Discussion: Abortion

[Marx]

Pro-Life. Pro-Choice. Discuss.

[SuBe]

I will not discuss this, because there is no way anyone can discuss it civilaly. But, thanks for opening a thread for it. Let's hope the following posts are not so, let's say, Gladatorial.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

I will not discuss this, because there is no way anyone can discuss it civilaly. But, thanks for opening a thread for it. Let's hope the following posts are not so, let's say, Gladatorial.

I just thought that since there are some posters discussing this in other threads, that maybe one should be created for it. (So it doesn't hijack said threads.)

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Marx

I just thought that since there are some posters discussing this in other threads, that maybe one should be created for it. (So it doesn't hijack said threads.)

Oh, I suggested this earlier today.

Jman and I were talking about changing "Thread Hijack" to "Thread Rape". It's more appropriate somtimes.

This is such a delicate subject. Who can say when life begins. Who can say when personal liberty trumps life? Who can say personal responsiblity when you have a possible child in the waiting? How can a Man force Government to make a woman do something she doesn't want to do? But, how can that same woman terminate a life? Does life start at conception? Or when the Fetus stops sucking life internally (which some parents would say is 18 years old)?

I can't discuss the finer points of this, but good luck for anyone that will try.

[Gilpesh]

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

"Thread Rape".

So you would be pro-abortion in the case of thread rape?

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

Who can say when life begins.

It's a hard line to define... but I think there was evidence (scientific) that says it's not conception.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Gilpesh

So you would be pro-abortion in the case of thread rape?

I support a fair and comprihensive Dust'n and a Clean'n in the event of a Thread Rape.

It's a hard line to define... but I think there was evidence (scientific) that says it's not conception.

One could argue that life begins at the first heartbeat. Or the First time a Zigote turns into what ever a zigote turns into. You know, Cell Division and such.

[bunk]

I think life begins fairly shortly after the egg is fertilized I guess. An embryo is an example of life. When is it aware of itself though? Is sentient life the distinction? Maybe we'll be able to more accurately pinpoint when that self awareness begins after more study of the developing brain. For many, I don't think that's at all relevant. I myself, do not have a fully formed opinion about this.

[Gilpesh]

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

I support a fair and comprihensive Dust'n and a Clean'n in the event of a Thread Rape.

I'm more in favor of the stomach kick/stairs topple method.

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

One could argue that life begins at the first heartbeat. Or the First time a Zigote turns into what ever a zigote turns into. You know, Cell Division and such.

Yeah... we're not biologists... let's just keep to the maybe inappropriate joking of a thread being a woman and having abortions.

[The Senator]

Pro-choice. And that's as far as I'm going with this.

[redfirebird2008]

I'm anti-abortion, and I can't stand the phrase "pro-life" because it's too generic.

[danoyse]

I'm pro-choice. I don't like abortion, I wouldn't choose it for myself, but I don't have the right to tell anyone else what to do.

And I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade would make things any better. It won't make abortion go away. The process itself would still exist, and women desperate enough to have one will end up finding some dangerous illegal method of getting one. I'd prefer it be left as a safe option done by medical professionals, and not with a coat hanger in a back alley somewhere.

[The Senator]

Three years ago, a female friend of mine came up to me and told me she was pregnant. And because I'm such a charming, smart, intellectual person, she asked what she should do about her pregnancy.

I told her it was her choice.

She continued to ask me. She continued to ask what I thought she should do.

So I told her that I did not know what she was going through, and therefore I am unqualified to make the decision for her. But if I had to make a recommendation, if I were in that scenario, I would keep the baby and put it through adoption. Why? Because I felt that it was the right path. The best path for an unborn child.

But she didn't. Because she couldn't let a pregnancy get in the way of her academic career, a pregnancy which she never intended to have, because she used protection and was "as careful as could be." She is still with the boyfriend, I don't think he knows about the pregnancy and the subsequent abortion-- and why should he? It wasn't intended, she never wanted to get pregnant, they couldn't raise a child if they wanted to and they didn't want to go through the emotional turmoil that pregnancy caused. I can't blame her. At all.

And that, as far as I'm concerned, shows why men cannot have a solid opinion on the matter. Because we can never know what these women feel. We can never know what it is like to get pregnant at such a young age, to have an 'accidental' child.

Many of you may be surprised to learn that, long ago, I was "pro-life." Anti-abortion, anti-choice, etc. I was actually more conservative three years ago than I am today.That incident was the pinnacle of my political realignment. Because I realized I would never, ever be able to make the best decision in such a situation, because I am not a woman and therefore I just don't know how to deal with such an earth-shattering decision.

Many of you know from other threads that I have tried to seek the best rationale behind why a fetus is not a fully developed human being. The best explanation I ever came up with was that a fetus has a parasitic relationship with the mother, and because the fetus is a part of the mother's body, that means she has total control over its fate until it is able to survive on its own. Is my opinion the best? No. Is it controversial? Of course. But that's how I understand it. That's how I justify abortion, on a moral standing.

I said I wouldn't get into it, and I don't plan on doing so any further... but I feel like I needed to say that... I know StorminNorman has a similar, if not more direct, story of his own...

[Addendum]

If a woman decides to have an abortion or not is none of my business.

[luke1234]

its up to the women; pro choice, again wont go any further then that.

[Trainwreck2100]

I've always been against it, unless a)the act of giving birth poses a threat to the mother's life or b)it's a product of rape. You can't do the time don't do the crime.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Trainwreck2100

You can't do the time don't do the crime.

It's about so much more than that. You could have been perfectly safe, there's always a chance, however small, that something will go wrong. Should you be punished for that? Risks come with everything in life, but that doesn't mean we have to avoid them, that would be impossible. And you can't blame people for taking those risks.

I've always been pro-choice, by the way, for pretty much the same arguments people have already made in this thread.

By the way, hi, I'm new here!

[Hobodeluxe]

here's my story and why I believe what I believe.

For myself and my wife we could never condone abortion. I'm 48 yrs old and my wife got pregnant when she was 19 soon after we married in 1980. We were in no shape financially but neither of us could think the unthinkable. The thought of it sickens me. But that's us.
As far as I'm concerned if a girl gets in trouble and it's early on I really don't have a huge problem with it because I believe in personal responsibility and if it's a sin then they will answer for it come judgment. My bible tells me not to judge.
The reason I take this position is very personal.
In 1976 I knew this family,the oldest son was my best friend and we hung out working on cars (both of us had 65 mustangs) that were ultra conservative and right wing.
Six kids,3 boys 3 girls. The girls were not allowed to wear pants. Every night it was family prayer hour and bible study when church wasn't going on.
Well as teenagers are want to do and as their hormones rage outta control they sometimes mess up.
She got into trouble. And she confided in me and a couple of her friends at school. She faced a terrible dilemma because she did not want to shame her family.
Long story short she died accidentally trying to make herself miscarry.

Now I know this was her choice. It'[s sad that she felt she couldn't trust her mother.
But people need to realize this is the kind of stuff that happens. Kids will not stop having sex. It's probably one of the most natural and primal urges we have. It's an inherent physiological trait that ensures survival of the species. And to demonize it and shame kids for having those urges and condemning them instead of reaching out to them and reassuring them is wrong and it's a sin and goes against everything I as a parent believe is right.

all actions have consequences. more unwanted or unneeded babies becoming a burden on the system is one of them. the govt should approach this pragmatically and not emotionally.
If we as a people decide that the girl down the street must be forced to deliver a kid then we share a responsibility to see to it that kid is given what it need to become a productive citizen.
Personally I'd rather it stay a state's right.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by Luca

It's about so much more than that. You could have been perfectly safe, there's always a chance, however small, that something will go wrong. Should you be punished for that? Risks come with everything in life, but that doesn't mean we have to avoid them, that would be impossible. And you can't blame people for taking those risks.

I've always been pro-choice, by the way, for pretty much the same arguments people have already made in this thread.

By the way, hi, I'm new here!

I have a question about this, maybe anyone can answer. Like I said up there in my First Post, I don't talk about this. But, Is a child punishment? Is human life so utterly disgusting, that you would call human life a punishment?

Prison time, is punishment. 10 Slashes is punishment, detention is punishment, and suspension without pay is punishment. How is a child punishment?

I leave this thread now, but I would like to hear an answer on that.

[Killgore]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Three years ago, a female friend of mine came up to me and told me she was pregnant. And because I'm such a charming, smart, intellectual person, she asked what she should do about her pregnancy.

I told her it was her choice.

She continued to ask me. She continued to ask what I thought she should do.

So I told her that I did not know what she was going through, and therefore I am unqualified to make the decision for her. But if I had to make a recommendation, if I were in that scenario, I would keep the baby and put it through adoption. Why? Because I felt that it was the right path. The best path for an unborn child.

But she didn't. Because she couldn't let a pregnancy get in the way of her academic career, a pregnancy which she never intended to have, because she used protection and was "as careful as could be." She is still with the boyfriend, I don't think he knows about the pregnancy and the subsequent abortion-- and why should he? It wasn't intended, she never wanted to get pregnant, they couldn't raise a child if they wanted to and they didn't want to go through the emotional turmoil that pregnancy caused. I can't blame her. At all.

And that, as far as I'm concerned, shows why men cannot have a solid opinion on the matter. Because we can never know what these women feel. We can never know what it is like to get pregnant at such a young age, to have an 'accidental' child.

Many of you may be surprised to learn that, long ago, I was "pro-life." Anti-abortion, anti-choice, etc. I was actually more conservative three years ago than I am today.That incident was the pinnacle of my political realignment. Because I realized I would never, ever be able to make the best decision in such a situation, because I am not a woman and therefore I just don't know how to deal with such an earth-shattering decision.

Many of you know from other threads that I have tried to seek the best rationale behind why a fetus is not a fully developed human being. The best explanation I ever came up with was that a fetus has a parasitic relationship with the mother, and because the fetus is a part of the mother's body, that means she has total control over its fate until it is able to survive on its own. Is my opinion the best? No. Is it controversial? Of course. But that's how I understand it. That's how I justify abortion, on a moral standing.

I said I wouldn't get into it, and I don't plan on doing so any further... but I feel like I needed to say that... I know StorminNorman has a similar, if not more direct, story of his own...

Well stated. I used to be prolife until I had a similar realignment of my thinking. I don't have a womb, so I should keep my damn mouth shut.

[The Chairman]

I'm pro-choice. I feel that abortion is the prime example of a necessary evil. No one likes abortion, it's a daunting, harrowing decision that stays with you forever, but in some cases, it's often the right choice. Plus, children born when not intended often grow up in households where they are viewed as parasites and have a higher chance of emotional problems and have greater potential to turn to crime later in life. As someone who intends to become a Children's Rights activist, I can't bare seeing something like that happen just because the parents made a mistake.

[SuperT]

I believe that it's absolutely, 100% a womans right to choose what she does with an embryo growing in her body, whether that is keeping it or aborting it.

Until us men start getting pregnant (lol) we have no right to tell a woman what to do with it.

[Marx]

Originally Posted by Luca

It's about so much more than that. You could have been perfectly safe, there's always a chance, however small, that something will go wrong. Should you be punished for that? Risks come with everything in life, but that doesn't mean we have to avoid them, that would be impossible. And you can't blame people for taking those risks.

I've always been pro-choice, by the way, for pretty much the same arguments people have already made in this thread.

By the way, hi, I'm new here!

Welcome to the boards Luca!

[SentinelMind]

Personally I'd rather it stay a state's right.

Well, its not currently a state's right. Then you would prefer that Roe v Wade was overturned, and allow state legislatures to regulate abortions.

Originally Posted by Hobodeluxe

here's my story and why I believe what I believe.

For myself and my wife we could never condone abortion. I'm 48 yrs old and my wife got pregnant when she was 19 soon after we married in 1980. We were in no shape financially but neither of us could think the unthinkable. The thought of it sickens me. But that's us.
As far as I'm concerned if a girl gets in trouble and it's early on I really don't have a huge problem with it because I believe in personal responsibility and if it's a sin then they will answer for it come judgment. My bible tells me not to judge.
The reason I take this position is very personal.
In 1976 I knew this family,the oldest son was my best friend and we hung out working on cars (both of us had 65 mustangs) that were ultra conservative and right wing.
Six kids,3 boys 3 girls. The girls were not allowed to wear pants. Every night it was family prayer hour and bible study when church wasn't going on.
Well as teenagers are want to do and as their hormones rage outta control they sometimes mess up.
She got into trouble. And she confided in me and a couple of her friends at school. She faced a terrible dilemma because she did not want to shame her family.
Long story short she died accidentally trying to make herself miscarry.

What you've described is a really tragic incident. It is sad that children doesn't trust their parent and makes a tradic decision like this. However, I do not believe minors should be allowed to have government-funded abortion or to do undergo any serious medical procedure without informing their parents. I think what you're implicity implying is that girl should have had a right to an government-funded abortion where the parents would be uninformed. I agree that getting pregnant can be perceived shameful and sad, but that isn't enough justification to not allow the parents to be aware that their child is underoing this medical procedure. The problem here was that the child didn't trust parents, and it seems to be the lack of trust was based on the parent's strict religious faith or discipline. If there was trust between the child and the parent, I'd assume she'd have been alive today. The argument that the government should circumvent the authority of religious people to raise their child because the government knows better than the parent is a dangerous position that I do not support.

But people need to realize this is the kind of stuff that happens. Kids will not stop having sex. It's probably one of the most natural and primal urges we have. It's an inherent physiological trait that ensures survival of the species. And to demonize it and shame kids for having those urges and condemning them instead of reaching out to them and reassuring them is wrong and it's a sin and goes against everything I as a parent believe is right.

Ok, but shouldn't the parent be aware if their child is undergoing an abortion?

all actions have consequences. more unwanted or unneeded babies becoming a burden on the system is one of them. the govt should approach this pragmatically and not emotionally.

Ok, the position that children should have the right to get an abortion without parental notification, because they don't want to be 'shamed' is a purely emotional position that undermine parent's right.

If we as a people decide that the girl down the street must be forced to deliver a kid then we share a responsibility to see to it that kid is given what it need to become a productive citizen.

Fair enough.

[The Chairman]

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond

I have a question about this, maybe anyone can answer. Like I said up there in my First Post, I don't talk about this. But, Is a child punishment? Is human life so utterly disgusting, that you would call human life a punishment?

Prison time, is punishment. 10 Slashes is punishment, detention is punishment, and suspension without pay is punishment. How is a child punishment?

I leave this thread now, but I would like to hear an answer on that.

Let's look at it form the alternate perspective:

Why should a child be born into a home where it's going to be thought of as a mistake and an incovenience instead of a product of true love and commitment, which is what childbirth is supposed to be?

It's not as black and white as you seem to want to make it. A woman doesn't just say "**** it, I'm killing this baby." It's a severe, emotionally crippling decision. You portray it as way too simple.

[The Chairman]

I agree that a parent should know if their child has had an abortion.