Captain America and Steroids: is this an issue?

[ShadowBoxing]

Captain America: First Avengers is coming out not too far on the horizon. As of yet there is not a word as to the script, the cast, or the storyline.

Captain America was, as most know, a Marvel hero created by Timely in the 1940s era ("The Golden Age"), and much like Batman he represented the peak physical man without having the additional powers of characters like Superman, The Spectre or Namor. Captain America was suppose to embody the American ideals of truth, justice and honesty. If I could compare him to anyone, he was almost like if John F. Kennedy or Franklin Delano Roosevelt had superpowers (which is ironic considering both were essentially walking cripples). He was the scrawny kid dreaming one day of being strong, and Dr. Rienstein (later Dr. Esrkine) gave him that chance.

...By injecting him with a drug (retro-virus), and watching him grow.

While Captain America's results are miraculous, as opposed to steroids which actually take work and effort, the stigma for steroids is that they are a medical shortcut for an otherwise hard and grueling task of staying physically in shape. Many people have used steroids in our culture, and their stories have been infamous. Ex-convict Greg Valentino, arrested for selling those drugs, one day witnessed his arms explode from the drugs he sold. Flex Wheeler, a famous Mr. Olympia, known for his stunning physique, had a stroke behind the wheel of his car, nearly killing his entire family. Now, while the media certainly sensationalizes these stories, and often doesn't distinguish between use and abuse, the mainstream public knows very little about these drugs.

So let's cut right to the chase, Steve Rogers is a boy like any other boy except so scrawny even the World War II draft board won't accept him. Whether by choice, or by chance, he is one day injected with a drug that gives him bulging biceps, a massive chest, the stamina of a thoroughbred, and the speed of a track star. We've already had one character debut this serum on screen, Emile Blonsky. Yet Emile was a villain, and neither the audience, nor the main character seemed to have much sympathy for him.

Captain America though, is different. This guy is suppose to be loved by both his country and his countrymen. So how can this story be told without the stigma of steroids getting in the way of that?

[Hmarrs]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

Captain America: First Avengers is coming out not too far on the horizon. As of yet there is not a word as to the script, the cast, or the storyline.

Captain America was, as most know, a Marvel hero created by Timely in the 1940s era ("The Golden Age"), and much like Batman he represented the peak physical man without having the additional powers of characters like Superman, The Spectre or Namor. Captain America was suppose to embody the American ideals of truth, justice and honesty. If I could compare him to anyone, he was almost like if John F. Kennedy or Franklin Delano Roosevelt had superpowers (which is ironic considering both were essentially walking cripples). He was the scrawny kid dreaming one day of being strong, and Dr. Rienstein (later Dr. Esrkine) gave him that chance.

...By injecting him with a drug (retro-virus), and watching him grow.

While Captain America's results are miraculous, as opposed to steroids which actually take work and effort, the stigma for steroids is that they are a medical shortcut for an otherwise hard and grueling task of staying physically in shape. Many people have used steroids in our culture, and their stories have been infamous. Ex-convict Greg Valentino, arrested for selling those drugs, one day witnessed his arms explode from the drugs he sold. Flex Wheeler, a famous Mr. Olympia, known for his stunning physique, had a stroke behind the wheel of his car, nearly killing his entire family. Now, while the media certainly sensationalizes these stories, and often doesn't distinguish between use and abuse, the mainstream public knows very little about these drugs.

So let's cut right to the chase, Steve Rogers is a boy like any other boy except so scrawny even the World War II draft board won't accept him. Whether by choice, or by chance, he is one day injected with a drug that gives him bulging biceps, a massive chest, the stamina of a thoroughbred, and the speed of a track star. We've already had one character debut this serum on screen, Emile Blonsky. Yet Emile was a villain, and neither the audience, nor the main character seemed to have much sympathy for him.

Captain America though, is different. This guy is suppose to be loved by both his country and his countrymen. So how can this story be told without the stigma of steroids getting in the way of that?

Wow.Dude you got way too much rime on your hands.Were you jusr sitting around and came up with this.
Just kidding.
But you got way too much time on your hands.

All jokes aside.I really don't think it will be too much of an issue as long as the idea of fiction is put in place but I see your concern.Also you know in today's age of what America stands for seems to be alot more relaxed(Unfortunately)than what is was 40,50 even 20 years ago.Clinton's ratings went up after America found out he was having an affair and he was the President.I'm not bashing him.I'm just saying what the polls revealed.The ideology of what truth and justice in America was is not what it is today.Elvis wasn't allowed on T.V. for swinging his hips in the 50's but Brittney can kiss Modonna on T.V. today.See what I mean?Maybe twenty years ago it would not have been allowed so he wouldn't apear as a junkie but unfortunately today knowone may care.Sad but true.I can only hope that America would care.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by Hmarrs

Wow.Dude you got way too much rime on your hands.Were you jusr sitting around and came up with this.

Well letsee. I've throught about it before. But I came up with the question in a thread about a month ago. As for having too much time on my hands. Not really. I just came back from the gym (spent an hour there), work a forty hour a week job, go to training twice a week, and usually read the rest of the time. I take thirty minutes a day, tops, to write on these boards.

Why is it so hard to believe I can actually write intelligently?

[Hmarrs]

How ironic I made that comment about Clinton and then when I posted it I read your signiture.
No offense dude.

[Hmarrs]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

Uhhh, yeah actually. I only put the time I it took to write it, which took me 4 minutes.

I was kidding.I meant the time to come up with it.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by Hmarrs

I was kidding.

It's cool.

I meant the time to come up with it.

That didn't take any time at all really.

[Timstuff]

It is a tricky situation, but maybe they actually can make something good of it, like showing some kind of consequences later on. I've never really read the Captain America books, so the only mythos of his that I really know are his origins. But still, I hope that the writers can come up with a sensible way to tell the story that won't be ignorant of the drug and steroid problem that our society has.

[Scooter]

Marvel ran a mini-series, Red, White, and Black, that dealt with U.S. experimentation on African American soldiers as failed precursors to the ultimate success of Steven Rogers (reminiscent of the infamous “Tuskegee experiments”). I envison that concept being touched upon at some point in the film series (ideally), with perhaps some darkly-lit flash backs of horribly mutated, grotesquely over-muscled victims dying in hospital beds. The Bad Side of steroids, itself exaggerated to devious, unethical, conspiratorial governmental proportions.

But as for negatively influencing the audience watching young Steve getting shot up with Barry Bonds Brand Home Run Juice, maybe that isn't such a bad thing. It reflects more on the people who did it to him than it does on him anyway. But you could always veilt he substance with science fiction. Maybe, instead of traditional anabolic steroids, he gets courses of "Myostatin inhibitors" - a technology and related condition that is quite real, but which presently has only occured naturally in certain brees of cows, dogs, and a few humans; or worked artificially in rats.

A comparison of mice, showing the effects of artificially suprresed myostatin proteins:





Myostatin-light whippets, or "Bully whippets" lack the fully fuctional genetic material that codes for myostatin:



"Belgain Blues", cows specially bred for their distinctive "double muscling":





The over-muscled legs of a German (I believe) baby born some years ago with a natural myostatin defiency:



There was also a boy with a simliar condition born in the American south a few years ago. Lucky bastards.

[odiin]

Is it an issue?

Short answer? No.

Long answer? No, absolutely not.

[MaskedManJRK]

From what I've read of Cap, the thing about his serum is that the inventor made something that no one else has been able to replicate since--so perhaps they could bypass this by saying that the components he used was something of his own design, completely different of the steroids used then.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by MaskedManJRK

From what I've read of Cap, the thing about his serum is that the inventor made something that no one else has been able to replicate since--so perhaps they could bypass this by saying that the components he used was something of his own design, completely different of the steroids used then.

Well, of course it worked, albeit with some *minor* side effects, in the Hulk movie. So you can't really say it's entirely unreplicated.

Originally Posted by Scooter

But as for negatively influencing the audience watching young Steve getting shot up with Barry Bonds Brand Home Run Juice, maybe that isn't such a bad thing. It reflects more on the people who did it to him than it does on him anyway. But you could always veilt he substance with science fiction. Maybe, instead of traditional anabolic steroids, he gets courses of "Myostatin inhibitors" - a technology and related condition that is quite real, but which presently has only occured naturally in certain brees of cows, dogs, and a few humans; or worked artificially in rats.

Barry Bonds is of course one such individual who makes this an uphill battle. A lot of sport's writers have noted if Bonds wasn't already such an a**hole, perhaps steroids in Baseball wouldn't be such an issue, since it really takes hand eye coordination and incredible skill to hit home runs no matter how many steroids you take.

To me, though, I see it is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. On the one hand, Cap could take a "thinly veiled" substance, yet still that seems to raise the question of steroids. On the other hand he could take nothing at all, raising the protests of fanboys. You could, as you said, have him be the victim, but even then, the idea of his character is he so badly wants to get into the army he's willing to put himself through this. While there may be bravery in that, especially since JFK himself took steroids to mask his severe weight gaining issues, back problems, and stomach issues when he enlisted, it's still going to be hard to have a character be a hero to children while in the same breath saying; want a great body, take this "substance".

Let's look at it from that perspective, at least. While thinking adults may well be able to distinguish fictional substance from real life illegal drug, teenagers and kids might well be turned on by the fact that Captain America is essentially using a shortcut, which is basically the same problem people have with Bonds.

I recall an ad running in comics now in light of The Dark Knight. It features Batman with a milk mustach and says "even Batman needs to refuel". Underneath it lists the benefits of taking milk daily as part of exercise and a balanced diet. Imagine Captain America now, who essentially can't make this claim. Batman is, and will always be a story of a man who worked hard to become the man he wanted to be. Captain America, while it is, jump started his entire career with one little injection. Different set of circumstances, and while I think Steve Rogers amazing brain, bravery and tenacity in the face of adversity speaks for itself there's so much of his life riding on this one moment.

I think the best suggestion, though, is something you alluded to. Namely, having him deal with the side effects. Maybe this stuff makes him angry, irrational, and even sick. Maybe we see Steve Rogers push through all that to become the star-spangled avenger we all know and respect. Making the serum more the demon he has to overcome rather than the godsend he was looking for.

There was also a boy with a simliar condition born in the American south a few years ago. Lucky bastards.

Sadly, that German boy, doctors think, will probably die of a massive heart attack at 20. Myostatin really is there to protect your heart and vital organs from being overloaded.

[CaptainCanada]

It's a totally nonsensical comparison; no need to address it at all. Him taking the SS serum is no different than wimpy Peter Parker getting his powers from a radioactive spider, or the Fantastic Four from cosmic rays; half of all characters depend on an outside source to go from zero to hero. Government programs to create an "ultimate soldier" are common in fiction, without any problems.

Moreover, he took the thing so he could risk his life fighting fascism, not cheat at sports.

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

We've already had one character debut this serum on screen, Emile Blonsky. Yet Emile was a villain, and neither the audience, nor the main character seemed to have much sympathy for him.

Captain America though, is different. This guy is suppose to be loved by both his country and his countrymen. So how can this story be told without the stigma of steroids getting in the way of that?

I believe most people can see the difference between someone injecting themselves with sterioids, so that they can have bigger arms in a muscle competition, and someone during WWII taking experiemental drugs provided by the government in an attempt to help the world beat the Nazis.

Blonsky was unsympathetic, not because he injected a steroid like substance....but the for his reasons behind doing it.

[Odin's Lapdog]

steroids are associated with cheating.

the super soldier serum is associated with patriotic sacrifice to get an edge in physical combat.

although there should be some kinda grief into how some other soldiers have to work hard to get to where they are, there should also be a balance that captain america gets to go into situations and takes plenty of damage on behalf of the other soldiers being able to perform their roles.

[marcvader]

I agree.. First off I've always thought of the serum as pure science fiction and secondly the motives and use of the serum are so far removed from todays steroid and HGH usage that I've never associated them to Captain America. This is another case of over analysis

[Odin's Lapdog]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I believe most people can see the difference between someone injecting themselves with sterioids, so that they can have bigger arms in a muscle competition, and someone during WWII taking experiemental drugs provided by the government in an attempt to help the world beat the Nazis.

Blonsky was unsympathetic, not because he injected a steroid like substance....but the for his reasons behind doing it.

I think the parallel could still be made with regards to modern day combatants who feel guilty they can't stand up to his prowess or maybe even the family members of soldiers who he gets bombarded with and manages to be the only one to survive.

I would much rather see him being accepted by modern day society quickely but resented by normal troops until he has to earn their respect on the battlefield. The drug step is a nice way to portray that

[Bubonic]

Shadow, I think the story can work without making Steve look like a cheater.
Have him be an ultra patriot in desperation to be able to contribute to the war effort, play up on the stigma of the time, how much pressure and propaganda there was around concerning enlistment.

Make him gullible, and have the army manipulate him torwards their own end. Play the effects up as a blessing, but when it plays a role in keeping him alive when he's frozen, and he wakes up and everyone he's loved is gone, then we can see it for the curse it is.

I might see the parallel between this and steroids, but people know this is science-fiction... They realize there isn't some instant solution like the super-soldier serum just as much as they know that all they'll get from a radioactive spider bite is cancer.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

Sadly, that German boy, doctors think, will probably die of a massive heart attack at 20. Myostatin really is there to protect your heart and vital organs from being overloaded.

Interesting. Last I heard, the American boy - though I'm having trouble finding information on him - was quite healthy, and no such dire projections were made for his future. Most of his doctors were just excited to see what puberty would be like. The "Bully whippets" generally have shorter lifespans, but not dramatically so, and are generally unhindered throughout (with the added benefits of being much faster and stronger than normal whippets of course, however much they may care).

But there are certainly degrees to these things, and the implications of artificial myostatin supression are rehabilitative as well. More so than just enhanced athletes, treatments for the various muscular dystrophy diseases may be based on that protein's manipulation.

[Peyton Westlake]

I don't think America will think too much about how Cap got 'juiced'. Its a fantasy story , and i'm sure they will use the word 'serum' at every turn to hammer that point home. I think the problem, Cap might face, is Batman. Batman IS a normal guy. He wasn't injected with a serum to 'beef up'. He just trained hard until he was good enough to mix it up. TDK showed all the bruises he takes in a fight, which makes him more human, we can identify w/that. Will Cap take the same punishment being all 'charged' up? We'll have to wait & see.

[ShadowBoxing]

Originally Posted by CaptainCanada

It's a totally nonsensical comparison; no need to address it at all. Him taking the SS serum is no different than wimpy Peter Parker getting his powers from a radioactive spider, or the Fantastic Four from cosmic rays; half of all characters depend on an outside source to go from zero to hero. Government programs to create an "ultimate soldier" are common in fiction, without any problems.

The difference between the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and even X-Men is that in many cases their powers are seen as curses, their development of them is pure happenstance, and the effects create them into something far more than human. Steve Rogers as Captain America is still human, peak human, but still human. His powers are rarely, if ever, viewed as a curse and the reason he got them rested entirely on his shoulders. True, it's a Government experiment, but so, in a way was steroids. Unlike today, when you need a dealer, back in the fifties and even forties doctors were giving steroids to Bodybuilders. Several of them describe the experience like being test subjects in someone else's experiment.

Arnold Schwarzenegger explains that he and Franco Columbo used to talk about them all the time, not knowing what they were. "How many [dianabol] did you take today", and Franco would reply "three before breakfast, three before I worked out" (even a high dosage by today's standards). So even though it's not the same, it is. Steroids, much like Erskine's formula, is a mythic substance. It's shrouded in myth. Talk to a user, or talk to an outsider and you get extremely different perspectives.

Also, as for the "cheating" stigma. I don't think that changes anything by the fact that's he's in war. The media doesn't rag on steroids exclusively because they are "cheats". In fact in most cases they aren't. Bodybuilders , all of them, whether they admit it or not, have experimented (almost all, at least). It's suspected 20% of all gym goers have tried them at one point. It's also well known that Baseball players used to have trash bins in their own showers where people could throw away their used needles. When everyone is doing them, it's hardly cheating anymore.

In this case though, only one guy does them and lives. That in and of itself creates a stigma. The drug kills. The drug is unpredictable and the drug is an injection. I can see where this movie, already, is walking a very thin line.

Remember, even though this has been exposed, it's only been really exposed to a small percentage of the population: comic book readers. Comic book readers are plenty used to controversy in comics by now, and are willingly to put up with soap opera storylines where characters develop bad habits, sexual deviances, or break the law, routinely. My concern is more or less the general public's reaction.

[Peyton Westlake]

1 thing I forgot to add from my previous post is, I'm more worried that Marvel may want to distance themselves from the steroid comparison & change Cap's origin. I'm afraid they may 'Hulk' out Cap. And what I mean by that is subjecting him exposure to a machine of radiation ala Banner.

[CaptainCanada]

Originally Posted by ShadowBoxing

In this case though, only one guy does them and lives. That in and of itself creates a stigma. The drug kills. The drug is unpredictable and the drug is an injection.

Only if they do the "Truth" backstory, and I seriously, seriously doubt they'll use that. Cap's backstory is that he volunteered to be the first test subject to go fight the Nazis.

There's no controversy here, just over-analysis.

As I said, trying to enhance humans for combat situations is a tried-and-true plot device in science fiction, one that people are quite used to.

[Docker2.0]

I'm surprised noone really replied about those hulk dogs and those muscle bound rats! What's wrong with you people?! That rat looks like that evil rat on Willard!

[Gilpesh]

Steroids are taken by idiots to make themselves look better and get more money from the sports league they are in...

That serum was taken by a naive patriot who wanted nothing more to defend his country...


Yes, this is totally an issue.

[bullets]

It's been said that Bale took steroids to play batman (more than likely) but these actors don't have to be ginormous .