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Old 09-15-2008, 10:48 PM   #1
Reebee52
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Default The Problem With Superman

I love Superman. It's become a dangerous obsession of mine, in the last few years.
I didn't read comics or watch cartoons when I was younger. If you asked me about Superman I would know basics. I would know Krypton, Lex Luthor, Lois Lane. I wouldn't have known 'Kal El.' I saw Batman Begins, this erupted a sudden interest in DC comics that lead me to Smallville. Superman. I was hooked.
Since then it's been downhill. I watched Smallville, awaited and dressed up for Superman Returns (and saw it three times in theatres after. I still defend this movie, despite some flaws), watched the Christopher Reeve movies, bought all the Bruce Timm JLU and Superman series, and last winter, after two years of fandom, read my first Superman comic (graphic novel?) It was Superman Birthright, and after all the others I've read is still my likely favorite. Now I have a small alter to Superman in my room, with books and figures and buckets and lunch boxes: many were gifts from other people, but the collection grows.
So what's the problem with Superman?
Exactly what I've just pointed out. Superman is my hero. I love him, I try to be him, if I had a wish it would be to be Superman. I think, deep down, everybody's favorite hero is Superman. Even the people who claim Batman is their guy, somewhere in their subconscious there's Superman waiting to get out. The reason is his versatility. Everybody, like I have, makes him their own. They have in their minds the way he acts, the way he looks, the things he stands for, there own personal Superman.
Surfing through these forums I see argument after argument over what should be in the next movie. Should it have a Krypton, who should be the villain, what should his suit look like, was the Red in Superman Returns too dark or not? It is this tension that causes such problems in making a movie with the Man of Steel.
Clearly there are some things that shouldn't happen. His suit shouldn't be black, and the bad guy probably shouldn't be Mr. Mxylptlc (if I spelled that right I deserve a medal). But if fans and creators can't agree on something nothing will ever get done. Isn't it enough that Superman's suit is Red Blue and Yellow and that it has an S on the chest? I see people comparing different pictures of what they see Superman was, and I enjoy all of them, seeing the subtle differences in their creations. But they are all Superman and all of them would be fine on screen. In fact if we had a new Superman movie every year and they had different model costumes for each one I'd love it. I badly want a Superman movie with Darkseid, but I'd rather have Mongul than no movie at all.
Now we have Mark Millar talking about his planned story, Brian Singer still hasn't commented about his position in a reboot (maybe he can't), comic-book writers saying their stories would be the best movies, and if this keeps going on we're going to end in a developmental hell again, that kept Superman out of movies for twenty years and at one point had a script where he was in black fighting a giant spider. This cost money, and eventually cut into Superman Returns budget, thus making the movie less 'successful.' They had spent fifty MILLION dollars on Superman before Singer was even signed. I fear if this tug of war with Superman's red cape continues we will follow down that path once more.
Warner's just had a huge success with the Dark Knight. Come off that and fire out a good Superman movie that has bits and pieces of what most people want. And as fans, don't complain that the S wasn't big enough or that his neckline was too narrow, just be glad that his primary colors was in the mainstream again.
Make Superman your own, but accept that there are many ways to interpret the character, and that yours won't always be in the forefront. But hopefully if he gets enough public support, there will be enough screentime of Superman to fully please everyone.

I don't know why I wrote this. It was one of those moments where I felt compelled to say something, even if nobody would read it.

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Old 09-15-2008, 11:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: The problem with Superman

^^ I have no idea what the hell you are trying to say.

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Old 09-15-2008, 11:32 PM   #3
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Default Re: The problem with Superman

I think its pretty simple what he is saying, stop being nitpicky. To an extent I agree and to another I disagree. First, if you read the costume section its pretty ridiculous IMO, people complain about the SR costume as if its the worst to hit the screen. Personally looking at the costume, it said superman no matter how dark people think the red is. Although I do agree with some in that the execution could have been better, but the idea was there. If they make another film, take that and make it better.

On the other side of things I think we need to have people complain because if they didn't it would be a boring forum. I think a good origin film can unite the fans, but at the same time I think a there are a few things fans need to do.

First, STM was good, but let it go, that was thirty years ago. Second, Christopher Reeve was a great actor, that doesn't mean another actor can't play superman. Third, Smallville should not be a basis for the movie and to think everyone and their mother watches the show is a mistake. Fourth, if tom welling isn't chosen don't harp on the skills of the new actor because lets face it, welling isn't the best there is. Fifth, the comics aren't the be and end all of the character, its the spirit thats important (see TDK, that movie did the joker better than the comics). Lastly, the costume isn't the main problem and really if the movie is good the last thing on peoples minds is "that shade of red is horrible". Thats my two cents.

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:35 AM   #4
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:13 AM   #5
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I think its pretty simple what he is saying, stop being nitpicky. To an extent I agree and to another I disagree. First, if you read the costume section its pretty ridiculous IMO, people complain about the SR costume as if its the worst to hit the screen.
Much worse: They use the SR costume to claim that his comic suit doesn't work on screen.

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: The problem with Superman

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Originally Posted by Reebee52 View Post
Even the people who claim Batman is their guy, somewhere in their subconscious there's Superman waiting to get out.
Sig-worthy!!!

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But if fans and creators can't agree on something nothing will ever get done.
What do you mean "fans and creators"? You think they (or anyone) need us to agreed on something here?

I don't know why I wrote this. j/k. But it was nice reading your thoughts.



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Solidsnake is right, though, the problem with Superman Returns wasn't the costume and that's not why audiences didn't enjoy the movie. They didn't enjoy it because the story was flat, the characterizations were poor, and (I know a lot of people on these boards disagree with this, but) the cast was horrible.
If that was the problem then Spiderman 3 (and many other movies) would have totally flopped at the BO.

Problem was that they wanted more action, CGI action and not to take the character seriously. Most audiences consider Superman a mere excuse for fun with some "message" peppered now and then.

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Reebee52 View Post
deep down, everybody's favorite hero is Superman. Even the people who claim Batman is their guy, somewhere in their subconscious there's Superman waiting to get out.
Wrong


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Old 09-16-2008, 09:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: The problem with Superman

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I love Superman. It's become a dangerous obsession of mine, in the last few years.
I didn't read comics or watch cartoons when I was younger. If you asked me about Superman I would know basics. I would know Krypton, Lex Luthor, Lois Lane. I wouldn't have known 'Kal El.' I saw Batman Begins, this erupted a sudden interest in DC comics that lead me to Smallville. Superman. I was hooked.
Since then it's been downhill. I watched Smallville, awaited and dressed up for Superman Returns (and saw it three times in theatres after. I still defend this movie, despite some flaws), watched the Christopher Reeve movies, bought all the Bruce Timm JLU and Superman series, and last winter, after two years of fandom, read my first Superman comic (graphic novel?) It was Superman Birthright, and after all the others I've read is still my likely favorite. Now I have a small alter to Superman in my room, with books and figures and buckets and lunch boxes: many were gifts from other people, but the collection grows.
So what's the problem with Superman?
Exactly what I've just pointed out. Superman is my hero. I love him, I try to be him, if I had a wish it would be to be Superman. I think, deep down, everybody's favorite hero is Superman. Even the people who claim Batman is their guy, somewhere in their subconscious there's Superman waiting to get out. The reason is his versatility. Everybody, like I have, makes him their own. They have in their minds the way he acts, the way he looks, the things he stands for, there own personal Superman.
Surfing through these forums I see argument after argument over what should be in the next movie. Should it have a Krypton, who should be the villain, what should his suit look like, was the Red in Superman Returns too dark or not? It is this tension that causes such problems in making a movie with the Man of Steel.
Clearly there are some things that shouldn't happen. His suit shouldn't be black, and the bad guy probably shouldn't be Mr. Mxylptlc (if I spelled that right I deserve a medal). But if fans and creators can't agree on something nothing will ever get done. Isn't it enough that Superman's suit is Red Blue and Yellow and that it has an S on the chest? I see people comparing different pictures of what they see Superman was, and I enjoy all of them, seeing the subtle differences in their creations. But they are all Superman and all of them would be fine on screen. In fact if we had a new Superman movie every year and they had different model costumes for each one I'd love it. I badly want a Superman movie with Darkseid, but I'd rather have Mongul than no movie at all.
Now we have Mark Millar talking about his planned story, Brian Singer still hasn't commented about his position in a reboot (maybe he can't), comic-book writers saying their stories would be the best movies, and if this keeps going on we're going to end in a developmental hell again, that kept Superman out of movies for twenty years and at one point had a script where he was in black fighting a giant spider. This cost money, and eventually cut into Superman Returns budget, thus making the movie less 'successful.' They had spent fifty MILLION dollars on Superman before Singer was even signed. I fear if this tug of war with Superman's red cape continues we will follow down that path once more.
Warner's just had a huge success with the Dark Knight. Come off that and fire out a good Superman movie that has bits and pieces of what most people want. And as fans, don't complain that the S wasn't big enough or that his neckline was too narrow, just be glad that his primary colors was in the mainstream again.
Make Superman your own, but accept that there are many ways to interpret the character, and that yours won't always be in the forefront. But hopefully if he gets enough public support, there will be enough screentime of Superman to fully please everyone.

I don't know why I wrote this. It was one of those moments where I felt compelled to say something, even if nobody would read it.
Sooooo...I guess we should rename this thread to "The problem with Fanboys"

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Old 09-16-2008, 09:54 AM   #9
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Sooooo...I guess we should rename this thread to "The problem with Fanboys"
Haha, I'm not sure if you're accusing me of that or not. If you are, I would have to agree, I'm a HUGE fan of Superman. Obviously, I just wrote a friggin essay for no reason. But I'm not the fanboy that freaks out if the movie deviates from tradition a little, or thinks it's my vision or no vision.

The thing about Superman Returns is: People did enjoy the movie. Not as many as The Dark Knight and what not, but for the most part people liked it. I liked it. I still hate the fact that he had a son with a human... (despite the very poignant ending), but I liked seeing Superman catch airplanes and giant globes (we do need to see a punch, though). People outside of Superman's world enjoyed the movie. I had people claim to me that they were going to hate it, one friend right before it started, and he came out with a huge smile saying he loved it. That's awesome to me, because even if the movie didn't do everything right (Lois, has a son, out of wedlock, with an alien), it turned him onto the hero.
I've been watching Lois and Clark for a year now, on DVD. God that show is terrible! Bad effects, bad stories, I don't see how it did well. And the answer is, because it's Superman. It's fun just watching him onscreen, doing amazing things even if it's very subpar special effects. So I enjoy it.
Same with Smallville. Yeah it altered some history, and has some impossible plot holes to fill (what he puts on glasses and no one notices anymore?). But I love seeing Clark Kent and Lois Lane together, have the first Live Action Brainiac show up, and the first unanimated Justice league (kind of). Yeah the show has some bad moments, and I want to see him in the suit in the end, but I enjoy it for what it is.
Do I think the creator's need us fans to agree? No, but my point is NO ONE agrees. Everybody is a fan, so everybody has their vision, even the creators. I mean, Mark Millar has this pitch that's not even official yet, and he says he's had this idea since he was ten. Now if that's not fanboy, what is?


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Old 09-16-2008, 09:59 AM   #10
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I've been watching Lois and Clark for a year now, on DVD. God that show is terrible! Bad effects, bad stories, I don't see how it did well.
Agreed

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:04 AM   #11
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Haha, I'm not sure if you're accusing me of that or not. If you are, I would have to agree, I'm a HUGE fan of Superman. Obviously, I just wrote a friggin essay for no reason. But I'm not the fanboy that freaks out if the movie deviates from tradition a little, or thinks it's my vision or no vision.
Well, that was the point of your post, no? To call out the fanboys who can't agree on what they want on Superman?

I don't freak out over 100% faithfulness to the mythos, or lack thereof, and I'm huge Superman fan. I loved SR. I've loved most of the Superman comics I have gotten my hands onto (I still have a lot of pending reading material) I loved STAS, the previous movies...You know the score.

Anyway, I enjoy different takes on the character, so, as long as the end result is good, you won't find me b*tching too much. Some fans need to be more open minded. Some are incredibly over-protective of the character. Some fans just hate anything different, but you can't really blame them, I guess. We all grew up with Superman, after all. It's a huge part of our lives.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:10 AM   #12
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Well, that was the point of your post, no? To call out the fanboys who can't agree on what they want on Superman?

I don't freak out over 100% faithfulness to the mythos, or lack thereof, and I'm huge Superman fan. I loved SR. I've loved most of the Superman comics I have gotten my hands onto (I still have a lot of pending reading material) I loved STAS, the previous movies...You know the score.

Anyway, I enjoy different takes on the character, so, as long as the end result is good, you won't find me b*tching too much. Some fans need to be more open minded. Some are incredibly over-protective of the character. Some fans just hate anything different, but you can't really blame them, I guess. We all grew up with Superman, after all. It's a huge part of our lives.
Ah yes, I see. That was my point.
See, what you said, "I enjoy different takes on the character, so long as the end result is good." That's exactly the attitude that needs to be taken. There are certainly ways Superman could be done that everybody would hate. But too often people don't accept fine versions of Superman because its not strictly theirs. Enjoy the variety, so long as it gets the essence of the character.

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Old 09-16-2008, 10:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: The problem with Superman

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Enjoy the variety, so long as it gets the essence of the character.
Ah....but that's the rub isn't it.

There must be a rule to judge whether the variety violates the essence.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:01 AM   #14
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Ah....but that's the rub isn't it.

There must be a rule to judge whether the variety violates the essence.
I suppose this is true, but I should clarify.
The essence of the character can come in many different forms and through many different interpretations. So far the only time I've ever seen anything that I felt was untrue to Superman's essence was in The Dark Knight Returns, but even that had it's moments.
I suppose I mean variety of whatever essence shines through the most. It's rare that someone totally misses the Superman character completely. Returns had focus on Superman's savior/isolationism. Lois and Clark focuses on Superman's more upbeat side. The Animated Series focusses on the action, power part os his overall essence. But generally, all parts are there. It's just which part comes through strongest.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:27 AM   #15
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Well. I hated SR and thank god it was scrapped. But it is BS that we cant agree on anything about a reboot.

1)I guess most of us would be happy if Cavill is the next Superman.
2)If the villain of the movie is Brainiac.
3)If the costume is classic but looks damn cool.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:48 AM   #16
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No... The problem isnt Superman, Its everybody wants to change him and if you change well he really aint Superman he is another hero. change for the sake of change isnt always a good Idea and Superman doesnt need changed the Actors, characters, and story need to change. that was what was wrong with Returns. Superman changed and the story and characters did not they where campy Lex, same story as STM, with a kid, a cool plane scene and no real emagination from Singer.

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Old 09-16-2008, 12:06 PM   #17
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"Well. I hated SR and thank god it was scrapped. But it is BS that we cant agree on anything about a reboot.

1)I guess most of us would be happy if Cavill is the next Superman.
2)If the villain of the movie is Brainiac.
3)If the costume is classic but looks damn cool."
See you hated Superman Returns but a lot of people didn't. I liked most everything but the kid.
I'm fine with Cavill as Superman, but I liked Routh a lot, too, and I'd be okay with an unknown.
Brainiac would be a great villain, but I'd prefer Darkseid, and there are many who want someone else
I have never seen a Superman Costume that wasn't classic OR cool.


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No... The problem isnt Superman, Its everybody wants to change him and if you change well he really aint Superman he is another hero. change for the sake of change isnt always a good Idea and Superman doesnt need changed the Actors, characters, and story need to change. that was what was wrong with Returns. Superman changed and the story and characters did not they where campy Lex, same story as STM, with a kid, a cool plane scene and no real emagination from Singer.
I'd like to point out that many people say the problem with SR returns is that Superman did NOT change, but was too much an imitation of Christopher Reeves and Superman The Movie. And I personally didn't find Lex Campy, I thought Kevin Spacey was one of the best things in the film, even though I'd prefer a younger Lex who runs a major corporation.

And there we go again, spinning opinions of what has to be and what must not be.

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Old 09-16-2008, 03:14 PM   #18
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Wrong

wrong picture, wrong movie... 'Wrong' was from Commando, not Predator

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Old 09-16-2008, 03:15 PM   #19
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See you hated Superman Returns but a lot of people didn't. I liked most everything but the kid.
I'm fine with Cavill as Superman, but I liked Routh a lot, too, and I'd be okay with an unknown.
Brainiac would be a great villain, but I'd prefer Darkseid, and there are many who want someone else
I have never seen a Superman Costume that wasn't classic OR cool.



I'd like to point out that many people say the problem with SR returns is that Superman did NOT change, but was too much an imitation of Christopher Reeves and Superman The Movie. And I personally didn't find Lex Campy, I thought Kevin Spacey was one of the best things in the film, even though I'd prefer a younger Lex who runs a major corporation.

And there we go again, spinning opinions of what has to be and what must not be.
I didnt say anything about Chris Reeve I said Superman and I was meaning all the suit changes. Like Returns and that have been posted here on this board. I like Superman Classic suit, I didn't say it couldnt be updated but... Still the Classic Suit. Could it be better than STM Suit or Esp. the Returns Suit?
YES!

I Liked Lex more in Returns than I did in STM but... I like Lex in Smallville Better than both. And I agree with you lex should be more a Corp Tycoon.

And Like you, I am a Superman Fan with an opinion. An Old Superman fan but still a fan none the less. prolly old enough to be or older than your father.

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:35 PM   #20
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I didnt say anything about Chris Reeve I said Superman and I was meaning all the suit changes. Like Returns and that have been posted here on this board. I like Superman Classic suit, I didn't say it couldnt be updated but... Still the Classic Suit. Could it be better than STM Suit or Esp. the Returns Suit?
YES!

I Liked Lex more in Returns than I did in STM but... I like Lex in Smallville Better than both. And I agree with you lex should be more a Corp Tycoon.

And Like you, I am a Superman Fan with an opinion. An Old Superman fan but still a fan none the less. prolly old enough to be or older than your father.
Haha if that's true I commend you. My father can hardly work a computer, much less figure out a message board!

I agree, Lex in Smallville is great, probably my favorite live action Lex ever (though I think John Shea in Lois in Clark was pretty damn good).
The thing about the suit is this: It's always blue tights, red capes, yellow belt, red boots, and a Red S in a diamond on his chest. BAM! done. Any variety in that pleases me. If they wanted to go REALLY classic they could have the S in a triangle instead of a pentagon, or a have a black background (as in A New Frontier). I was okay with a black background, kind of, but a triangle is different. These are what I'd consider the more 'drastic' changes that might warrant discussion.
But the Superman Return was a variety of the classic suit, which works great. I don't think it made enough changes to warrant the outlash that some people give it. When people fight over that too much, it's no wonder movies aren't made more often.

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:50 PM   #21
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Haha if that's true I commend you. My father can hardly work a computer, much less figure out a message board!

I agree, Lex in Smallville is great, probably my favorite live action Lex ever (though I think John Shea in Lois in Clark was pretty damn good).
The thing about the suit is this: It's always blue tights, red capes, yellow belt, red boots, and a Red S in a diamond on his chest. BAM! done. Any variety in that pleases me. If they wanted to go REALLY classic they could have the S in a triangle instead of a pentagon, or a have a black background (as in A New Frontier). I was okay with a black background, kind of, but a triangle is different. These are what I'd consider the more 'drastic' changes that might warrant discussion.
But the Superman Return was a variety of the classic suit, which works great. I don't think it made enough changes to warrant the outlash that some people give it. When people fight over that too much, it's no wonder movies aren't made more often.

agreed on the suit. It looked fine on screen, it looked weird in still photo. It could be tweaked, but only we, we nerds would really be looking for crap like that. blue spandos, red boots, red trunks, red cape and shield on front. Everything else is irrelevant detail, just as long as the ensemble looks good. Looked good in SR, and for it's time, looked good in the STM franchismo

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:45 PM   #22
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I thought that the only BIG problem with the suit was the neckline. It just looked that it was suffocating Routh and it didn't look good at all.

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:09 PM   #23
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I think that the fanboys did and still do whine about the SR suit far too much. That was the least of that movie's problems.

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:13 PM   #24
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Still a BIG problem, IMO. If the visual representation of Superman is not right, then I doubt the director would be capable to make the rest right. And he didn't.

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Old 09-16-2008, 08:14 PM   #25
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So this is "The problem with SUPERMAN RETURNS", not Superman...

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A symbol in the skies at night
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