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Old 09-10-2008, 07:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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That is what they are doing only counting one & ignoring the other one which shows different results. But hey they can do what they want
Well I never hear anybody talking about the adjusted for inflation list anywhere really? The studios don't use it, the critics, writers, it is kind of the secondary list with all movies, why would it be different for Dark Knight?

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Old 09-10-2008, 07:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Well I never hear anybody talking about the adjusted for inflation list anywhere really? The studios don't use it, the critics, writers, it is kind of the secondary list with all movies, why would it be different for Dark Knight?
It shouldn't be different for any movie but it is what it is

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Old 09-10-2008, 07:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

Inflation is only really applicable to films within close years of one another. The varying factors that contribute to box office gross aren't so high there. Case in example, Spider-Man 1 and TDK.

Films that are decades apart however, simply cannot be compared using an inflation model. Some like to think that ticket price is the only difference displayed, but it's much more than that. Cheaper tickets means more willing buyers, which accounts for higher ticket sales and a higher chance of repeat viewings. Inflating that gross doesn't take these incentives into account. Neither does it account for piracy, home theater, and dvd growth.

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Old 09-10-2008, 09:24 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

i found that line from gordon at the end of the movie to be one of many ham fisted corny speeches in TDK. i dont need that in a superman film....or any film.

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Old 09-10-2008, 10:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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i found that line from gordon at the end of the movie to be one of many ham fisted corny speeches in TDK. i dont need that in a superman film....or any film.
What were the other "many ham fisted corny speeches" in TDK?

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Old 09-10-2008, 10:21 PM   #31
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

Behold the impossible
A man so powerful that he dares to replace the Gods of legend
Simple word cannot describe him
Because the Gods would admire the courage and nobility in such a man’ soul
The courage to go beyond the absolute limit of resistance
To go at death's door and come back
The nobility to act for the greatest cause
For the love of his fellow brothers and sisters
He keeps going no matter what
Because he’s the last of his kind
He bears the weight of the whole world upon his shoulder
He’s a lone angel warrior
He’s risking death because he is a hero
And he succeed because he is Superman


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Old 09-11-2008, 07:00 AM   #32
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Can't agree with that - to me TDK has some of the best imagery I've seen in a blockbuster and the whole look of the film really played up to the paranoid, climactic mood, as well as the characters of Batman and the Joker. It was an extremely satisfying film on a visual level, and that's probably the aspect i love most about it.

The way I see it, TDK was entitled to its corny scene at the end because the whole film had been the opposite of that for the the entire 2 and a half hours.

Yes, it was Gordon explaining to us the situation, but it worked because in the context of a superhero blockbuster what Batman was doing was relatively profound. And hey, I still see a hell of a lot of people arguing about the implications so it clearly wasn't that obvious anyway.

And yes, Guard, you actually have to suggest what you'd have done instead to have a degree of credibility when criticizing. IMO.
I think you misunderstood me slightly. I wasn't talking about cinematography or "imagery," as you mentioned. I agree that there are many beautiful single images in The Dark Knight--the film was well photographed. What I was trying to talk about is the visual storytelling language, meaning the overall method that the director chooses to deliver the story to the audience and, more specifically, the actual scene coverage, the combination of shots for each scene and how those shots are ordered and paced, strategically revealing the necessary information to the audience at each passing moment.

Nolan's visual language is non-existent because his method is dialogue, which, generally speaking, is not as engulfing of an experience as visual storytelling. There are many examples of this fact besides Gordon's epilogue.

1. The most glaring one is that Nolan communicates that Harvey and Rachel have been abducted by having The Joker tell us that they've been abducted. Nolan never shows them being abducted, but rather communicates this key story point solely through the dialogue--the audience must trust that what The Joker says has in fact happened and then emotionally respond accordingly, far less "emotional" than actually seeing Harvey and Rachel being unexpectedly abducted.

2. In the hospital, The Joker explains his motives to Harvey Dent rather than allowing those motives to reveal themselves naturally through narrative.

3. The Joker's final speech about how Harvey is his "ace in the hole," explains to the audience the dynamic of The Joker's manipulation, rather than allowing that dynamic to reveal itself through narrative.

4. Gordon's epilogue explains to the audience the "truth" of the film's final events, rather than allowing the narrative to speak for itself and allowing the audience to react subjectively.

These examples are all large, key plot points. Smaller examples would be that Harvey Dent and Rachel never have an actual scene where we see that they're in love (for lack of a better example, no Armageddon "animal crackers" scene), they just say to each other "I love you," which, to Nolan, adequately makes the audience feel that the relationship is authentic. That's why I say that the film is like a play. In a play, characters walk around saying "I love you" and that means they're in love--that's how plays work, utilizing combinations of words to tell stories. Movies are visual, utilizing combinations of images to tell stories. Visual storytelling is the nature of cinema and it's what makes movies unique and powerful. At its best, visual storytelling is emotionally intoxicating and intellectually permeating. That's why when a filmmaker like Christopher Nolan ignores the visual nature of the art and employs verbal methods, such filmmaking becomes didactic, forced, lazy, and emotionally alienating. It's the equivalent of having a character turn to the camera and say "See, kids, that's why you shouldn't take drugs... (wink)" as opposed to a movie like Requiem For A Dream, which shows why you shouldn't take drugs and makes you feel it through the natural unfolding of its narrative and the succession of carefully chosen images scene-by-scene. Such visual storytelling is utilized by the great directors of conventional cinema (although I wouldn't put Aronofsky on that list, but he is a visual storyteller) and I hope that the future director of Superman employs such effective methods. I've always thought that a Superman film directed with such effective visual storytelling has the potential to be the highest grossing film of all time because the story appeals to such a vast array of genres and therefore market demographics.


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Old 09-11-2008, 09:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I think there can be for the end of the movie with Superman hovering outside of Lex's window talking to him about why the people can trust him or what he sees in mankind. Something along those lines and it could fit.
Like this?





EDIT: Crook already did it, but with a different panel.

Good stuff, regardless.

And Lucid, interesting comments regarding The Happening in your link.

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Old 09-11-2008, 09:56 AM   #34
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Not really.
are you trying to say the portrayal of superman in the last five films have not been as selfless as batman's so-called sacrifice for gotham?

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Old 09-11-2008, 11:31 AM   #35
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I think you misunderstood me slightly. I wasn't talking about cinematography or "imagery," as you mentioned. I agree that there are many beautiful single images in The Dark Knight--the film was well photographed. What I was trying to talk about is the visual storytelling language, meaning the overall method that the director chooses to deliver the story to the audience and, more specifically, the actual scene coverage, the combination of shots for each scene and how those shots are ordered and paced, strategically revealing the necessary information to the audience at each passing moment.

Nolan's visual language is non-existent because his method is dialogue, which, generally speaking, is not as engulfing of an experience as visual storytelling. There are many examples of this fact besides Gordon's epilogue.

1. The most glaring one is that Nolan communicates that Harvey and Rachel have been abducted by having The Joker tell us that they've been abducted. Nolan never shows them being abducted, but rather communicates this key story point solely through the dialogue--the audience must trust that what The Joker says has in fact happened and then emotionally respond accordingly, far less "emotional" than actually seeing Harvey and Rachel being unexpectedly abducted.

2. The Joker's final speech about how Harvey is his "ace in the hole," explains to the audience the dynamic of The Joker's manipulation, rather than allowing that dynamic to reveal itself naturally through narrative.

3. Nolan elects to verbalize Bruce's moral dilemma through Alfred's story about the bandit in Burma, rather than allowing the narrative to display such a dilemma on its own.

4. Gordon's epilogue explains to the audience the "truth" of the film's final events, rather than allowing the narrative to speak for itself and allowing the audience to react subjectively.

These examples are all large, key plot points. Smaller examples would be that Harvey Dent and Rachel never have an actual scene where we see that they're in love (for lack of a better example, no Armageddon "animal crackers" scene), they just say to each other "I love you," which, to Nolan, adequately makes the audience feel that the relationship is authentic. That's why I say that the film is like a play. In a play, characters walk around saying "I love you" and that means they're in love--that's how plays work, utilizing combinations of words to tell stories. Movies are visual, utilizing combinations of images to tell stories. Such visual storytelling is the nature of cinema and it's what makes movies unique and powerful. At its best, visual storytelling is emotionally intoxicating and intellectually permeating. That's why when a filmmaker like Christopher Nolan ignores the visual nature of the art and employs verbal methods, such filmmaking becomes didactic, forced, lazy, and emotionally alienating. It's the equivalent of having a character turn to the camera and say "See, kids, that's why you shouldn't take drugs... (wink)" as opposed to a movie like Requiem For A Dream, which shows why you shouldn't take drugs and makes you feel it through the natural unfolding of its narrative and the succession of carefully chosen images scene-by-scene. Such visual storytelling is utilized by the great directors of conventional cinema (although I wouldn't put Aronofsky on that list, but he is a visual storyteller) and I hope that the director of Superman employs such effective methods. I've always thought that a Superman film directed with such effective visual storytelling has the potential to be the highest grossing film of all time because the story appeals to such a vast array of genres and therefore market demographics. Just like John McCain, I don't think Warner Bros. "gets it," lol.

I could see how this whole "visual language" stuff could be confusing if you're not accustomed to thinking about cinema in these terms. If you want further explanation, you can check out my post on Jim Emerson's blog regarding M. Night Shyamalan. My post begins: "Ah, I didn't know that you actually read these posts." Here's the link: http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2...e_happeni.html
I don't think your first example is really fair as Dent's kidnapping is meant to be as much a surprise to us as it is to Batman. We're meant to be vaguely optimistic that the Joker's been caught to suddenly horrified at the reality of the situation, which becomes apparent to us when it cuts to Dent tied up.

I'd also say that though the ending maybe didn't need words from Gordon AFTER Batman ran away, it still worked anyhow - though I'd put that down to the music as much as anything. As I said, I felt the that after 2.5 hours the film was entitled to its 'corny scene' and it was corny, but luckily it was IMO a powerful and profound one. Again, Alfred's Burma story wasn't exactly subtle as a device, but told against shots of the Joker it becomes effective, and is hugely economical. In 2 minutes the audience understood the heart of the Joker, and it was no less terrifying for its brevity.


And economy is what it's really all about. I'd never deny TDK is a dialogue film. But when intertwined with inspired imagery it works very well. When you have a story as large as TDK then applying efficient, economical dialogue in itself becomes an art form, and it seems you at least agree that the film did that well. As a student of the medium I'm sure you also realize that, whatever critics say, TDK is still playing within the confines of its genre so it can only ever go so far with purely visual storytelling. If it wants to make money, at least. I certainly can't think of a successful superhero movie that's done that much more than TDK has


I'd be genuinely interested if you could say how those points would be done better.

That's not a loaded question, I'd really like to know...

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Old 09-11-2008, 03:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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And yes, Guard, you actually have to suggest what you'd have done instead to have a degree of credibility when criticizing. IMO.
No. You don't have to come up with something better to prove why you not liking something is invalid.

What I'd have done, simply put, is pander less. A lot less.

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Old 09-11-2008, 03:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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No. You don't have to come up with something better to prove why you not liking something is invalid.

What I'd have done, simply put, is pander less. A lot less.
I suppose you don't, but when a large percentage of your posts are nothing more than something along the lines of"TDK isn't very good. Period" with no follow up you can't blame others for finding it tiresome. At least Lucid actually promoted a discussion even if I didn't fully agree with him.

But yes. It's your call.

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Old 09-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

As far as I know, that isn't the best, most emotional scene in history, so yeah.

Title: Can a chocolate cake ever taste better than swallowing a TDK DVD?

Body: Bla,bla,bla....

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Old 09-11-2008, 04:19 PM   #39
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

I didn't find the speech to be emotional at all so no. I didn't hate it but I didn't love it either so no. The answer to me is no because I don't agree that it was great, the movie was though.

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Old 09-11-2008, 04:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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As far as I know, that isn't the best, most emotional scene in history, so yeah.

Title: Can a chocolate cake ever taste better than swallowing a TDK DVD?

Body: Bla,bla,bla....
Who is serving the chocolate cake? Chocolate cake girl from the Spider-Man movies?

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Old 09-11-2008, 05:02 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

I find this thread to be strange. If you the thread starter picked out a particularly emotional scene this thread would be better, not that silly monologue at the end. Like the actual ending. I really felt for Dent because you could understand his pain and Eckhart was so damn good. As a matter of fact him and Oldman have been underpraised because of the fine showy work Ledger did.

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Old 09-11-2008, 05:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I suppose you don't, but when a large percentage of your posts are nothing more than something along the lines of"TDK isn't very good. Period" with no follow up you can't blame others for finding it tiresome. At least Lucid actually promoted a discussion even if I didn't fully agree with him.
I gave TDK a 9/10, and pointed out what I felt were its flaws and strengths rather directly, and have continued to do so. None of my posts have even hinted that I don't like the film or think it's any good. I have no idea where you've pulled this bizarre and interesting idea from. But you have completely misinterpreted my stance on THE DARK KNIGHT. Completely.

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Old 09-11-2008, 05:47 PM   #43
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I've done it! I've written a Superman scene that compares in terms of emotion!

JIMMY
Why doesn't he reveal his true identity, Chief?

PERRY WHITE
Because he's not looking to be recognized. He's the hero Metropolis deserves...even if we don't fully understand him yet. And though we may fear him, he'll still help us. Because he's more than just an alien..he's a caped angel...a Man of Steel and a Man of Tomorrow...(Perry tears up)...he's a...a...

LOIS
A Superman.


Did you see that? I had THREE characters in on stating the obvious.

I still can't believe people like that sequence so much. It's just Gordon stating the obvious in the most pandering and overwrought manner imaginable.

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Old 09-11-2008, 06:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I gave TDK a 9/10, and pointed out what I felt were its flaws and strengths rather directly, and have continued to do so. None of my posts have even hinted that I don't like the film or think it's any good. I have no idea where you've pulled this bizarre and interesting idea from. But you have completely misinterpreted my stance on THE DARK KNIGHT. Completely.
I'd hate to see you comment on a film you actually didn't like, LOL. It just seems with your posts you're always taking shots at BB or TDK in some manner and then you actually think those movies are good?

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Old 09-11-2008, 10:20 PM   #45
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

It's possible for someone to like something, but to recognize said thing's flaws at the same time...Nothing unnatural about that. You don't have to plain LOVE something or plain HATE something, which seem to be the 2 settings that were programmed into fanboys when they were born.

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Old 09-11-2008, 10:43 PM   #46
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:18 AM   #47
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I don't think your first example is really fair as Dent's kidnapping is meant to be as much a surprise to us as it is to Batman. We're meant to be vaguely optimistic that the Joker's been caught to suddenly horrified at the reality of the situation, which becomes apparent to us when it cuts to Dent tied up.

I'd also say that though the ending maybe didn't need words from Gordon AFTER Batman ran away, it still worked anyhow - though I'd put that down to the music as much as anything. As I said, I felt the that after 2.5 hours the film was entitled to its 'corny scene' and it was corny, but luckily it was IMO a powerful and profound one. Again, Alfred's Burma story wasn't exactly subtle as a device, but told against shots of the Joker it becomes effective, and is hugely economical. In 2 minutes the audience understood the heart of the Joker, and it was no less terrifying for its brevity.


And economy is what it's really all about. I'd never deny TDK is a dialogue film. But when intertwined with inspired imagery it works very well. When you have a story as large as TDK then applying efficient, economical dialogue in itself becomes an art form, and it seems you at least agree that the film did that well. As a student of the medium I'm sure you also realize that, whatever critics say, TDK is still playing within the confines of its genre so it can only ever go so far with purely visual storytelling. If it wants to make money, at least. I certainly can't think of a successful superhero movie that's done that much more than TDK has


I'd be genuinely interested if you could say how those points would be done better.

That's not a loaded question, I'd really like to know...
You keep saying that Gordon's epilogue was cheesy, but you liked it anyway. I don't know about other people on these boards, but I didn't think it was cheesy, I thought it was great. It was one of the best moments of the film, especially when viewing the film more as a work of theater than cinema. So you don't have to keep defending the epilogue. I liked it!

I think we kind of agree here, but are just coming at this topic from different angles. You used the word "economy." I agree that's the right perspective in which to view TDK, but I would use a harsher word: lazy. "Economy" of storytelling in cinema--at least in the way that you're describing--is really a way of saying shortcuts. Shortcuts are lazy and uncreative because they are easy to think of--it's a lot easier to just write a monologue instead of constructing a thoughtful progression of events that communicates the same point--and, worse yet, the audience doesn't feel shortcuts--they destroy emotion and audience investment.

My point is that I hope that a Superman film will work on a deeper emotional level because the material has such potential that I would hate to see it squandered, which is what Bryan Singer did the last time around. I hope WB uses this reboot as an opportunity to make a classic and classics are created using visual storytelling, not dialogue. And it's not a matter of genre constrictions. I mentioned E.T. and Star Wars in a previous post, two films that strictly conform to genre guidelines, yet they are told visually and reach out to audiences. Dialogue isn't synonymous with convention--all films use dialogue and images together--it's a matter of the balance between the two and where the information and feeling originates from that dictates the audiences enjoyment of the film.

To answer your question, the way to improve TDK would be to simply remove those moments of dialogue and let the natural unfolding of the story speak for itself because all of the revelations in the dialogue are thoughts that the audience would have on their own at various points in the film, but would be conjured up by events rather than simply being told so, which leads to more enjoyment because audience members are contributing something of themselves to the movie and, at that point, you've got them! because they're now participating in an interactive experience, sending them deeper inside the film at each passing moment, making them more invested in the characters and the outcome and they enjoy the movie more. Simple logic. A Superman story, in my opinion, can possibly do this better than any other story because the characters are so universal, so identifiable, the conflicts and dilemmas are so intrinsically human and arduous, and yet at the same time the setting is a fantasy world filled with bright colors, fun archetypes, moral ideals, and the shining hopes of civilization. Such a film seems tailor made for enrapturing escapist entertainment. Now, I would be ecstatic if we got a Superman film that was as good as TDK, but I think the world of Superman can create a better movie, so that's what I'm hoping for... but never expecting.


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Old 09-12-2008, 04:24 AM   #48
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

Superman Returns had plenty of scenes with more emotion than that.

I almost teared up at the end, when Superman was speaking Jor-El's lines from earlier to his son. That **** was emotional.

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Old 09-12-2008, 07:59 AM   #49
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Superman Returns had plenty of scenes with more emotion than that.

I almost teared up at the end, when Superman was speaking Jor-El's lines from earlier to his son. That **** was emotional.
I agree about that scene. It's one of the best I've seen in any Superman movie. It makes perfect sense on how it's Superman who faces fatherhood, finds a new sense in his life and is forced to not to be with his son in a normal way (just like Jor-El did). Who cares if it haven't happened in the comics, it is better than the average comic book storyline.

But I'm not comparing since the TDK scene had its own merit. It's not like TDK had tons of verbal moments (like BB did), so I didn't mind some literary scene in it after all the goodies that movie had.

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Old 09-12-2008, 08:53 AM   #50
FlawlessVictory
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Originally Posted by Katsuro View Post
Superman Returns had plenty of scenes with more emotion than that.

I almost teared up at the end, when Superman was speaking Jor-El's lines from earlier to his son. That **** was emotional.
I understand this scene was supposed to be emotional but it failed to work for me because I was never emotionally invested in any of the characters in the film to begin with. Whatever happened to any of them at the end or at any other point in the film didn't matter to me as the movie never made me care about them. I never found any of the characters likeable with the exception of Richard and even then that wasn't much.

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