'underperformed' in WB's view because of the prod. budget and high expectations, but other than that, it is obvious that a lot of people went to see the movie. And by the good dvd sales, I'd say that lots of people enjoyed SR and would see a sequel, especially if the trailers and marketing are more 'dynamic' and action-packed. No doubt.

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Old 05-29-2008, 11:04 AM   #123
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Like relevant plot issues?
Whether the man ejaculated or had unprotected sex with Lois Lane is not a relevant plot issue.

I do not understand how you all can reduce Superman and Lois's interactions to the mechanics of what "may have happened" based on what you think you know about their relationship.

Distilling such a beautiful act to "a man ejaculates in a woman and a kid is born" is just absurd.

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Jason conception is certainly "important about the movie (and) the characters" and is relevant to "the current themes and character interactions that are going on."
Jason's birth is important. But you all aren't talking about any of the important elements of that, or about how he was born of Lois and Superman's love. You're all just talking about how irresponsible Superman was, and about the mechanics of their sex.

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So, I can't exactly see your problem mego. He does end up rectifying the problem, and having the guts to say goodbye, even if he might never see Lois again. And your problem is...
His problem is:
1. Superman had sex
2. Superman had sex out of wedlock, without revealing he was Clark Kent (even though we don't KNOW if he did or not. Who knows what happened?)
3. Superman didn't allow his life to revolve around whether or not he might conceivably have fathered a child
4. Superman is portrayed as flawed.

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The problem overall is that this Superman is a classic example of the tragic hero, and yet the story does not reach the proper conclusion for such a tale.
Interesting outlook. I don't completely disagree, but what would you say the proper conclusion for such a tale would have been? And is this really a tragedy?

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A tragic hero is usually basically a good person who strives to do right, though due to a character flaw(often very "human" in nature) he fails. The hero may rectify the error, but a tragic tale never has a happy ending.
Then maybe it's not a tragic tale. Maybe it just, as many dramas do, has tragic elements for the hero. I don't think we need to fit every story we see into boxes.

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The rectifying frequently costing the hero dearly, sometimes his familial and domestic life is irreperably altered, or more often his error results in his death. Whatever the mechanism the hero must suffer greatly all due to his shortcomings.
Indeed.

Quote:
In SR we have a Superman who leaves Earth sans any farewell. Clearly the intent of the film is to demonstrate that this(no farewell) is an error in judgement, an egregious error that creates all the conflict of the film. We as posters both pro and con for the film seem to agree on this point.
Yup.

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However the film does not carry thru on the proper ending for a tragedy.
Then it's not a tragedy.

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We see Superman suffer, the beating, and we see him very close to death; again elements of a tragic hero, but ultimately this hero does not pay for his error.
Sure he does. Lex Luthor is released from prison to wreak havoc, and Superman has essentially lost the love of his life, as well as his most important ties to his Kryptonian heritage. I would argue that this is a tale of tragedy and redemption.

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He may regret deeply his error, he may have learned his lesson, but in the case of SR he comes off scott free, and that ending for the telling of tragic hero's tale comes of as hollow and meaningless.
How has he come off scott free? He can no longer be with Lois, and while he now knows he has a son, and cherishes this fact, he can't really be with him either, as his son is being raised by another man.

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Old 05-29-2008, 11:44 AM   #124
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Then maybe it's not a tragic tale. Maybe it just, as many dramas do, has tragic elements for the hero. I don't think we need to fit every story we see into boxes.
But the elements of SR seem to clearly delineate the box to which it belongs.

A tragic tale includes a hero who........

Is of noble birth....check.
Is flawed or exhibits an error in judgement......check.
The flaw or error creates a reversal of fortune for the hero.........check.
A realization by the hero that his error has caused the reversal of fortune.......check.

The boxes are checked, SR is a tragic tale.

That being said................

Quote:
How has he come off scott free? He can no longer be with Lois, and while he now knows he has a son, and cherishes this fact, he can't really be with him either, as his son is being raised by another man.
In relation to the proper ending for a tragic tale, he's got it pretty good, IMO.

Let's not forget that in SR, there is at least a mock death for our hero. The problem is that the tale did not have the courage to deliver the cour de grace, the death of Superman, which by the way would have nicely wrapped up this "Donner" universe of Superman, clearing the way for a completely new vision or allow for a third film in which the son of Superman is raised by Lois and Richard, that would effectively culminate the Donner-verse in a trilogy. Instead it delivered, for a tragedy, a very out of place, ill fitting, and clumsy happy ending.

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Old 05-29-2008, 11:57 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by SatEL View Post
If you know it all to well you will also know that when a man and a woman have unprotected sex that to end it all of the man ejaculates. So Superman sleeps with Lois ejaculates in her and doesnt think there might be anything wrong with that? I am sure the hardcore SR lovers are probably going to state he probably didnt think an alien could get a human pregnant, well if thats your excuse then his a fool for not taking precautions and very irresponsible and those a things Superman is not.
He should have performed a super-pullout and covered Lois with his super-spunk.

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