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Old 09-12-2008, 08:56 AM   #51
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

^Exactely.

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Old 09-12-2008, 09:14 AM   #52
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:06 AM   #53
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I guess we should thank heavens that this disgrace will be forgotten.

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Old 09-12-2008, 05:25 PM   #54
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Perry: “An orphan may have friends…. maybe none at all…but they’re still connected to humanity….to all of us.”

Lois: “You don’t think Superman feels connected to us?”

Perry: “How could he? For all practical purposes he’s a God among mere mortals.

Lois: “And what, we “mere mortals” don’t deserve a benevolent God watching over us?”

Perry: “Deserve? Hardly. I think the fact that he is here, is a cautionary tale for us.”

Lois: “How so?”

Perry: “He’s the last son of a dead civilization, an advanced people who obviously had the ability to send him here, yet they could not save themselves. They somehow lacked the desire, or compassion, to overcome their shortsightedness…to look-out for one another. How can his existence be anything but a cautionary tale?”

Lois: “Maybe it was his destiny to come here?”

Perry: “ Perhaps, but even with all his powers and abilities, if we’re determined to try and impose our will over each other, even he won’t be able to stem the flow of suffering and chaos we inflict on ourselves.”

Lois: “ I like to think that he’s here as an example. As a symbol for us to aspire to our better angels.”

Perry: “It’d be better to live in a world that doesn’t need a Superman.”

Lois: “Well, we don’t, so we do.”

Perry: “It makes me wonder, though.”

Lois: “What does?”

Perry: “Why he does what he does. Think about it. It’s a never ending battle that he wages…trying to prevent whatever happened to his home, from happening here. When we see him, it’s usually because he’s trying to put right something that we screwed-up…and when we don’t see or hear about him, he’s probably off in some….fortress of solitude…keeping a vigil over us. Shakespeare himself couldn’t have written a more tragic character”

Lois: (looking earnestly at her boss) “ Oh, I know why he does it Chief.”

Perry: “Okay, Lane, I’ll bite..Why?”

Lois: “Because it’s his home too…….and because no one else can.”

Perry: (with Lois ,looking out the Daily Planet conference window…as Superman silhouetted by the orange-yellowed hue of sunset, drifts over Metropolis) A half smile curling the left-side of his face. “”Don’t call me Chief.”

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Old 09-12-2008, 05:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

People like to exaggerate things...

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Old 09-12-2008, 07:16 PM   #56
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

pill 1 |pil|
noun
a small round mass of solid medicine to be swallowed whole.
• ( the pill or the Pill) a contraceptive pill : she is on the pill.
informal a tedious or unpleasant person.
• informal (in some sports) a humorous term for a ball.

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Old 09-12-2008, 11:01 PM   #57
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Who is serving the chocolate cake? Chocolate cake girl from the Spider-Man movies?
If she's serving, I'll eat the slice!

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Old 09-12-2008, 11:59 PM   #58
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Exactly. For some reason, many people think to think it stems from flowery, drawn out dialogue. Not so.
Dialogue was not all that made the emotion of that scene. Not even close.

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Old 09-13-2008, 10:50 AM   #59
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

Exactly. So why did they feel the need to include so damn much of it?

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Old 09-15-2008, 05:05 AM   #60
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

A lot of people in this forum say that Gordon's epilogue at the end of the film was cheesey. If he was saying it to one of his peers, I might agree somewhat. But he is speaking to his 10 year old son. The boy who doesn't understand why Batman is running, because he knows Batman did nothing wrong. Gordon's epilogue is written the way it is because it is suppose to come across as a father talking to his son, and explaining to him why the Batman has to run.


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Old 09-15-2008, 05:22 AM   #61
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

if that's the case, it doesn't require the drammatic pauses...

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Old 09-15-2008, 06:29 AM   #62
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Originally Posted by BULLITT View Post
Perry: “An orphan may have friends…. maybe none at all…but they’re still connected to humanity….to all of us.”

Lois: “You don’t think Superman feels connected to us?”

Perry: “How could he? For all practical purposes he’s a God among mere mortals.

Lois: “And what, we “mere mortals” don’t deserve a benevolent God watching over us?”

Perry: “Deserve? Hardly. I think the fact that he is here, is a cautionary tale for us.”

Lois: “How so?”

Perry: “He’s the last son of a dead civilization, an advanced people who obviously had the ability to send him here, yet they could not save themselves. They somehow lacked the desire, or compassion, to overcome their shortsightedness…to look-out for one another. How can his existence be anything but a cautionary tale?”

Lois: “Maybe it was his destiny to come here?”

Perry: “ Perhaps, but even with all his powers and abilities, if we’re determined to try and impose our will over each other, even he won’t be able to stem the flow of suffering and chaos we inflict on ourselves.”

Lois: “ I like to think that he’s here as an example. As a symbol for us to aspire to our better angels.”

Perry: “It’d be better to live in a world that doesn’t need a Superman.”

Lois: “Well, we don’t, so we do.”

Perry: “It makes me wonder, though.”

Lois: “What does?”

Perry: “Why he does what he does. Think about it. It’s a never ending battle that he wages…trying to prevent whatever happened to his home, from happening here. When we see him, it’s usually because he’s trying to put right something that we screwed-up…and when we don’t see or hear about him, he’s probably off in some….fortress of solitude…keeping a vigil over us. Shakespeare himself couldn’t have written a more tragic character”

Lois: (looking earnestly at her boss) “ Oh, I know why he does it Chief.”

Perry: “Okay, Lane, I’ll bite..Why?”

Lois: “Because it’s his home too…….and because no one else can.”

Perry: (with Lois ,looking out the Daily Planet conference window…as Superman silhouetted by the orange-yellowed hue of sunset, drifts over Metropolis) A half smile curling the left-side of his face. “”Don’t call me Chief.”
I love this. Where is it from?

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Old 09-15-2008, 06:46 AM   #63
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Exactly. So why did they feel the need to include so damn much of it?

Simply because that's the kind of film Nolan makes.

Look at anything else he's done.

And some of us really like that style ... me for example.

There is a lot of dialogue in a Nolan film but there is also action. True, he'd rather dialogue exposition and save the action sequences to demonstrate the human conidition like Pacino running across the frozen ground in alaska in pursuit of Robin Williams. We can identify with what that must be like but it doesn't really give us plot points.

Like I said, some of us like that.

If there were only one style of film making, there wouldn't be a reason for different directors to exist. There would just be a big corporate machine that did everything by the numbers.

It's like some people enjoy Ann Rice and some people (me for example) call her writing style 'But I Digress'. While her style makes me crazy, other people it enthralls.

And no, Guard, I don't think it's necessary for you to tell us what you would do differently to give credence to your critique of a film. ... BUT your takes are always interesting and it certainly adds to your postings.


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Old 09-15-2008, 09:29 AM   #64
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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A lot of people in this forum say that Gordon's epilogue at the end of the film was cheesey. If he was saying it to one of his peers, I might agree somewhat. But he is speaking to his 10 year old son. The boy who doesn't understand why Batman is running, because he knows Batman did nothing wrong. Gordon's epilogue is written the way it is because it is suppose to come across as a father talking to his son, and explaining to him why the Batman has to run.
Jimmy = The Audience

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Old 09-15-2008, 11:13 AM   #65
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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Jimmy = The Audience
That might have worked better if they hadn's explained it in the previous conversation between Gordon and Batman...

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Old 09-15-2008, 10:12 PM   #66
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

I would first like to say that I loved the Dark Knight. It had flaws (mainly editing), sure, but so do most movies. I don't think I've ever seen a perfect film.
The dialogue at the end was a little... Dramatic, I guess. But I really liked it, even though it was explanatory.

As for a Superman movie conveying emotion? This is a given. That's what Superman has GOT on Batman to begin with. So many people arrogantly throw Superman aside in favor of Batman because "he's more complex" or "he's darker." Generally, these people don't get Superman.
Superman is emotion. He is a symbol of Hope. And yet he has complex emotions in himself. Superman For All Seasons exemplified many this perfectly.

This Superman quote trumps any moment in the Dark Knight: "They can be a great people, Kal El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son."

That line alone portrays so much of what Superman is. No other comic movie has come close to getting a character right in so few words. That statement means so many things.

Though Superman Returns was flawed, it had it's moments: "You say the world doesn't need a savior. But every day I hear them crying for one."

That's just good writing. It's moments like these that make Superman Returns. Yeah, he had a kid. It was a terrible terrible mistake. Yeah they probably should have started over instead of having a reboot four years later. And why was young Clark Kent wearing glasses? But it had scenes throughout that really got Superman right, and those had great emotion.

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Old 09-16-2008, 12:17 AM   #67
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

That was only one or maybe 2 scenes in the movie that were close to get Superman right. The rest was just a complete mess.

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:17 AM   #68
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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As for a Superman movie conveying emotion? This is a given. That's what Superman has GOT on Batman to begin with. So many people arrogantly throw Superman aside in favor of Batman because "he's more complex" or "he's darker." Generally, these people don't get Superman.
Superman is emotion. He is a symbol of Hope. And yet he has complex emotions in himself. Superman For All Seasons exemplified many this perfectly.
I agree 100%! You nailed it.

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This Superman quote trumps any moment in the Dark Knight: "They can be a great people, Kal El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son."

That line alone portrays so much of what Superman is. No other comic movie has come close to getting a character right in so few words. That statement means so many things.

Though Superman Returns was flawed, it had it's moments: "You say the world doesn't need a savior. But every day I hear them crying for one." That's just good writing.
Eh, this is where you lost me. Superman contains emotion, but it's a huge mistake to aim for emotion using the Christ analogy. Jor-El didn't send his son to earth to be its "saviour," he sent his son for human reasons, because he didn't want to see the boy die on Krypton--purely instinctual, parental love--not out of some unemotional divine "good."

See, this is where Superman movies have gone wrong. A Superman movie needs to treat its story and characters in purely human terms, not make all its characters Gods. Such misguided characterizations are why people say Superman isn't "relevant" anymore, because he's handled so poorly in movies.

You mentioned Superman For All Seasons. That's the perfect characterization of Superman, a person who questions his place in the world, who doesn't know if his life is worthwhile, who is searching for a sense of purpose, a universal dilemma that all of us go through, and even though he's the most powerful being on Earth who can make the most difference, he goes through it, too! That's what Superman should be like in a movie, fresh, vibrant, relatable.

That would make Superman relevant and it's never been done in a movie before.


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Old 09-16-2008, 09:05 AM   #69
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

Superman is getting make over, and I am extremely happy about that. Superman (1987) was a superb movie for its time but unfortunately all that followed plummeted to there deaths, this includes of course superman returns. I am not a HUGE superman fan, but I hope they give as much justice to the character as Chris Nolan gave Batman. This reboot is such a great opportunity to do so.

What I’ve always wanted form a superman movie is not the beginning of superman but the end of Kal-El and the planet Krypton. I want to see a man struggle to save his dying planet. I want to see the beginning of Brainiac. I want to see a desperate Kal-El have to give up his son, sending him to earth to protect him ( not to protect the planet earth like some sort of Jesus figure).

My fandom comes from Superman the animated series, so forgive me if I’m a bit ignorant on the comic book superman. When I say braniac I refer to the supercomputer version, I know there are others, but I like this one far better. It seams to fit so nicely.

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Old 09-16-2008, 09:32 AM   #70
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I agree 100%! You nailed it.


Eh, this is where you lost me. Superman contains emotion, but it's a huge mistake to aim for emotion using the Christ analogy. Jor-El didn't send his son to earth to be its "saviour," he sent his son for human reasons, because he didn't want to see the boy die on Krypton--purely instinctual, parental love--not out of some unemotional divine "good."

See, this is where Superman movies have gone wrong. A Superman movie needs to treat its story and characters in purely human terms, not make all its characters Gods. Such misguided characterizations are why people say Superman isn't "relevant" anymore, because he's handled so poorly in movies.
While I get what's your preference I still don't see how those analogies have ever been the ruin of the movies (STM and SII had them and they did pretty good) or are "irrelevant" or "poor" as you claim.

Sure, they don't have to turn Superman into a religious figure or put in him every Jesus refrence, but analogies have been on the characters all the time. Like Huilk and Jekyll & Hyde or Frankenstein. Some references are constantly made but Hulk is Hulk.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:06 AM   #71
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I agree 100%! You nailed it.


Eh, this is where you lost me. Superman contains emotion, but it's a huge mistake to aim for emotion using the Christ analogy. Jor-El didn't send his son to earth to be its "saviour," he sent his son for human reasons, because he didn't want to see the boy die on Krypton--purely instinctual, parental love--not out of some unemotional divine "good."

See, this is where Superman movies have gone wrong. A Superman movie needs to treat its story and characters in purely human terms, not make all its characters Gods. Such misguided characterizations are why people say Superman isn't "relevant" anymore, because he's handled so poorly in movies.
It's not that Superman is a Christ Analogy, it's that he is a Messianic Figure. This means a lone person who has the power to save many. Neo, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, all Messianic Characters. And Superman is one too. Yes his father saved his son out of instinct, but why send him to Earth? There are many other planets he could go to, but he chooses Earth in many stories because it will more than sustain him, it will give him amazing abilities that he can do good with.
Siegel and Shuster made Superman an amalgamation of Moses, Jesus, and Hercules (intentionally). Recall, they were both Jewish.
One of Superman's greatest struggles is that he wants to be Human, but he is godlike. There are many ties to Jesus, but I don't try to make it a religious thing; it's just the nature of a Messianic Character. Superman was sent here to help Humans become better themselves.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:08 AM   #72
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Superman is supposed to be a mythological character. Jesus is one of the legendary characters he is modelled after.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:15 AM   #73
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^Yes!

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Old 09-16-2008, 01:25 PM   #74
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While I get what's your preference I still don't see how those analogies have ever been the ruin of the movies (STM and SII had them and they did pretty good) or are "irrelevant" or "poor" as you claim.

Sure, they don't have to turn Superman into a religious figure or put in him every Jesus refrence, but analogies have been on the characters all the time. Like Huilk and Jekyll & Hyde or Frankenstein. Some references are constantly made but Hulk is Hulk.
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It's not that Superman is a Christ Analogy, it's that he is a Messianic Figure. This means a lone person who has the power to save many. Neo, Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, all Messianic Characters. And Superman is one too. Yes his father saved his son out of instinct, but why send him to Earth? There are many other planets he could go to, but he chooses Earth in many stories because it will more than sustain him, it will give him amazing abilities that he can do good with.
Siegel and Shuster made Superman an amalgamation of Moses, Jesus, and Hercules (intentionally). Recall, they were both Jewish.
One of Superman's greatest struggles is that he wants to be Human, but he is godlike. There are many ties to Jesus, but I don't try to make it a religious thing; it's just the nature of a Messianic Character. Superman was sent here to help Humans become better themselves.
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Superman is supposed to be a mythological character. Jesus is one of the legendary characters he is modelled after.
I think you guys are reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a mythological element to a Superman movie--of course there should be, but not Jesus specifically.

Neo, Harry Potter, and Luke Skywalker are based on what Lord Raglan called the "Hero Pattern" and the story of Jesus fits the Hero Pattern as well, as do other religious figures like Moses, Buddha, and Muhammed, as well as mythological heroes like Hercules. Superman also fits the Hero Pattern, so of course there are similarities between Superman and Jesus, just as there are similarities between Jesus and Harry Potter, Neo, and Luke Skywalker, and just as there are similarities between Superman and Muhammed. Does that mean that Superman is an Islam analogy? Of course not. Superman isn't a Christ metaphor just as he's not a Muhammed metaphor. Superman is a hero that fits the common structure of most heroes, but he is his own hero. A movie shouldn't go out of its way to connect Superman to Jesus specifically because, yes, it "ruins" the movie, or more specifically, diminishes the amount of great story material that could be used that doesn't fit into a Jesus metaphor. Donner used the Jesus metaphor and Singer used it because he did whatever Donner did. I want something new, something better.

The most powerful, emotional, resonating dilemma for Superman to go through is not that of a god desiring to be human. Superman was raised on Earth by Earth parents and so he is human, emotionally speaking. He doesn't desire to "be human," necessarily, he simply desires to belong, to have purpose, which is a completely human desire that all of us feel--we don't need to be gods to feel that. Such a dilemma was explored to perfection in Superman For All Seasons and it's the dilemma that will make movie audiences fall in love with Superman again.


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Old 09-16-2008, 02:37 PM   #75
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Default Re: Do you think a Superman film scence can hold as much emotion as this?

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I think you misunderstood me slightly. I wasn't talking about cinematography or "imagery," as you mentioned. I agree that there are many beautiful single images in The Dark Knight--the film was well photographed. What I was trying to talk about is the visual storytelling language, meaning the overall method that the director chooses to deliver the story to the audience and, more specifically, the actual scene coverage, the combination of shots for each scene and how those shots are ordered and paced, strategically revealing the necessary information to the audience at each passing moment.

Nolan's visual language is non-existent because his method is dialogue, which, generally speaking, is not as engulfing of an experience as visual storytelling. There are many examples of this fact besides Gordon's epilogue.
In TDK, the skipping of some chances to show you something visually was understandable because they want you to see the result of Joker's plans rather than how he implements them. That's why you don't ever see Joker mulling around in his lair about his evil plans. He just appears, causes havoc, and is gone.

I agree that the Joker "ace in the hole" speech was on the spoon-feeding side, as was Batman's "you're the symbol of hope I could never be" speech. I loved the Joker's speech to Harvey Dent in the hospital, because it seems like he's being obvious, but he's really spewing manipulative skeeze the entire time.

I think Nolan prefers to convey a mood through visuals, not necessarily use it to tell the story. Every shot of TDK was bursting with tension, and that's something you can't really show through dialogue or even plot. Plus, I feel he had to take shortcuts through TDK because there was just so much going on plot-wise.

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Like this?





EDIT: Crook already did it, but with a different panel.

Good stuff, regardless.
I don't think that'd necessarily be the ending of a Superman movie, but it's still a pretty awesome exchange.

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I still can't believe people like that sequence so much. It's just Gordon stating the obvious in the most pandering and overwrought manner imaginable.
It's actually not. The words themselves are on the dramatic side, but if you pay attention to the visuals, Nolan wraps up several subplots while Batman and Gordon are talking, and they all of them relate to the speech. It was a more economical way of doing it all at once rather than do it the way LOTR: ROTK did it, which was to take an extra 20 minutes wrapping everything up.

Nolan may not be a very visual storyteller, but I just adore the way he's able to juxtapose timelines, images, and dialogue together to construct a story on screen. It's just really fascinating how he does it.

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