Boy, 8, dies after firing Uzi at gun show

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by Handsome Rob

Fault? Yes. It sounds like the instructor and the father bear responsibility here (the instructor at least).

I still have no problem with children using firearms under adult supervision. But, those adults need to recognize their responsibility to make sure the child can use the weapon responsibly, and I do believe they need to be held accountable if they don't.

Agreed-- to an extent. I don't think children under 13 should be allowed to use firearms.

[squeekness]

Have any charges been filed against the dad or the gun owner? ..Or are they just calling this a freak accident?

[Darthphere]

Eh, **** happens.

[Troy_Parker]

i wanna laugh so hard @ this...buh yet i feel sad...

[Scar Predator]

Kids and guns shouldn't mix. Gun shows shouldn't even admit children. A person will have all the time in the world to hunt or shoot targets after they turn 18.

[Majic Walrus]

Originally Posted by VenomXXXXL

Kids and guns shouldn't mix. Gun shows shouldn't even admit children. A person will have all the time in the world to hunt or shoot targets after they turn 18.

By then it's too late. They won't know proper gun safety and they will have no experience handling weapons. They probably won't take the time to learn to use a weapon at that age and they'll end up causing accidents.

Also you have to realize that in rural America hunting with your kids is a pasttime. I know of at least a dozen kids who'd killed a wild animal by the time they were in Junior High School. I'm sure that the time they spent with their families was excellent for bonding. And I'm sure that not every parents is dumb as **** who wants to give their kids freaking uzis.

I say guns for kids are fine as long as the guardians of the kids are using a tad of discretion. .22 pistol for a 12 year old sure... Pellet rifle for a 10 year old why not? Uzi for an 8 year old? No way. Bad decision. If parents or guardians are making a bad choice then they should bear the complete responsibility.

I think the gun owner should be charged with Negligent Manslaughter leading to a child's death.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Majic Walrus

By then it's too late. They won't know proper gun safety and they will have no experience handling weapons. They probably won't take the time to learn to use a weapon at that age and they'll end up causing accidents.

Also you have to realize that in rural America hunting with your kids is a pasttime. I know of at least a dozen kids who'd killed a wild animal by the time they were in Junior High School. I'm sure that the time they spent with their families was excellent for bonding. And I'm sure that not every parents is dumb as **** who wants to give their kids freaking uzis.

I say guns for kids are fine as long as the guardians of the kids are using a tad of discretion. .22 pistol for a 12 year old sure... Pellet rifle for a 10 year old why not? Uzi for an 8 year old? No way. Bad decision. If parents or guardians are making a bad choice then they should bear the complete responsibility.

I think the gun owner should be charged with Negligent Manslaughter leading to a child's death.

Why is it too late then? Start training them in gun safety at 17 in school. Make completion of a course a pre-requisite for gun ownership.
Also, I grew up in the South with most of my friends hunting as early as age 7. That doesn't change my opinion of guns being too dangerous for undeveloped minds and reflexes. Starting at 18 is plenty of time for hunting. It's a pasttime now, not a necessity.

[Majic Walrus]

Originally Posted by VenomXXXXL

Why is it too late then? Start training them in gun safety at 17 in school. Make completion of a course a pre-requisite for gun ownership.
Also, I grew up in the South with most of my friends hunting as early as age 7. That doesn't change my opinion of guns being too dangerous for undeveloped minds and reflexes. Starting at 18 is plenty of time for hunting. It's a pasttime now, not a necessity.

It's too late then because you cannot just expect an 18 year old to be mature enough to handle a potentially deadly device. Also you can't except schools private or otherwise to be responsible for this standardized gun safety course. It's hard enough having driver's education in schools these days, now you want to bring guns into schools in order to teach safety? That will never go over.

If these safety classes aren't taught in schools then that means the government will have to make these courses available, at a cost, a cost which every family might not be able to make.

I understand how guns can be dangerous for undeveloped minds and reflexes however that development isn't an instant process, it takes actual time to develop. Just because hunting is a pasttime and not an necessity doesn't mean that we should be preventing people from enjoying it because of the possible dangers anymore then we should prevent children from playing sports because of the possible dangers. Learning gun safety at a young age can only decrease the number of gun related accidents.

[Dope Nose]

Originally Posted by squeekness

Have any charges been filed against the dad or the gun owner? ..Or are they just calling this a freak accident?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...y_at_gun_show/

DA considers charges in shooting death of boy at gun show
Unclear which laws applicable in Westfield case

By Brian R. Ballou
Globe Staff / October 29, 2008

Two days after an 8-year-old boy fatally shot himself with a machine gun at a weapons exposition in Westfield, the Hampden district attorney launched a criminal investigation yesterday into the incident.

In a press release, District Attorney William M. Bennett said he has found "no lawful authority" or law that would allow an 8-year-old to possess or fire a machine gun.

The investigation is expected to focus on whether any state laws that govern the use of firearms were violated and whether those who allowed the child to handle the fully-loaded automatic 9mm Micro Uzi weapon were "reckless or wanton" in doing so.

The investigation is being conducted by local, state, and federal authorities, including the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Bennett was not available for comment on the investigation, but aides said there was no timeline on its completion.

The accident occurred during a "Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo" at the Westfield Sportsmen's Club.

Christopher Bizilj, a child described as a model third-grader from Ashford, Conn., was shot in the head, apparently when the recoil of the firearm sent it up and backward.

His father, Dr. Charles Bizilj, said he stood 10 feet behind his son as a professional trained in using the weapon stood beside the boy.

"This accident was truly a mystery to me," he told the Globe earlier this week. "This is a horrible event, a horrible travesty, and I really don't know why it happened."

He said his son had fired handguns and rifles for three years. While Sunday was the first time the boy had fired an automatic weapon, the father said he had seen other children fire the weapon at the event.

Even with Bennett's statement that he could find no policy or agency that allows young children to handle such deadly weapons, it remained unclear yesterday what laws exist, state or federal, that specifically prohibit children from using automatic firearms at gun clubs.

Adam Martignetti, a spokesman with State Representative Michael A. Costello, said, "We're trying to figure out what laws are in play and what goes on in private gun clubs, because it's not exactly clear."

Costello, a Newburyport Democrat who co-chairs the House Joint Committee on Public Safety and Homeland Security, said Monday that he plans to draft a bill that would ban anyone younger than age 21 from firing an automatic weapon.

Daniel Vice, senior lawyer with the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based in Washington, D.C., said in a statement yesterday that he believes, "Massachusetts law specifically prohibits furnishing a machine gun to any person under 18. It is unconscionable that the gun fair allowed and encouraged young children to fire machine guns."

State laws on the sale or furnishing of weapons or ammunition to minors allow instructors to furnish rifles, shotguns, or ammunition to students under the age of 18, provided the instructor has the consent of the parent or guardian of that student.

But Vice said Uzis are categorized as machine guns and are therefore in a different class than rifles or shotguns.

Since 1994, the Commonwealth has banned the sale and manufacture of assault weapons such as Uzis, but gun clubs that owned such firearms before the ban came into existence were allowed to keep them for use by members because of a grand- father clause.

John Rosenthal, founder of Newton-based Stop Handgun Violence, said, "this is a gaping hole, and these events by gun shops are a cynical loophole that allows citizens to shoot these weapons even though they can't own them.

"No adult under any circumstance should allow a child to hold, not to mention fire, a fully automatic weapon, period," Rosenthal added.

[squeekness]

I am guessing that some laws will be a changin' after this. Just a shame that it had to happen for the laws to be changed....

[Philly Phanboy]

I hope they go through with the charges. That poor kid died because the adults were morons.

[scifiwolf]

I see a "Christopher's Law" in the near future, regulating the operation of guns by children.

[squeekness]

Originally Posted by Philly Phanboy

I hope they go through with the charges. That poor kid died because the adults were morons.

Well, what would sending the dad to jail do? He's suffered enough already and it was an accident. I am sure he didn't plan to kill his kid that day. But the laws can be changed to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[amazingfantasy15]

Originally Posted by Majic Walrus

By then it's too late. They won't know proper gun safety and they will have no experience handling weapons. They probably won't take the time to learn to use a weapon at that age and they'll end up causing accidents.

Also you have to realize that in rural America hunting with your kids is a pasttime. I know of at least a dozen kids who'd killed a wild animal by the time they were in Junior High School. I'm sure that the time they spent with their families was excellent for bonding. And I'm sure that not every parents is dumb as **** who wants to give their kids freaking uzis.

I say guns for kids are fine as long as the guardians of the kids are using a tad of discretion. .22 pistol for a 12 year old sure... Pellet rifle for a 10 year old why not? Uzi for an 8 year old? No way. Bad decision. If parents or guardians are making a bad choice then they should bear the complete responsibility.

I think the gun owner should be charged with Negligent Manslaughter leading to a child's death.

How is it too late to teach an 18-year old gun safety? I'm 30, so does that mean I can't learn gun safety cause "Pa" didn't take me deer hunting when I was a yougin'? A course on gun safety should definitely be mandatory for anyone planning to own and/or fire a gun.

I can understand going hunting with your dad or something, but I still don't think the father shouldn't let his younger than Jr. High son handle a firearm. Spend the time with him sure, but when the time comes to make the kill, have the father do it, not junior. Better yet, just go fishing with the son, same basic premise just without the deadly weapon.

Kid wants a gun, give him a BB or paintball gun, tell him when he's older and can handle the responsibility of having a real gun, they'll go out and buy one. Kids need parental approval to get a tatoo and can't smoke before 18 (legally at least), have to complete a course to drive, can't drink till 21 why not make it the same to have a gun.

I'm not anti-gun, I'm just anti kids (and morons obviously) with guns.

[Stringer]

Originally Posted by squeekness

Well, what would sending the dad to jail do? He's suffered enough already and it was an accident. I am sure he didn't plan to kill his kid that day. But the laws can be changed to make sure it doesn't happen again.

It would give him a more tangible punishment. He may be over his guilt for his part in the kids death 5 years for all we know.

[Philly Phanboy]

Originally Posted by squeekness

Well, what would sending the dad to jail do? He's suffered enough already and it was an accident. I am sure he didn't plan to kill his kid that day. But the laws can be changed to make sure it doesn't happen again.

It was a fully-loaded automatic weapon they gave to the kid and their negligence led to an unnecessary gun fatality. There has to be some form of accountability.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by Majic Walrus

It's too late then because you cannot just expect an 18 year old to be mature enough to handle a potentially deadly device.

Yet, a twelve year old can handle a potentially deadly device with astounding maturity. Strange.

[Scar Predator]

Originally Posted by Majic Walrus

It's too late then because you cannot just expect an 18 year old to be mature enough to handle a potentially deadly device. Also you can't except schools private or otherwise to be responsible for this standardized gun safety course. It's hard enough having driver's education in schools these days, now you want to bring guns into schools in order to teach safety? That will never go over.

How is it too late then? I see no logic in that argument at all. Moreover, I said nothing about bringing guns into school. I took a gun safety course in jr. high and never once touched a gun. What I'm saying is teach kids the gravity of the gun in school as a pre-requisite to hands-on training. The hands-on training comes at the age of 18 but not on school grounds. We are talking about a device that can end lives. I see no reason at all why the practice of using a firearm of any sort shouldn't require years of extensive training and an age limit.

Originally Posted by amazingfantasy15

Kid wants a gun, give him a BB or paintball gun, tell him when he's older and can handle the responsibility of having a real gun, they'll go out and buy one. Kids need parental approval to get a tatoo and can't smoke before 18 (legally at least), have to complete a course to drive, can't drink till 21 why not make it the same to have a gun.

I'm not anti-gun, I'm just anti kids (and morons obviously) with guns.

Exactly. I have nothing against hunting or owning a gun for self-defense. My only assertion is that shooting should be reserved for adults only.

[Morg]

Originally Posted by November Rain

Accidents happen, if he was besides licensed people and also his father, there isn't any one else you can blame here.

ever fire one of those guns? I have, a kid that young wouldn't be able to control it so the adult was a idiot for letting the kid shoot it

[Silicon Surfer]

My step-father taught me to shoot at the age of 8 and I had free access to guns as a kid. I never had an accident and I have never known anyone else who did either. As a kid more than half of the people that I knew owned guns and most kids had shot guns many times. And as I said there were no accidents. You have to start teaching a kid young in order to shape their attitudes. After the age of 12 or so a persons personality is set for life. Then you cannot alter a kids attitude if it needs it. An older kid or adult can indeed learn the details of safe gun handling but not the fundamental attitude. By then a person either has it or not. Some people will have a safe attitude by having learned it some other way and some will have it by natural inclination. But by then you can't teach it. These adults were idiots, plain and simple. In a world of 6 billion+ people two idiots will come together fairly frequently. In a world with sophisticated electronic communication everyone will learn of just about every single major instance of it.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by Silicon Surfer

My step-father taught me to shoot at the age of 8 and I had free access to guns as a kid. I never had an accident and I have never known anyone else who did either. As a kid more than half of the people that I knew owned guns and most kids had shot guns many times. And as I said there were no accidents. You have to start teaching a kid young in order to shape their attitudes. After the age of 12 or so a persons personality is set for life. Then you cannot alter a kids attitude if it needs it. An older kid or adult can indeed learn the details of safe gun handling but not the fundamental attitude. By then a person either has it or not. Some people will have a safe attitude by having learned it some other way and some will have it by natural inclination. But by then you can't teach it. These adults were idiots, plain and simple. In a world of 6 billion+ people two idiots will come together fairly frequently. In a world with sophisticated electronic communication everyone will learn of just about every single major instance of it.

I first learned how to use a gun at the age of 19, so I am going to have to disagree with you here. Anyone can learn to use a gun at any age, dependent upon their willingness to learn and their ability to concentrate.

If some children or adults aren't able to learn how to operate a gun with a little maturity as they get older... then maybe they shouldn't be in a position to use such a weapon...

[Silicon Surfer]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

I first learned how to use a gun at the age of 19, so I am going to have to disagree with you here. Anyone can learn to use a gun at any age, dependent upon their willingness to learn and their ability to concentrate.

If some children or adults aren't able to learn how to operate a gun with a little maturity as they get older... then maybe they shouldn't be in a position to use such a weapon...

I don't know you so obviously I don't have any idea whether you are safe around a gun or not. Assuming that you are you either learned the relevant attitudes somewhere else and they just happened to apply or it was your natural personality to act safely. You can teach anyone the details but you can't teach them to heed them when they are on their own. They will either follow what they were taught or not. You do not necessarily know whether they will or not let alone have influence over it. To have influence you have to get to a child in their formative years.

[The Senator]

Originally Posted by Silicon Surfer

I don't know you so obviously I don't have any idea whether you are safe around a gun or not. Assuming that you are you either learned the relevant attitudes somewhere else and they just happened to apply or it was your natural personality to act safely. You can teach anyone the details but you can't teach them to heed them when they are on their own. They will either follow what they were taught or not. You do not necessarily know whether they will or not let alone have influence over it. To have influence you have to get to a child in their formative years.

I took a hunter safety course as a part of my training in an ecological program I was involved in and was passed by an NRA certified instructor, if that counts. Plus, I haven't blown my head off with an automatic weapon yet... so I'm pretty sure that means I'm doing something right.

But seriously... no, I don't think age has anything to do with whether someone is better with a gun or not. It has everything to do with one's ability to learn and pay attention to detail while abiding by all safety rules. There are many children who SHOULDN'T be around guns at the age of eight, just as there are many adults who shouldn't be around guns at the age of eighty.

[Silicon Surfer]

Originally Posted by jmanspice

I took a hunter safety course as a part of my training in an ecological program I was involved in and was passed by an NRA certified instructor, if that counts. Plus, I haven't blown my head off with an automatic weapon yet... so I'm pretty sure that means I'm doing something right.

But seriously... no, I don't think age has anything to do with whether someone is better with a gun or not. It has everything to do with one's ability to learn and pay attention to detail while abiding by all safety rules. There are many children who SHOULDN'T be around guns at the age of eight, just as there are many adults who shouldn't be around guns at the age of eighty.

I have to agree with you on this. I would not have touched an Uzi at the age of 8 if they had been around. Obviously there are at least two adults in the world who aren't that sensible.

[Majic Walrus]

Originally Posted by amazingfantasy15

How is it too late to teach an 18-year old gun safety? I'm 30, so does that mean I can't learn gun safety cause "Pa" didn't take me deer hunting when I was a yougin'? A course on gun safety should definitely be mandatory for anyone planning to own and/or fire a gun.

No of course not. It does mean that at the age of 30 you are less likely to learn gun safety. Same reason at the age of 30 you're less likely to graduate High School.

I can understand going hunting with your dad or something, but I still don't think the father shouldn't let his younger than Jr. High son handle a firearm. Spend the time with him sure, but when the time comes to make the kill, have the father do it, not junior. Better yet, just go fishing with the son, same basic premise just without the deadly weapon.

For that matter why not play baseball? Or watch TV? It's the hunting itself that is the pasttime there are many very valid pasttimes but you can't just replace a pasttime with a completely different one and it have the same affect nor would you have the same affinity for it.

Also I'm not in total disagreement with you, no one should be giving his elementary aged kid a freaking uzi. But that doesn't mean that I want to arbitrarily pass out punishments to the rest of the country because one guy was a douche.

Kid wants a gun, give him a BB or paintball gun, tell him when he's older and can handle the responsibility of having a real gun, they'll go out and buy one. Kids need parental approval to get a tatoo and can't smoke before 18 (legally at least), have to complete a course to drive, can't drink till 21 why not make it the same to have a gun.

I'm not anti-gun, I'm just anti kids (and morons obviously) with guns.

Why do you think it's the governments job to determine when someone is responsible to carry a gun?

Originally Posted by jmanspice

Yet, a twelve year old can handle a potentially deadly device with astounding maturity. Strange.

If said twelve year old has been taught how to handle the potentially deadly device, then yeah he can do better than an 18 year old who hasn't been taught.

Originally Posted by VenomXXXXL

How is it too late then? I see no logic in that argument at all. Moreover, I said nothing about bringing guns into school. I took a gun safety course in jr. high and never once touched a gun.

I believe that course is most likely inadequate. No offense or anything, but how comfortable did you feel with a gun safety course that didn't use any guns?

What I'm saying is teach kids the gravity of the gun in school as a pre-requisite to hands-on training. The hands-on training comes at the age of 18 but not on school grounds. We are talking about a device that can end lives. I see no reason at all why the practice of using a firearm of any sort shouldn't require years of extensive training and an age limit.

Exactly. I have nothing against hunting or owning a gun for self-defense. My only assertion is that shooting should be reserved for adults only.

I certainly understand the reasons why you would want regulations like this to be in place. However I fail to see how an isolated incident would cause you to want to prohibit the usage of weapons for minors. Why would I want my son (hypothetical son) to have to stop hunting with me every winter because some dumbass gave his kid a fuxking Uzi?

You all seem to be forgetting that this was a man giving an 8 year old an UZI. Not a rifle, not even a pistol really, but a freaking sub-machine gun. This is not the norm, nor should rules be implimented because of this one occurance.