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Old 01-06-2009, 08:31 PM   #51
CFlash
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
Aha

Bay didn't write Transformers the movie, nor did he write any of his films
ppl need to start realizing this... especially the people that critique his story elements and lack of thought provoking scripts...
But he picks the scripts he directs. Which I guess says a lot.

Yes, Michael Bay is good at what he does. The Backstreet Boys and NSync were also... and they were loved by millions. They pandered to millions. There's a difference between them and The Beatles or the Rolling Stones, etc. Likewise Bay panders... and directs big, long (and very fun... if you turn your brain off), music videos.

I'm not trying to insult anybody that likes Bay. I liked M.C. Hammer once upon a time too. There's no shame in it. lol.


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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

no one says the same thing about the Farley Bros and their comedies(i assume it's them that made something about mary and etc), but when it comes to this man that has made about 6 huge summer action movies and succeeded )and not failed at something like Benjamin Button or American beauty).., he gets called a failure...tsk tsk
A lot of music lovers dislike mindless bubblegum pop music too. I think Bay is the cinema equivalent.


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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
apart from the island, just about all of bay's movies have been more successful then say Superman returns...which failed at being a relevant, engaging superman film...
Transformers on the on the other hand...

lets just say my 10 year old brother loved the show, and he really loved the bay movie.

my 30year old aunt finds the show childish and pointless...and guess what?
she feels the about the movie.
But do you think your 10 year old brother will regard the movie the way people regard Aliens, Terminator.... The Matrix.... etc when he grows up? Or will it be more like Iron Eagle? A fun movie that came out, people liked, but was soon forgotten?

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

success is defined by what you are trying to do...

I would have loved for it to be Terminator 2, but it didn't need to be.
(terminator 3 did tho)
Now THIS I COMPLETELY agree with. (tho, I think T3 is a tad underrated... it was a good sci-fi movie... just a bit underwhelming). I thought Transformers could have been Terminator level in the hands of the right director.

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
on a side note

it would be so effin easy to finally stick it to all his naysayers by just "picking" a strong substance driven script(and if he can't i'm sure he has people around him who can...me for one) and just do what most these overrated minimalist filmmakers do and put the camera down on the tripod in front of the table and let the strong actors read the script...
I love that people think he can't do that...yet praise singer for it time and time again...then when it came time for singer to apply some sort of visual direction to a film(u know step out from behind a good story and actually earn his keep as a director, visual translator to the audience) he just delivered the same tired old singeresque experience minus the good script...Superman returns 30years too late..
Superman Returns was beautiful to watch. And, all in all, it was very very well directed. But it was seriously miscast and the script needed serious work.

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one day soon bay will stop wanting to make oodles of money, he won't care about being a cultural icon in the action genre(for better or worse), and he'll make a "good" movie
one day soon, just to prove he can.

peace.
It would be nice to see that. He's definately got talent. I'd like to see him prove that he's not as shallow his movies make him seem.

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Old 01-06-2009, 11:06 PM   #52
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

This past New Years Eve, I was home and I decided to watch both Transformers and Iron Man. And watching them back-to-back, I realized just how much I prefer IM over TF for just being a better overall film and as well as adaption.

Now, I'm not beating up on TF because I still enjoy it and think that it did capture the essence of what the franchise on a whole is about. But a lot its flaws have become more prevalent for me in my recent viewings of it. Mainly the topic of this thread, the story.

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Old 01-06-2009, 11:47 PM   #53
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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But he picks the scripts he directs. Which I guess says a lot.
yes and no, it says alot about his ability to pick scripts that contribute to his goals.

for example, he can pick a script that will entertain an audience(in his hands that is) and will make it's money back

one can't honestly believe he thought Bad boys was going to win awards, Armageddon is repeatedly stated to be a fun big movie that any hick can jump on and have fun with...

why turn the fun machine that was armageddon into 2001 a space odyssey?
so it will have no turnaround?
until someone shows me a script that is gold on paper that bay turns into crap, the hack argument is moot..

honestly in his position
i would make some of the same choices

David Gordon Green did with his lastest movie...

I want money, i go the atm, bay wants money he makes a money making movie..
at some point he'll want acclaim, and he'll pick a good script..(like ie the Wrestler script)

Quote:
Yes, Michael Bay is good at what he does. The Backstreet Boys and NSync were also... and they were loved by millions. They pandered to millions. There's a difference between them and The Beatles or the Rolling Stones, etc. Likewise Bay panders... and directs big, long (and very fun... if you turn your brain off), music videos.

I'm not trying to insult anybody that likes Bay. I liked M.C. Hammer once upon a time too. There's no shame in it. lol.
well unlike the many failed boy bands out there, at least BSB and Nsync were successful, that's why when he's called a "hack" it not accurate, is Justin timberlake a hack?
note Ratner and Wisemen
or even Boll

I honestly would have loved to see Ratner's Transformers(same script), I'm sure the sequel would be as eagerly anticipated as bays next film..

it's simple, if your going to make a comedy, it should be successful, if your going to make a fun summer movie, it should be successful...

bay is doing that right now, and again, he's only made like 6 films
how many has Spielberg made?
when bay makes that amount of movies and there not all intended summer releases, then i'll love to really sit down and discuss his ability

till then, his 6 fun movies are more fun them most ppls 6 fun movies(pearl harbour being the worst script ever, but honestly looked the way superman should have)

Quote:
A lot of music lovers dislike mindless bubblegum pop music too. I think Bay is the cinema equivalent.
Truthfully speaking, when compared to Victorian opera or Mozart and Betovhen...the Beatles and Rolling stones are no better than blink 182

BUT

you still like these bands (i'm assuming)
and that's cause instead of being pretentious and composing symphonies for an audience that couldn't care less (would rather be entertained than know they're listening to fine art) they, one: know who they are
and two: they know who their audience is.


Quote:
But do you think your 10 year old brother will regard the movie the way people regard Aliens, Terminator.... The Matrix.... etc when he grows up? Or will it be more like Iron Eagle? A fun movie that came out, people liked, but was soon forgotten?
He won't need to, when he grows up, he'll have aliens and terminator to meet his now mature needs...
the true audience that the material and filmmakers need to respect is the original age group
they really shouldn't concern themselves with the over sized pasty bearded folk, wearing their shirts from when they were ten, petitioning from their parents basement about why the material "all of a sudden" is childish and not as james cameronesqe as they remember

it was a show for kids, of course the movie is going to be "for kids"

if anything that's the true example of respecting the material/audience

the way fans talk today is comparable to 17 year old girls wanting the barbie movie(bratz) to be the sex and the city

unlike say batman(which does appeal to children), Transformers was made to sell toys to kids..

I really only realized this after watching the original movie(my gosh)
cause beastwars was for the teens.

and honestly, apart from a few summer hollywood dumb phrases coming from an autobot here and there, they were just as noble and "intelligent" as they were in G1
for anyone to tell me Bay's optimus isn't saying the same things and thinking the same way as his G1 counterpart, needs to....check again.


Quote:
Now THIS I COMPLETELY agree with. (tho, I think T3 is a tad underrated... it was a good sci-fi movie... just a bit underwhelming). I thought Transformers could have been Terminator level in the hands of the right director.
no it couldn't have
one because, only cameron can make a terminator level movie(in said genre)
and two:
because directors (unless your cameron) traditionally aren't responsible for the story(and i've noticed it's mostly story problems with bay films)

if anything it would have been the same pointless movie and direction wise it would have been underwhelming

visually the movie radiates and that's thanks to bay, period
story wise it's childish and that's thanks to a lot of people(yes bay being one of them, i'll admit)

Quote:
Superman Returns was beautiful to watch. And, all in all, it was very very well directed. But it was seriously miscast and the script needed serious work.
yes better script and cast for sure
but visually it was one of the most forgettable films i've ever seen

singer is one of those guys that hides behind a good story and this time there was nothing to hide behind.

ignoring usual suspects(too easy)
X2 was mostly entertaining due to what the plot was giving us...ie wolverine killing a mansion full of people...cool on paper..

I used to rag on nolan but i think he really stepped with DK(it was like a fincher movie) and if Singer did DK, it would have LOOKED a step above tim story's work.

Quote:
It would be nice to see that. He's definately got talent. I'd like to see him prove that he's not as shallow his movies make him seem.
it won't last, but for now it's working, and if it ain't broke...

beside Spielberg called him the best shooter in the biz
and he and Cameron are good friends and admittedly the same kind of director

all he needs is the right script to apply himself

sorta like how rourke applied his usual self to his new movie and it worked out.

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Old 01-06-2009, 11:48 PM   #54
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris B View Post
This past New Years Eve, I was home and I decided to watch both Transformers and Iron Man. And watching them back-to-back, I realized just how much I prefer IM over TF for just being a better overall film and as well as adaption.

Now, I'm not beating up on TF because I still enjoy it and think that it did capture the essence of what the franchise on a whole is about. But a lot its flaws have become more prevalent for me in my recent viewings of it. Mainly the topic of this thread, the story.
if he and favareu switched scripts, the truth would set us all free

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:07 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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Originally Posted by Chris B View Post
This past New Years Eve, I was home and I decided to watch both Transformers and Iron Man. And watching them back-to-back, I realized just how much I prefer IM over TF for just being a better overall film and as well as adaption.

Now, I'm not beating up on TF because I still enjoy it and think that it did capture the essence of what the franchise on a whole is about. But a lot its flaws have become more prevalent for me in my recent viewings of it. Mainly the topic of this thread, the story.


It's pretty much the script.

Sure, Bay's at fault when it comes to "goofs", such as Sam having his jacket on, and then off, and then on again. And then Sam talking to his parents with no box, and then he has a box under his arm. And then when they go to Hoover Dam and it says NEVADA TIME, and then TIME, and then NEVADA TIME again...but, c'mon, Spider-Man had many goofs like that as well, and that is only nitpicking.

But the script is absolutely fine, imo. It's straight to the point, and it didn't leave me any questions.

Plus, I might be the only one who likes Bay's "lighting" with his movies. It makes it more intense, imo. And even he's not the only one who does that.

But, yet again, people bash Bay and no other director, just because Bay does what he wants.

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Old 01-07-2009, 09:45 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

It's the way he shoots and edits that makes his films more prone to these blunders, he cuts from scene to scene so fast is it any wonder how someone can keep up with positions. You can take the good with the bad when it comes to his movies, unfortunately there is more bad with good

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Old 01-08-2009, 09:51 AM   #57
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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It's the way he shoots and edits that makes his films more prone to these blunders, he cuts from scene to scene so fast is it any wonder how someone can keep up with positions. You can take the good with the bad when it comes to his movies, unfortunately there is more bad with good
Exactly.

When you look at the most effective action scenes in Transformers, they are almost all scenes where the action is slowed down so you can actually see clearly what the hell is happening. That's another one of the problems with the new Transformer designs. The fact that they all look so similar, coupled with Bay's hyperkinetic editing, actually lessens the impact of certain fight scenes because it's hard to tell what's going on or what movements the robots are going through.

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Old 01-08-2009, 01:21 PM   #58
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

The coherency of his editing is very subjective

the lizard says that the most effective scenes in TF were when bay slew down
well
that's still bay
the fact that you can point out scenes that were effective means "bays" editing works

at the same time there are people out there that claim not to have been able to see anything, and i believe them...

it's like this;
I call it the horror movie audience syndrome;
when a director wants to scare you in a horror movie they will keep things from their audience, they will keep visual cues out of the shot, in order to place their audience in the mental state they want them to be in.

for example in films like the ring or scream, they you'll see people die and not see who killed them, you'll see people walk down hall ways with the camera's vision focused in directions that will keep said audience in the dark as to what is really "behind them" or whats going on. This is done in order to give the audience the experience and not just tell the story.

that's the difference between alot of directors, some just tell stories and some visually take you through the story.

some film foot ball scenes from out and about so as to let the audience see everything they want to(like it's seen on tsn or something) and some put you in the action a stong example being
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
, will your granpa find that commercial confusing and disorientating? no doubt. Could it be clearer? sure, "pull the camera out" and "stop shaking it." sure there are cons to that approach, but look at the pros...
it's a wonderfully immersive, kick ass experience...or at least, it tries to be, but at least the attempt was made...

What's the point in tracking though the hands and feet along the lines of scremich(sp) as a key point in the story occurs, the ball i hiked...it just adds pointless fancy new age movement to something that could be conveyed all the more clearer with a traditional approach..

now, when it comes to battles, the same thing applies, and i seem to remember a celebrated little war movie that came a few years ago that was said to really "put you in the action" the "experience was unforgettable" and said director moved and entertained us.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


funny enough everyone looks the same!
and everyone has the same colours on!
the camera shakes like mad
the editing has more cuts the that emo girl with the long sleeves
and so on and so fourth, do these qualms sound familiar?
they should, they're the problems people have with Bays transformers.

there is no one who can sit here and not tell the world how to clear things up in SPR, how to make it more visually coherent
but no one ever said or says anything about the visually kinetic battle scenes in saving private ryan other than Awesome.

cause even a 7 year old could tell you Spielberg did it to place you in the action, to have you feel as if you are storming the beach as one of those men...and most significant to this argument...
to convey the true disorientation of a battle whilst still communicating the important stuff.

Now, after watching that.
this, with it's 10 or so characters, with bright colours that DONT blend into the background like camo gear in the woods...
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


seems all the more clear

so we all wanted to see what happened with Bumblebee and Barricade, but don't let what you wanted from the bottom of your heart interfere with critical thinking/analysis, that early in the movie, bay wanted us to rely on our imagination more(note later optimus holds bonecrushers head to the camera and cuts it off just for those fans that might not see it the first time...as the story progresses things get more clear..

moreover anyone ever notice how just about all the TF battles or scenes that have humans around are just about never shot from above, but rather always low angle?
is this cause bay love cool low angle music videos?
or could it serve a greater purpose?

a purpose that would be so evident if it was a kubrick film...

the truth is, if you do find yourself lost, it's great, because it means you are immersed, a lot of the camera work is rack focusing and hand held shots and human pov's just help to remind you that giant robots are fighting 10 feet from you and yes, the ground is going to shake and you're only going to see parts of them from behind your car door.
(the use of dark foreground elements is the work of an artist imo it add so much depth to the composition...ahem singer)

but bay just sucks and along with all his other failures in the art of film, even his claim at fame, shooting action; sucks...

stay away from Batman Begins cause the action in that is bay inspired 30 cuts a minute lol(and it's all in the dark...)
is it possible that nolan was trying to serve a purpose?
or should he have shot every scene in the day time for those who want to see everything in every way...

lastly, this scene has the exact same editing as Transformers, and yes the fact that it's in a straight line helps but ask yourself, how confused are you, and why?
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


peace

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Last edited by Marvin; 01-08-2009 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:45 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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It's pretty much the script.

Sure, Bay's at fault when it comes to "goofs", such as Sam having his jacket on, and then off, and then on again. And then Sam talking to his parents with no box, and then he has a box under his arm. And then when they go to Hoover Dam and it says NEVADA TIME, and then TIME, and then NEVADA TIME again...but, c'mon, Spider-Man had many goofs like that as well, and that is only nitpicking.

But the script is absolutely fine, imo. It's straight to the point, and it didn't leave me any questions.

Plus, I might be the only one who likes Bay's "lighting" with his movies. It makes it more intense, imo. And even he's not the only one who does that.

But, yet again, people bash Bay and no other director, just because Bay does what he wants.
I don't really agree with that. They crammed in to many human storylines. Obviously you needed Sam's story, but the hacker storyline wasn't needed, and the military storyline should've been trimmed down a bit.

I didn't really have a problem with them thinking that the human characters needed to be used as a bridge into the TF's world because I can understand that line of reasoning. But all they really needed was Sam's story and a smaller military story and it would've been fine. And by that same token they would've allowed for more TF development.

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Old 01-08-2009, 03:39 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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I don't really agree with that. They crammed in to many human storylines. Obviously you needed Sam's story, but the hacker storyline wasn't needed, and the military storyline should've been trimmed down a bit.

I didn't really have a problem with them thinking that the human characters needed to be used as a bridge into the TF's world because I can understand that line of reasoning. But all they really needed was Sam's story and a smaller military story and it would've been fine. And by that same token they would've allowed for more TF development.
ok for example if there was no hacker stolyline no military...then what? more sam? ok of you are for more sam.

i have rather 100% finished ILM transformers then more FOX ''lets make cheap'' CGI transforers.

if this new movie that has 200 milions will nto have more robots screentime and less humans i will agree with everyone here. but in the first movie that was basicly a test?

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Old 01-08-2009, 03:40 PM   #61
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
The coherency of his editing is very subjective

the lizard says that the most effective scenes in TF were when bay slew down
well
that's still bay
the fact that you can point out scenes that were effective means "bays" editing works

at the same time there are people out there that claim not to have been able to see anything, and i believe them...

it's like this;
I call it the horror movie audience syndrome;
when a director wants to scare you in a horror movie they will keep things from their audience, they will keep visual cues out of the shot, in order to place their audience in the mental state they want them to be in.

for example in films like the ring or scream, they you'll see people die and not see who killed them, you'll see people walk down hall ways with the camera's vision focused in directions that will keep said audience in the dark as to what is really "behind them" or whats going on. This is done in order to give the audience the experience and not just tell the story.

that's the difference between alot of directors, some just tell stories and some visually take you through the story.

some film foot ball scenes from out and about so as to let the audience see everything they want to(like it's seen on tsn or something) and some put you in the action a stong example being
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
, will your granpa find that commercial confusing and disorientating? no doubt. Could it be clearer? sure, "pull the camera out" and "stop shaking it." sure there are cons to that approach, but look at the pros...
it's a wonderfully immersive, kick ass experience...or at least, it tries to be, but at least the attempt was made...

What's the point in tracking though the hands and feet along the lines of scremich(sp) as a key point in the story occurs, the ball i hiked...it just adds pointless fancy new age movement to something that could be conveyed all the more clearer with a traditional approach..

now, when it comes to battles, the same thing applies, and i seem to remember a celebrated little war movie that came a few years ago that was said to really "put you in the action" the "experience was unforgettable" and said director moved and entertained us.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


funny enough everyone looks the same!
and everyone has the same colours on!
the camera shakes like mad
the editing has more cuts the that emo girl with the long sleeves
and so on and so fourth, do these qualms sound familiar?
they should, they're the problems people have with Bays transformers.

there is no one who can sit here and not tell the world how to clear things up in SPR, how to make it more visually coherent
but no one ever said or says anything about the visually kinetic battle scenes in saving private ryan other than Awesome.

cause even a 7 year old could tell you Spielberg did it to place you in the action, to have you feel as if you are storming the beach as one of those men...and most significant to this argument...
to convey the true disorientation of a battle whilst still communicating the important stuff.

Now, after watching that.
this, with it's 10 or so characters, with bright colours that DONT blend into the background like camo gear in the woods...
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


seems all the more clear

so we all wanted to see what happened with Bumblebee and Barricade, but don't let what you wanted from the bottom of your heart interfere with critical thinking/analysis, that early in the movie, bay wanted us to rely on our imagination more(note later optimus holds bonecrushers head to the camera and cuts it off just for those fans that might not see it the first time...as the story progresses things get more clear..

moreover anyone ever notice how just about all the TF battles or scenes that have humans around are just about never shot from above, but rather always low angle?
is this cause bay love cool low angle music videos?
or could it serve a greater purpose?

a purpose that would be so evident if it was a kubrick film...

the truth is, if you do find yourself lost, it's great, because it means you are immersed, a lot of the camera work is rack focusing and hand held shots and human pov's just help to remind you that giant robots are fighting 10 feet from you and yes, the ground is going to shake and you're only going to see parts of them from behind your car door.
(the use of dark foreground elements is the work of an artist imo it add so much depth to the composition...ahem singer)

but bay just sucks and along with all his other failures in the art of film, even his claim at fame, shooting action; sucks...

stay away from Batman Begins cause the action in that is bay inspired 30 cuts a minute lol(and it's all in the dark...)
is it possible that nolan was trying to serve a purpose?
or should he have shot every scene in the day time for those who want to see everything in every way...

lastly, this scene has the exact same editing as Transformers, and yes the fact that it's in a straight line helps but ask yourself, how confused are you, and why?
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


peace

holy crap man....i couldn't read all of your novel..but i have never seen anyone go to such lengths to prove a point. Video game editing and so on and so forth (are u serious??)...and what's in bold i actually think it's a bunch of b.s. There was a lot of issues with tranformers..Michael Bay was not the right person for this job....i don't really care if i was a mindless cartoon....a better effort could of been had for everyone to enjoy...bottom line....i also expect the same for TF2 which will be very dissappointing...

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Old 01-08-2009, 03:50 PM   #62
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_b View Post
ok for example if there was no hacker stolyline no military...then what? more sam? ok of you are for more sam.

i have rather 100% finished ILM transformers then more FOX ''lets make cheap'' CGI transforers.

if this new movie that has 200 milions will nto have more robots screentime and less humans i will agree with everyone here. but in the first movie that was basicly a test?

I have to agree with chris b....just cuz you take our hacker story line, or military story lines also with the budget they had..doesn't mean you still couldn't produce a better TF movie...i mean come on, we are in 2009 (back then 08) after everything we all have witnessed on film since we were all old enough to make sense of movies...they could of made TF work with with they had..i mean James Cameron made Terminator 1 and 2 work and when were those movies made??

coming up with reasons...well i should say...trying to come up with excuses to why TF was so lackluster or was made the way it was..whether budget or some other reason, i just can't buy...the whole team is suppose to be talented..that's what they got paid for...sit down and make it work..

like i said before..it shouldn't have been to hard; They have way to much of a foundation from the cartoon to comic books to work with..

for instances..if you're talking about cuz of the budget being the reason they couldn't get more robots then cut the movie short then..the producers already said the one thing they regret was the length of the first movie..


Last edited by CEREBRAL....; 01-08-2009 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:25 PM   #63
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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holy crap man....i couldn't read all of your novel..but i have never seen anyone go to such lengths to prove a point. Video game editing and so on and so forth (are u serious??)...and what's in bold i actually think it's a bunch of b.s. There was a lot of issues with tranformers..Michael Bay was not the right person for this job....i don't really care if i was a mindless cartoon....a better effort could of been had for everyone to enjoy...bottom line....i also expect the same for TF2 which will be very dissappointing...
it's the spacing actually

but if long rhetoric/content/reference filled post are anything new to message boards(especially on the hype) you probably don't visit the comic book section all the often

some posters have points and ideas and rhetoric that they waste their time on such boards sharing with people that really couldn't care less, but they feel they have to get it off of their chests

other posters like to pop up here and there and contribute statements that they hope can stand on the short legs the poster has provided.

other posters just can't get off of the bandwagon they have been lured onto so they just present a "short concise" argument and usually no one retorts...why would they, it's bandwagon...

(lastly there are trolls, which are self explanatory)

I won't defend my habit of posting full, long arguments with reference to boot
(it makes this waste of time fun and worth it.)
plus it gives the guests a reason to come back.


BS you say?
well i guess i can't argue with that.

then again

like i said, the first time we see robot on robot action or rather alien
the bulk of the confrontation is off camera, why?
because it's early on and past examples of story telling pertaining to extra terrestrial or mutant has proven that it is better to build up the audience curiosity until either the final reveal or when the time is right...

Look at(pointless reference);

The Ring(note at the end we see the ghost in her full glory, every time before that, especially the first time its cut away or off camera)

Pitch Black
Predator
Jurassic Park(raptor attack at the very start)

best handled in Ridley Scott's Aliens

and for an example from something with a similar audience, TMNT.

of course it's perfectly plausible that bay is just a nincompoop

but then again, why is it that is the scene that is edited in that manner?
the fact that we don't see what puts barricade down but later we see each decepticon and even jazz go down in pretty much slow motion?

perhaps it's "BS"
or maybe there is a method to the bay madness.


Every Movie could be better no doubt, but why this movie is outed for not being as good as it could have been is hypocrisy through and through.
For with that Rhetoric so few movies a are actually good

Iron man could have been way better even TDK

I'm not going to go there though

I actually think the movie was very good and i give almost all credit to the director this time

for like everyone has been saying for the past few months, the story was absolute tripe
yet, here were are and it's one of the 3 most anticipated films of the year

"A film is a collaboration, but it is the director's energy and vision that brings the elements of script, performance and production into a satisfying totality."
DGA

if the directors don't write the story but rather present the material to us

Bay is a miracle worker
and he does it on time and always under budget.


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Old 01-08-2009, 05:34 PM   #64
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Damn.

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Old 01-09-2009, 09:31 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

Well, Marvin, like I said in the opening post in this thread, I did overall enjoy the scenes with the robot battles taking place, despite my personal opinions about Bay's directorial and editing styles. I stand by my observation that there were certain action scenes that would have been more effective if the editing were less chaotic and ADD-friendly, but as I initially said, the action scenes are really the only parts of the first film that I can go back and watch now without mocking the film openly.

When it comes to the robot action in TF2, Bay will be Bay, and I can deal with that as long as he pulls off a few beautifully effective action scenes on par with the best of the first movie (eg: Blackout's initial attack on the Qatar base, the military airstrike against Scorpinok, Ironhide's blast-and-flip maneuver in the city, Bonecrusher skating up the highway). I just want to see more robot action than I saw in the first movie.

BUT -- as far as the script, characterization and dialog goes, I would really, really, REALLY like a vast improvement over the first movie. There was just so much that was totally lame and fell flat whenever the humans were talking (eg: dorky racial sterotypes, Sam's typically annoying clueless parents, the total lack of any real chemistry between Sam and Mikhaela, the stupid chihuahua wee-wee jokes for the kids, the totally insufferable and unfunny Agent Simmons, etc, etc).

That was my original point. I'm hoping for (but not really expecting) better writing in TF2 so that the non-robot parts of the movie are a little easier to stomach this time around.

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Old 01-09-2009, 11:15 AM   #66
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
it's the spacing actually


I won't defend my habit of posting full, long arguments with reference to boot
(it makes this waste of time fun and worth it.)
plus it gives the guests a reason to come back.


BS you say?
well i guess i can't argue with that.

then again

like i said, the first time we see robot on robot action or rather alien
the bulk of the confrontation is off camera, why?
because it's early on and past examples of story telling pertaining to extra terrestrial or mutant has proven that it is better to build up the audience curiosity until either the final reveal or when the time is right...


The Ring
Pitch Black
Predator
Jurassic Park(raptor attack at the very start)


for like everyone has been saying for the past few months, the story was absolute tripe
yet, here were are and it's one of the 3 most anticipated films of the year

"A film is a collaboration, but it is the director's energy and vision that brings the elements of script, performance and production into a satisfying totality."
DGA

if the directors don't write the story but rather present the material to us

Bay is a miracle worker
and he does it on time and always under budget.

ha ha again with the novels..sorry i couldn't read all that, but i just saved what i think i could debate with you about.

first...for movies like the ring, pitch black, Predator..etc it's ok for the "villain or main creature" to be introduced to the audience later on in the film. Cuz no one knows what it/they is or what it/they look like..so the "classic" unveiling of what "they" look like it at the end makes sense...but for BAY to take this approach with part 1..really aint a big deal but when u overall look at it...why do that??..The audience knows who they are, and from the origin of the TF's they are introduced pretty earlier in the story....i can see "the fallen" in this nex coming film being introduced later on..but for Megs (for instance) to come in at that classic villain end...ahhh not impressed and seemed lazy approach to the story or film...

and plz dont be like everyone else with the whole "well if it was so bad why did it do good numbers" arguement..cuz logically speaking theres more to a movie then the numbers it does or any of the hype it generates...it's a hyped movie...most people whether they liked it or not..are given them a chance to improve on what some feel they messed up on....and if it's basically the same as the first movie...then i'm sure if they do decide to make another one, the hype for tht movie won't be so much.....

i mean action movies/summer blockbusters are always talked about cuz that's what we all crave, but that by no means makes them a good movies...

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Old 01-09-2009, 11:43 AM   #67
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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Well, Marvin, like I said in the opening post in this thread, I did overall enjoy the scenes with the robot battles taking place, despite my personal opinions about Bay's directorial and editing styles. I stand by my observation that there were certain action scenes that would have been more effective if the editing were less chaotic and ADD-friendly, but as I initially said, the action scenes are really the only parts of the first film that I can go back and watch now without mocking the film openly.

When it comes to the robot action in TF2, Bay will be Bay, and I can deal with that as long as he pulls off a few beautifully effective action scenes on par with the best of the first movie (eg: Blackout's initial attack on the Qatar base, the military airstrike against Scorpinok, Ironhide's blast-and-flip maneuver in the city, Bonecrusher skating up the highway). I just want to see more robot action than I saw in the first movie.

BUT -- as far as the script, characterization and dialog goes, I would really, really, REALLY like a vast improvement over the first movie. There was just so much that was totally lame and fell flat whenever the humans were talking (eg: dorky racial sterotypes, Sam's typically annoying clueless parents, the total lack of any real chemistry between Sam and Mikhaela, the stupid chihuahua wee-wee jokes for the kids, the totally insufferable and unfunny Agent Simmons, etc, etc).

That was my original point. I'm hoping for (but not really expecting) better writing in TF2 so that the non-robot parts of the movie are a little easier to stomach this time around.
i see your point
i still have to contend that

no one raises any issues with films like saving private ryan which are about 4x more chaotic and "shaky + fast editing,"

side by side TF is about 4x more clear and the characters look different from eacher other and the area

to me that reads as "I just want to see with perfect clarity because honestly i'm interested" and you know what, I can understand everyone perfectly, it's very interesting stuff with beut cgi and i wanna see it too

...but if the director is interested with immersing us in a mega war on earth from the human perspective that's his commitment to his art...maybe next time he'll just have as watch from the sidelines like we're at some baseball game...

moreover it's from the human perspective(optimus vs bone crusher.."cool mom" mag vs optimus- car windows and lamp posts in most shots, bumblebee vs barricade - harsh low angles on account of sam being there....Iron hide jumping over the blue dress lady)

it's less like say spiderman who's living his life and more like Jurassic Park where it's not from the T-rex's pov but from ours. For all it's faults the one thing TF has really done is leave it's audience in awe, if you watch it with a kid, they're just so mystified...imo it's the best decision bay made...because the material was initially for them...we say it was for us but we were kids when we like it...teens, like bay said himself were interested in other things and other films

and now we teens demand the material be for us?

your right tho, alot of things could be better story wise but anyone who brings up T2 needs to stop being selfish and think of the younger kids, whom we all owe many thanks for making this film possible.

and it all honesty, my theater was laughing and cheering all the way...

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Old 01-09-2009, 11:53 AM   #68
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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I just recently sat down and watched Transformers again -- albeit this time with the Rifftrax audio commentary by the Mystery Science Theater 3000 guys, which is totally hilarious if you haven't heard it, BTW.
Holy piss. I must own this.

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Old 01-09-2009, 11:58 AM   #69
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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ha ha again with the novels..sorry i couldn't read all that, but i just saved what i think i could debate with you about.
that saves time

Quote:
first...for movies like the ring, pitch black, Predator..etc it's ok for the "villain or main creature" to be introduced to the audience later on in the film. Cuz no one knows what it/they is or what it/they look like..so the "classic" unveiling of what "they" look like it at the end makes sense...but for BAY to take this approach with part 1..really aint a big deal but when u overall look at it...why do that??..The audience knows who they are, and from the origin of the TF's they are introduced pretty earlier in the story....i can see "the fallen" in this nex coming film being introduced later on..but for Megs (for instance) to come in at that classic villain end...ahhh not impressed and seemed lazy approach to the story or film...
and the first ninja turtles movie?
and Jurassic Park?

sure we all knew what turtules and dinos looked like going into the movie, especially with the way the trailers were presented, but
with any re-imagining for the screen, your audience is 100% in the dark and trust me when i say, blackout in the dessert and BB transforming for the first time was simply new for everyone and their mothers...

story telling is story telling and building up and holding back are classic tools that should never not be capitalized on.

Quote:
and plz dont be like everyone else with the whole "well if it was so bad why did it do good numbers" arguement..cuz logically speaking theres more to a movie then the numbers it does or any of the hype it generates...it's a hyped movie...most people whether they liked it or not..are given them a chance to improve on what some feel they messed up on....and if it's basically the same as the first movie...then i'm sure if they do decide to make another one, the hype for tht movie won't be so much.....

i mean action movies/summer blockbusters are always talked about cuz that's what we all crave, but that by no means makes them a good movies...
I didn't mean to go there, but my point wasn't so much if it was such a bad movie why did people go..

my point is
we all know how bad the script was due to the story, we've all seen pretty cgi not save movies in the past(eragon and avp and hulk, etc

we've all seen movies that have popular material not draw in the crowds it's supposed to(based on hype)

will all that going against it, the DIRECTOR (with his approach) made gold out of it, so much gold that it's the event this year

you notice the next superman won't really be the event when it comes out?

what about that garbage that came out last time was good enough to make it the event(when i say event i just mean as hotly as anticipated as this)

it's not like brad pit or (rumored) will smith is in a captain america costume
it's not like it's a cameron film
and its not like transformers the material is that much of a draw to the mainstream
...it's not like it's heath ledger's last performance
and it's the fist time ILM has done work on a film
it's not like mickey rouke whose going to win best lead this year for playing himself is has just been cast as the antagonist....
it's not like lucus, ford and spielbeg have reteamed after 20 years or what not
it's not like it's a live action tokien book

the story was weak and yet the film somehow did this(previous success and current buzz)

that's BAY(he's the buzz maker for better or worse)
the man deserves credit
(more then other directors that either have good stories to film, or rely on the above things to draw an audience)

....maybe it's shia

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Old 01-09-2009, 12:14 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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that saves time



and the first ninja turtles movie?
and Jurassic Park?

sure we all knew what turtules and dinos looked like going into the movie, especially with the way the trailers were presented, but
with any re-imagining for the screen, your audience is 100% in the dark and trust me when i say, blackout in the dessert and BB transforming for the first time was simply new for everyone and their mothers...

story telling is story telling and building up and holding back are classic tools that should never not be capitalized on.
^^sorry this is way to much anazlying.....those movies were directed fine...like i said for the origin of the tf movie...no tf needed to be introduced late...bring in the deceps and megs in better then you did...


Quote:
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will all that going against it, the DIRECTOR (with his approach) made gold out of it, so much gold that it's the event this year

you notice the next superman won't really be the event when it comes out?

what about that garbage that came out last time was good enough to make it the event(when i say event i just mean as hotly as anticipated as this)

it's not like brad pit or (rumored) will smith is in a captain america costume
it's not like it's a cameron film
and its not like transformers the material is that much of a draw to the mainstream
...it's not like it's heath ledger's last performance
and it's the fist time ILM has done work on a film

the story was weak and yet the film somehow did this

that's BAY
the man deserves credit
(more then other directors that either have good stories to film, or rely on the above things to draw an audience)
^^^
sorry you are given Bay to much credit and i can't convince u otherwise and that's fine..no disrepect it's your opinion but superman has not been hyped anymore cuz the last few films sucked....TF there hasn't been one, and honestly i dont see TF being anymore hyped then any other superhero movie..they are all the same..they all create a buzz hence this site and the fact that hollywood wants more and more of them..

I sure i can find a lesser director then Bay and they would of done a better job...flat out his verison of TF sucked..any director doing this film would of had the same success....

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Old 01-09-2009, 12:34 PM   #71
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

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^^sorry this is way to much anazlying.....those movies were directed fine...like i said for the origin of the tf movie...no tf needed to be introduced late...bring in the deceps and megs in better then you did...

i was actually referring to the bumblebee fight
meg coming in late is another story


^^^
sorry you are given Bay to much credit and i can't convince u otherwise and that's fine..no disrepect it's your opinion but superman has not been hyped anymore cuz the last few films sucked....TF there hasn't been one, and honestly i dont see TF being anymore hyped then any other superhero movie..they are all the same..they all create a buzz hence this site and the fact that hollywood wants more and more of them..

superman was in the same boat as batman..um except batman being more recent and sucking more, nolan revamped bats to moderate success and the TDK was hotly anticipated, singer "revamped" superman to less then moderate success and the next one isn't anticipated at all

that being said if bay did such a bad job with his TF movie, then this new one should be in the same boat as superman was...
last film sucked and the director has an up hill battle to climb...
doesn't look that way


I sure i can find a lesser director then Bay and they would of done a better job...flat out his verison of TF sucked..any director doing this film would of had the same success....
respectfully I have to disagree with you last part
his energy and vision gave this property a very strong momentum that most others wouldn't be able too

there's ppl out there that believe a director swap equates to a story swap, and that just isn't true.
most other directors limited with this script would have made a movie as lame as TF was written to be
Len wisemen being the prime example

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Old 01-09-2009, 01:12 PM   #72
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respectfully I have to disagree with you last part
his energy and vision gave this property a very strong momentum that most others wouldn't be able too

there's ppl out there that believe a director swap equates to a story swap, and that just isn't true.
most other directors limited with this script would have made a movie as lame as TF was written to be
Len wisemen being the prime example
IF your talking about the BB fighting scene..then i'll have to agree with others and say it was shotty camera work..could not see what was going on.....all of the TF's fighting was basically the same

wow..like i said your a fan of Bay's work..i really dont see how BAY gave any life to this movie( or TF's in general)..sorry..like i said a lesser name director would of gotten the same results (as far as popularity goes) and probably done a better job..most people view Bay's work the same..i guess there are other's such as yourself that see me as actually being good!! ok...no disrespect..maybe TF2 would be better....maybe..

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Old 01-09-2009, 02:28 PM   #73
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IF your talking about the BB fighting scene..then i'll have to agree with others and say it was shotty camera work..could not see what was going on.....all of the TF's fighting was basically the same
what's shotty about it
i mean ignoring the two possible functions i pointed out...whats so shotty?
the lack of a tripod?

Quote:
wow..like i said your a fan of Bay's work..i really dont see how BAY gave any life to this movie( or TF's in general)..sorry..like i said a lesser name director would of gotten the same results (as far as popularity goes) and probably done a better job..most people view Bay's work the same..i guess there are other's such as yourself that see me as actually being good!! ok...no disrespect..maybe TF2 would be better....maybe..
I'm a fan of alot of work
especially work that is visually praised by talented people and garners accliam

as far as popularity, bay also made the property notorious...in only a way he can..contempt from fans and general bay haters

it's not just good visual interpretation, it's powerful, visually it's a step or two under terry malick when it comes to raw photography(many would argue that it's the bay photography that let ILM stand out as much as they did this time)

content of story is another relm

but you wanna hate, i'll not stand in your way
no disrespect

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Old 01-09-2009, 04:40 PM   #74
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Default Re: Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

Damn.

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Old 01-09-2009, 05:28 PM   #75
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You can't be serious

Sure, Bay has made some films that look pretty to the eye (until you get motion sickness), however they all lack depth. Usually the plot is paper thin, and the characters are two dimensional. Heck, he prides himself on teh explosions The reason he gets hate here from some posters is because when we, the old school fans, found out Bay was behind this film we instantly knew he would butcher what we loved about Transformers, we predicted what would happen and we were right, we got a crazy kid running around for a whole movie, a bunch of useless government babble, and an army recruiting advert. Oh yeah and a light sprinkling of robots. They should have called the movie The Humans featuring Transformers. Plus after all that Bay in his condisending way takes a stab at the fans like we are morons. Transformers isn't just about robots smashing the **** out of each other, they all had unique personalities, flaws, and dilemmas what we could relate to, it showed that we were not so different to them. People cried when Optimus Prime died in the animated movie, I can't see people crying if/when Bay decides to kill off Optimus Flame. The only positive that came from the Bay movie was brought on by the fans, and that was the decision of having Peter Cullen reprise his roll of Optimus, ugh imagine if we got someone else. My only hope for TF2 is that Orci, Kurtzman and Kruger give us more depth this time around, they are getting better at writing stories but their character development in screen plays needs much work.

I just can't do it anymore :facepalm
I hate to say it, but maybe its time for you 'old school fans' to step aside for a new generation of fans. Because no director on this planet would have been able to adapt years of transformers episodes into one 2 hour film that is watchable. The way I see it is that the film was a commercial success and has created a lot of fans amongst the ordinary film-goers who make up the bulk of Hollywood income along with the 'old school fans' who can handle change and redesigns to their beloved childhood franchise.

It's pointless to complain about the script for the first film. Let it go. Just sit back and enjoy the films, which let us not forget, was originally based on a toyline(!) or don't watch it and stick to the old animated series. Because clearly the new film has its own established fan base that actually likes Bay's interpretation of the franchise. Anyway cheer up, for those complaining about too much human storylines, Bay has already said that the second film will contain a lot more action.

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