DTL Season 6-Week 2 (Set 2)

[Khellendros]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

But he did set them up. They didn't just pretend that he set them up. He really set them up. That's proof.

Yes, but we don't know how. You want us to believe he could do it over and over again to the point that he could cover most of the house in only a single day. I say it's far more likely a medium level mage couldn't pull that kind of power off, unless you can prove he can. Just proving he can cast the spell ONCE, and that he set up a trap in an indeterminate amount of time doesn't make your case.

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Which one? The one about length of time? I didn't ignore it. There's no evidence regarding how long it takes, so we assume it takes no longer than the casting of the spells themselves. Or the question about whether he needed physical materials? Because the answer to that question was no. And I answered it.

Why do we assume it only takes that long? And why do we assume he can cast that many spells, in the form of traps, over such a short period of time? I mean, other than the fact that assuming these things benefits you.

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Read it again. He did the same with the harmful radiation. He literally pulled it into him with his hands, and made it a physical, black substance.

Yes, AFTER he basically changed his powers around to interact with it they way he could could solar energy. He CAN NOT just manipulate any such energy on a whim.

Originally Posted by Aristotle

So he converted back to a physical being.

Riiight, so he used up so much energy it killed him, but still somehow managed to stick aroundjust long enough to leave behind a charred corpse? BS. He increased his size, was glowing with energy, and when he spent all his energy he had shrunk back down and was burnt out.

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Quantum telekinesis has been used for at least a few issues of Resurrection Man.

Annd, which issue was it that Ressurection Man grabbed energy like it was a solid object?

Originally Posted by Aristotle

And it's been used in quite similar ways. The ways Superman-16 used his powers imply quantum telekinesis.

Please, grabbing one specific kind of energy does not imply such a broad power description as "quantum telekinesis".

Originally Posted by Aristotle

Can you find another way to describe physically grasping intangible things like energy beams and radiation. Or another way to describe transforming radiation into a physical, black substance? What was it, magic? Superstrength?

He didn't transform the radiation into a black substance, it was already and always black, he just grabbed onto it after manipulating his powers the way he had with heatvision and the art was so awful it made it look like he was shoving a slab of rock into his chest.

And, what would I call that? Energy manipulation. It's always been thought that Kryptonians have some sort of EM-based energy field. Could just be he was containing it with his personal force field. Containing energy and having quantum telekinesis are NOT the same thing, though.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

Yes, but we don't know how. You want us to believe he could do it over and over again to the point that he could cover most of the house in only a single day. I say it's far more likely a medium level mage couldn't pull that kind of power off, unless you can prove he can. Just proving he can cast the spell ONCE, and that he set up a trap in an indeterminate amount of time doesn't make your case.

He's cast those particular spells many times, and he's done it quickly. So your argument is that even though he can cast all those spells quickly, this time he might not be able to?

Why do we assume it only takes that long?

Because that's how long it takes to cast them in the comics?

And why do we assume he can cast that many spells, in the form of traps, over such a short period of time?

Because there's no reason to assume otherwise? Burden of proof's on the prosecution, man.

Yes, AFTER he basically changed his powers around to interact with it they way he could could solar energy. He CAN NOT just manipulate any such energy on a whim.

It took him like five seconds to figure out what to do with that energy. However, I'd like to point out that I'm not having him interact with energy in my writeup. That's just an example of quantum telekinesis.

He increased his size, was glowing with energy, and when he spent all his energy he had shrunk back down and was burnt out.

Right. He reverted to his original form since his consciousness was no longer alive enough to maintain his form as an energy being.

Please, grabbing one specific kind of energy does not imply such a broad power description as "quantum telekinesis".

I'm waiting for you to tell me what else it is. It has all the hallmarks of what quantum telekinesis has been shown to be in comics.

He didn't transform the radiation into a black substance, it was already and always black, he just grabbed onto it after manipulating his powers the way he had with heatvision and the art was so awful it made it look like he was shoving a slab of rock into his chest.

So we're arguing over whether or not he changed the color of the radiation. Well, I didn't see it as being black radiation until he made it tangible. Apparently you read the art a different way. It was crappy art, so there's probably a reason we're not seeing the same things.

And, what would I call that? Energy manipulation.

That is not remotely what energy manipulation means in comics.

It's always been thought that Kryptonians have some sort of EM-based energy field.

But never shown in the comics, so it doesn't apply.

Could just be he was containing it with his personal force field. Containing energy and having quantum telekinesis are NOT the same thing, though.

Could be? You're arguing based on what could be?

[XFanTim]

I'm still not sure who I'm voting for in the other match, but since no one else has voted I guess there's no rush.

I haven't read anything with Superman-16, but for me whether you call his power "telekinesis" or "quantum telekinesis" doesn't really matter much. What I'd want to know is how powerful his TK is relative to Cable's. Of course speed is also a consideration. Is the only evidence of Cable's supposed "light-speed reflexes" the fight with Lightmaster? Also, has Faust ever given people psi-shields strong enough to withstand high-level uber telepathy? Or are we just assuming that any mage, even a med-level mage, can shield people from top-notch telepathy?

[Khellendros]

Originally Posted by XFanTim

I'm still not sure who I'm voting for in the other match, but since no one else has voted I guess there's no rush.

I haven't read anything with Superman-16, but for me whether you call his power "telekinesis" or "quantum telekinesis" doesn't really matter much. What I'd want to know is how powerful his TK is relative to Cable's. Of course speed is also a consideration. Is the only evidence of Cable's supposed "light-speed reflexes" the fight with Lightmaster? Also, has Faust ever given people psi-shields strong enough to withstand high-level uber telepathy? Or are we just assuming that any mage, even a med-level mage, can shield people from top-notch telepathy?

Superman showed the ability to grab energy. First, he grabbed the heatvision of two other Supermen. Then, after taking a while and consciously changing the type of radiation he derived his powers from, he did the same thing to an otherwise deadly radiation that was present outside the arena. Ari is taking these two examples, and now saying he can rewrite the laws of physics.

And, the Lightmaster fight? You mean where Cable read the mind of a guy whose thoughts (and whole body, actually) were pure light, and got up a TK shield in time to stop him when he was projecting himself back from the moon at slightly faster than light speed (because Cable mentioned he was a fraction of a second early)? Yes, that's the evidence I'm using. But I never claimed reflexes, he can obviously psychically fight a guy who's thinking and moving at light speed with little notable strain, though. All while deconstructing and rebuilding a multiple-story-tall machine, by the way.

[Franklin Richards]

The Immortals


Hard to fight that Silver Surfer / Cable combo. However I do agree with Ari in the fact that Iceman is not a murderous ****. However the lineup seems stronger with the Immortals.

[Aristotle]

DOES NOBODY CARE ABOUT THE RULE WHERE YOU HAVE TO PUT ALL POWERS YOU PLAN TO USE IN BRIEF DESCRIPTIONS ANYMORE? Jesus Christ, people, he's claiming superspeed and never put it in the description and you're letting him get away with that bull****?

Originally Posted by XFanTim

What I'd want to know is how powerful his TK is relative to Cable's.

More powerful, to put it bluntly.

Also, has Faust ever given people psi-shields strong enough to withstand high-level uber telepathy? Or are we just assuming that any mage, even a med-level mage, can shield people from top-notch telepathy?

He's done some pretty heavy-duty psi-shielding.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

Superman showed the ability to grab energy. First, he grabbed the heatvision of two other Supermen. Then, after taking a while and consciously changing the type of radiation he derived his powers from, he did the same thing to an otherwise deadly radiation that was present outside the arena. Ari is taking these two examples, and now saying he can rewrite the laws of physics.

You should be a politician. By accusing me of being a consistent liar, you deftly avoid any scrutiny of your own blatant, obvious, and clear lies. Superman-16 took mere moments to adjust the entire cellular makeup of his body to convert deadly radiation into the equivalent of yellow-sun radiation. He effortlessly grabbed hold of intangible things.

And yet, I'm not saying he can rewrite the laws of physics. I'm actually firmly maintaining that he can't and doesn't do that. He can manipulate physics, however, because that's what quantum telekinesis is. It is telekinesis that can not only manipulate the tangible, but also the intangible.

And, the Lightmaster fight? You mean where Cable read the mind of a guy whose thoughts (and whole body, actually) were pure light, and got up a TK shield in time to stop him when he was projecting himself back from the moon at slightly faster than light speed (because Cable mentioned he was a fraction of a second early)? Yes, that's the evidence I'm using. But I never claimed reflexes, he can obviously psychically fight a guy who's thinking and moving at light speed with little notable strain, though. All while deconstructing and rebuilding a multiple-story-tall machine, by the way.

None of this matters. If the DTL actually cared about enforcing rules, you'd lose purely on this. You're claiming victory in a fight based very largely upon you use of a superpower that you did not delineate in your descriptions. There should be no votes for you, but they'll vote for you anyway because of your bull**** and your accusations.

[Franklin Richards]

Teams will be given a very brief description of the opponents in the form of character names, pictures, and basic breakdown of powers

Basic can be interpreted. For instance I put "Vampire" as part of Dracula's description. That suggests alot of things. Also on Dr. Doom I put "armor" which contains flight, but I didn't put that.

Also if I put "genius" that means alot of different things. Just like "mage". So not listing a power may have been covered in the basic breakdown.

[Aristotle]

Oh really? A basic breakdown of powers can omit something as game-changing as SUPERSPEED? Just admit you're permavoting against me for the whole season and be done with it, Frank. I really don't know what I ever did that pisses you off so much except joke around with you, but clearly I'll be paying for it all season.

"Basic breakdowns." Unbelievable.

[XFanTim]

Originally Posted by Aristotle

More powerful, to put it bluntly.

He's done some pretty heavy-duty psi-shielding.

Specific examples demonstrating either of these would be nice. Like I said I don't know Superman-16, but I know this version of Cable has some pretty impressive telekinetic feats.

Regarding whether Khell should have listed superspeed, personally I'm still not convinced Cable has significant superspeed (beyond the whole speed-of-thought thing that every telepath has.) Here's a summary of the Lightmaster fight:

- Lightmaster lands three unblocked blows against Cable, mostly because he's fast and it's hard to "lock in on thought patterns that have been converted to pure light."
- They exchange a little bit of dialogue, and while they're talking Cable telekinetically wraps some metal around Lightmaster and teleports him to the Moon. (I don't think this required superspeed, since Lightmaster was standing still talking to him when it happened.)
- Lightmaster charges from the Moon to Earth, and Cable timed his return trip and threw up a shield in time to block him. (This is the only time in the fight that Cable successfully blocked Lightmaster's attack, and he had over a second of advance warning -- since it takes more than a second for light to go from the Moon to the Earth.)

[Aristotle]

I'm with you on that skepticism. As a matter of fact, I had assumed that Khel had given up pretending Cable had superspeed since he didn't list it. But even if he can prove superspeed, it's moot since he didn't list it.

Regarding Superman-16: Not to harp on a point, but he has quantum telekinesis. His telekinesis is strong enough that he can interact with, both bodily and telekinetically, with intangible objects, and has been shown to do so with heat vision beams and radiation. He also completely rearranged the cellular structure of his body so that he could use lethal radiation in the same way that most Kryptonians use solar radiation.

Regarding Faust: I'm just not going to have time to go through the whole run of Outsiders that he was in. If that means you don't believe me, then fine. I guess I can't prove it at this stage of the match. However, at the speeds Superman-16 can move at, Cable's telepathy is meaningless, because he's just regular speed, either because he doesn't have the power or because Khel failed to list it (or quite possibly both, really.)

Cable is completely outclassed in that fight.

[Franklin Richards]

Faust should be able to whip up some rudimentary protection even from an Uber Telepath. Could the Uber telepath work real hard and break through the protection? Probably but it would at least balk them and leave them open for attack.

[Ahura Mazda]

I would like to give this battle to the Polka dot Fuscia Corps based on the line up but given there is no opposing write up I have to go with Franklin.

[Aristotle]

Yeah, I guess I didn't vote yet. Yancy Street.

[Nightwing.]

I have to agree with Ari...I felt Khell missed out proper explainations of his characters powers even when I questioned him about them he still waited until the battle or after to tell me about it.

and onto the votes

Yancy Street Gang vs. The Polka Dot Fuchsia Lantern Corps - Corp next time put down the controller and do a write up...although Franklin had a prety strong debate for taking your team down...
The Immortals vs. The Authorititans - Authorititans would have a much stronger battle with their meds and regs but its the ubers that pip the line for Immortals.

[LadyVader]

Yancy Street Gang

Authorititans - because Khell did under write a couple of characters.

[Khellendros]

The superspeed thing was a legitimate mistake. It's not like I've hid his speed, I've been claiming it since last season. And I didn't list him as having super speed then, either. Still, if people want to change votes because of it, I won't cry about it.

Originally Posted by XFanTim

- Lightmaster charges from the Moon to Earth, and Cable timed his return trip and threw up a shield in time to block him. (This is the only time in the fight that Cable successfully blocked Lightmaster's attack, and he had over a second of advance warning -- since it takes more than a second for light to go from the Moon to the Earth.)

Actually, if you look at the scan, he doesn't notice Lightmaster is on his way back until Lightmaster, basically a human-sized column of light, if visible behind him. Meaning Lightmaster had made almost the entire trip back before Cable noticed him, MUCH LESS began throwing up a TK shield. And Cable says he was early, Cable was not expecting him yet.

And, the guy is made of pure light. He all but says "Hey, man, I'm thinking at lightspeed here". I really do think it was the writer's intent to show Cable beating a guy who moved/thought at light speed, and implied it pretty heavily.

And, I'm sorry, but how do we know he was standing still when before Cable started wrapping him up with metal? In one panel, Lightmaster is obviously in motion, leaving behind afterimages he's moving so fast, then in the very next panel, Cable's already got metal wrapping him up.

[Khellendros]

Voting for Yancy Street, obviously, by the way.

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by Khellendros

The superspeed thing was a legitimate mistake. It's not like I've hid his speed, I've been claiming it since last season. And I didn't list him as having super speed then, either. Still, if people want to change votes because of it, I won't cry about it.

Don't be silly, it's just a flagrantly broken rule. They won't care about it till it's done to them.

[Khellendros]

Except now that I know it's an issue, I'll rectify it. Like I said, last season it didn't seem to be.

[Aristotle]

Not listing superspeed as a superpower? Seriously? You're going to pretend you wouldn't have raised a ****-fit about anyone else failing to list superspeed in descriptions? And you call me a liar.

[Khellendros]

Superspeed reactions? I honestly don't know. Again, though, no one said anything last season. Now that someone has, it's been changed.

[Franklin Richards]

I thought the speed of "thought" was fast enough anyway.

[Khellendros]

Fast enough for what?

[Franklin Richards]

Things like :

Turning on your personal forcefield at the beginning of the match before a speedster knocks you out.

Teleportation.