Is it pointless to hope for a better script than the first movie?

[CEREBRAL....]

Originally Posted by Marvin

what's shotty about it
i mean ignoring the two possible functions i pointed out...whats so shotty?
the lack of a tripod?

geez i'm starting to get a headache..as it's been said on many occasion...u couldn't see the robots fighting..i had no idea what robot was doing what..me and countless others have stated that , cuz you and a handful of folks think differently that's your view doesnt mean mine is wrong...i dont know what camera he used or didnt use (nor care)..the fact you could barely see what any of the robots were doing told me that's bad camera work..it's my opinion what my eyes told me..

Originally Posted by Marvin

I'm a fan of alot of work
especially work that is visually praised by talented people and garners accliam

as far as popularity, bay also made the property notorious...in only a way he can..contempt from fans and general bay haters

it's not just good visual interpretation, it's powerful, visually it's a step or two under terry malick when it comes to raw photography(many would argue that it's the bay photography that let ILM stand out as much as they did this time)

content of story is another relm

but you wanna hate, i'll not stand in your way
no disrespect

honestly this is where i just stop the debate...why can i not like the film or the directors work?? I have my reasons, for someone to come call it hating is friggin retarded...plz i'm tired of that being excuse coming from others with a difference in opinion..how old are we now..geez i dont like TF part one..M.Bay did a horrible job that's my opinion..so now i'm a hater....wtf

u liked it, good..hooray for you!!

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by Marvin

For all it's faults the one thing TF has really done is leave it's audience in awe, if you watch it with a kid, they're just so mystified...imo it's the best decision bay made...because the material was initially for them...we say it was for us but we were kids when we like it...teens, like bay said himself were interested in other things and other films

and now we teens demand the material be for us?

your right tho, alot of things could be better story wise but anyone who brings up T2 needs to stop being selfish and think of the younger kids, whom we all owe many thanks for making this film possible.

Wait -- if the TF movies are for the "younger kids", then why the masturbation gags, leering shots of Megan Fox and the "Private Ryan" type camera effects you mentioned (which, BTW were much more calculated in "Ryan" and less spastic than what we saw in the TF movie).

Obviously what Bay is trying to do is to appeal to as wide a mass audience as possible. Understandable, since that's what brings in the boxoffice money. BUT - when you bog down a cool robot sci-fi battle movie with infantile bathroom humor, silly African-American sterotypes and throw-away dialog that falls flat, you're going to alienate the people who really like sci-fi movies in an attempt to play to the crowd that loves "Meet the Spartans" and "National Treasure 2".

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by CEREBRAL....

geez i'm starting to get a headacheI figured you'd be the first to admit it..as it's been said on many occasion...u couldn't see the robots fighting..i had no idea what robot was doing what..me and countless others have stated that , cuz you and a handful of folks think differently that's your view doesnt mean mine is wrong...i dont know what camera he used or didnt use (nor care)..the fact you could barely see what any of the robots were doing told me that's bad camera work..it's my opinion what my eyes told me..

I respect an opinion, I just hate when an opinion is biased,

yours and many others seem to apply said opinion(camera work) only here, bays work on a film they hastily predicted they would hate the minute they heard bay was signed on and long before they saw any footage.

like i pointed out before(in one of the posts you stated too long to bother reading)

Many films including the acclaimed and loved (by many a poster in and around these very boards) by people everywhere Saving Private Ryan(it is also very reminiscent to jim cameron's aliens) have this type of work and imo an even harsher approach to it with people that all look alike be they "good guys" or "bad"
and never is the term

"Shotty" applied to the camera work

pardon me if i wonder if any bias is present
visavi I ask you personally

what exactly is shotty about it?

myself being very close to people in the industry and take a personal interest in the matter or camera

shotty work at a feature level is very rare, not everything is wonderful but everything is intended, so what you see as bad(ie blair witch is actually a decisive decision)

if you ever get a chance to look at dailies you'll see focusing problems, cropping boom operators and cables, over exposures....etc

this film if anything has aggresive camera work, on the dvd there is behind the scenes where we see various advance methods of capturing the kinetics bay is so known for...

michael man loves doing his hand held doc work with it's rack focusing and odd framing in his features now...
i dare you to find anyone who calls that shotty...course not..but michael man, and not michael bay is an award winning photographer
(

honestly this is where i just stop the debate...why can i not like the film or the directors work?? I have my reasons, for someone to come call it hating is friggin retarded...plz i'm tired of that being excuse coming from others with a difference in opinion..how old are we now..geez i dont like TF part one..M.Bay did a horrible job that's my opinion..so now i'm a hater....wtf

u liked it, good..hooray for you!!

Honestly this is where i start the debate

you and everyone else can love or hate anything you want

I decide to step in when you(people) **** on other people's work, call it your opinion or whatever you want

you don't like the film
half the people here don't like it
90% of of the people on the Ain't cool site or rather message board hate it

but they never say that
they say it's bad, and that's bull ****

if you look into Kubrick's history in the industry you'll see this **** on almost each and every release; Everyone and their mother hate the product, critics call all his films crap and contrived messes that are at times boring...about a decade later his work is just about the most acclaimed there is..

my point, you may or may not like it but don't call some you don't like bad.
that's what all those people clearly did.

(before people say i'm calling bay kubrick, i'm not)

I'm not saying your(or the world) is going to be calling TF a gem in 10 years, but i am saying people these days obviously aren't as critically objective as they should be...everything is opinion presented as law.

you keep saying this debate isn't going anywhere cause i'm not going to convince u to like it and ur not going to convince me to hate it...
boards don't work that way

it's rhetoric i'm into, why do u say it's bad?
well guess what?
your wrong.(as far as camera work...etc)

in my opinion bay almost always shots films devoid of compelling story or consist of characters that can give an actor an oscar
I'm an art student(check the sig)

I watch the trailer for pearl harbor every know and then and i SEE a photographer telling a visual story about america in a times of war
I see a the painter in Ridley scott when i watch his epic films

when these guys do genre films, they visually knock it out of the park and not everyone likes it fine

but "fans" come on places like here and call it shotty and that kinda sucks if you know what i mean.

geez i dont like TF part one..M.Bay did a horrible job that's my opinion

you and everyone (including myself) should apply this with each "review" and maybe less feet will end up in peoples mouths.

[Marvin]

Zack Snyder(sp)
the 300 guy

has a very unique camera(as far as how it moves)

constant truck ins and outs
with constant over cranking and under
(zooming in and slow motion)

it's new age and it's hip, and old folks people like sidney pollock and woody allen i could easily see calling it new age and amateurish

but do these new age films have an audience?

that's honestly what i see happen to bay every time out, he has an audience and he knows exactly who they are, yet the non audience what him to make movies their way

pass.

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Wait -- if the TF movies are for the "younger kids", then why the masturbation gags, leering shots of Megan Fox and the "Private Ryan" type camera effects you mentioned (which, BTW were much more calculated in "Ryan" and less spastic than what we saw in the TF movie).

Obviously what Bay is trying to do is to appeal to as wide a mass audience as possible. Understandable, since that's what brings in the boxoffice money. BUT - when you bog down a cool robot sci-fi battle movie with infantile bathroom humor, silly African-American sterotypes and throw-away dialog that falls flat, you're going to alienate the people who really like sci-fi movies in an attempt to play to the crowd that loves "Meet the Spartans" and "National Treasure 2".

you answered your own question

you can't please everyone

(unless your Jimmy Cameron)

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by Marvin

you answered your own question

you can't please everyone

True....I would just like to see a little more effort put into pleasing those who made Iron Man a success, and a little less effort put into pleasing those who made Shrek 3 a success.

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

True....I would just like to see a little more effort put into pleasing those who made Iron Man a success, and a little less effort put into pleasing those who made Shrek 3 a success.

In it's early and purest form, Iron man is about a demon in a bottle drunk with the power of a one man army living in a capitalist world...that makes its money off of weapons of war that other countries pay for with their lives...and so on and so fourth...
it was a well staged visual narrative comic book for teens to adults.
Am i surprised that the film is very mature and for the same people...not really
actually i think it could have been way more mature, but every now and then in summer film u need a man flying into a wall at 60mph and surviving...

Transformers was initially made to sell toys to children...yes a narrative was applied but even then it wasn't about socialism and substance abuse like ironman

If we tried really hard(to justify watching a kids show) we can find little things here and there about natural resources and respect for life...

am i surprised that the new TF film is pretty much for kids?
no, i'm actually pleased...anything more would be a disrespect to the "original" material....why alienate the youngsters that give the property it's legs in the first place

funny enough, with new film, if we even care to look as hard for substance as we did in the original cartoon, well find themes of respect for sentient life, and even contemporary foreign policy among others...
but i guess an audience has to like a film before they try to defend it.


and unlike Ironman with it's Adult Angst...TF has Teen Angst

face it, hollywood would be hard pressed to have a film about anything that isnt' anchored by human protagonists..Narnia..
Titanic isn't about a love story, it's about a boat sinking and the social injustice that incured...
Bay did the same with pearl harbour except the love story was contrived and predictably boring...

Nolan, Raimi, Favareau had the advantage to be able to please both hollywood and fans by making their human led properties about...well humans

Bay made a movie about robots and he fit humans in it..or rather a movie about humans and he fit robots in...
another failed attempt at pleasing everyone i guess.

[mclay18]

Of course not.

You have the same director and two of the same writers behind the sequel (plus Ehren Kruger, who should've known better).

With Michael Bay, good scripts are pretty much moot. It's a proven track record after all.

[CEREBRAL....]

Originally Posted by Marvin

I respect an opinion, I just hate when an opinion is biased,

yours and many others seem to apply said opinion(camera work) only here, bays work on a film they hastily predicted they would hate the minute they heard bay was signed on and long before they saw any footage.

like i pointed out before(in one of the posts you stated too long to bother reading)

Many films including the acclaimed and loved (by many a poster in and around these very boards) by people everywhere Saving Private Ryan(it is also very reminiscent to jim cameron's aliens) have this type of work and imo an even harsher approach to it with people that all look alike be they "good guys" or "bad"
and never is the term

"Shotty" applied to the camera work

pardon me if i wonder if any bias is present

man, and not michael bay is an award winning photographer
.

DO ME A FAVOR...(I swear you are these most aggravating person i have ever come across....i really didnt think that was possible).....i'm not your test subject...dont set here and over analyze or try to hypotheses what my opinion is or how i should approach my opinion (who the hell are you???)...you've taken this debate way past just one's opinion and turn it into some moronic lab report..

it's pretty simple...i dont like the first movie nor the directors vision of the move, i gave me reasons, you looooove m.bay gave your reasons..u are never gonna convince me other was and i'm sure the hell not trying to convince you..so plz with your novels, i have way to much going on to sit thru any of it..u need to get out more or write a book....and PLZ STOP USING MY POST TO TYPE YOUR OWN WORDS IN BOLD IN THEM...sorry but i think you're crzy seek help......

that's just my opinon but i'm sure you will refute that as well..i'm done replying to you now....as u were...

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by CEREBRAL....

DO ME A FAVOR...(I swear you are these most aggravating person i have ever come across....i really didnt think that was possible).....

yes I like the movie and i objectively defend it against hypocritical "opinions", i can see how that would be annoying

i'm not your test subject...dont set here and over analyze or try to hypotheses what my opinion is or how i should approach my opinion (who the hell are you???)

I'm just curious if your opinion is your own is all
(whenever i ask, you give a regurgitation of the same old popular statements floating around here, you even bring up that it's popular)

who am i?
I'm Marvin

...you've taken this debate way past just one's opinion and turn it into some moronic lab report..

...right
just like your analysis of TF you've managed to twist and blow out of proportion what something is and what you tell yourself(and everyone) it is.

it's pretty simple...i dont like the first movie nor the directors vision of the move

Bingo
Your right it is that simple, and i really hope you and everyone else keep it that simple
I feel the same way about lots of movies, but i never ever call them bad or some of the crap i hear about bays work

i gave me reasons, you looooove m.bay gave your reasons..

I respect and have the ability to see past popular opionion...again more blowing out of proportion...(that's the way it works with bay antagonists)

whats stopping me from saying you haaate bay and all your reasons are tainted by that?
moral high ground my friend

u are never gonna convince me other was and i'm sure the hell not trying to convince you..so plz with your novels, i have way to much going on to sit thru any of it..u need to get out more or write a book....

I'm not trying to convice you to like the movie, i just hope you to
1. use the word opinion more
2. realize that you can call something crap and bad all day long but once in a while someone like myself will come along, provide evidence to the contrary, and then ask you to elaborate...

I get out plenty

and PLZ STOP USING MY POST TO TYPE YOUR OWN WORDS IN BOLD IN THEM...sorry but i think you're crzy seek help......

the bold is an old habit and i really should stop
as far as your personal attack...
looks like i win the moral high ground as well...
-me, a bay "supporter" who have thunk.

but if you insist on the childlike behavior;
I'm rubber your glue, what ever you say bounces off of me...and get get this, it sticks onto you.

that's just my opinon but i'm sure you will refute that as well..i'm done replying to you now....as u were...

Your opinion is your own and ur entitled to it, I will not try to convince your or anyone to like the movie...I will simply

I will simply refute your "facts"

I don't like the fantastic four movie, I used to call it ****
i sat with my family and they really enjoyed it
at that point I stopped calling it bad, and started calling it a movie I don't like

peace.

[LightningFlash]

Don't you think that's enough?

[CEREBRAL....]

i rest my case....

[S.A.A.D.]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

I just recently sat down and watched Transformers again -- albeit this time with the Rifftrax audio commentary by the Mystery Science Theater 3000 guys, which is totally hilarious if you haven't heard it, BTW.

Anyway, although I was entertained by the action and FX in the movie theater, I have come to realize that any scene in the movie that doesn't have actual robot battles in it is totally unwatchable. The acting, script and delivery are just that bad.

So... has there been any indication at all that we could possibly get a better script and a less lamebrained storyline in TF2, or is everyone just automatically assuming it will be more of the same? I'll take any kind of improvement at all, whether is be different writers, actors or whatever.

1) How? Explain. I see no constructive criticism regarding those things.

2) Geez,get a grip man,you sound like you saw some of Transformers:Revenge Of The Fallen already.

[Octoberist]

the first movie was fun, but a little...sloppy.

There were little things that I didn't like: the scenes at Sam house (with the Autobots) was played out too long; the way Jazz's death was handled; the disappearance of Barricade; the name mix up of Brawl, and so forth.

[Marvin]

Originally Posted by LightningFlash

Don't you think that's enough?

depends, if he has anymore wonderful rhetoric about why bay and TF sucks to share with the world

Originally Posted by CEREBRAL....

i rest my case....

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

lol it's all good

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by Chris B

I don't really agree with that. They crammed in to many human storylines. Obviously you needed Sam's story, but the hacker storyline wasn't needed, and the military storyline should've been trimmed down a bit.

I didn't really have a problem with them thinking that the human characters needed to be used as a bridge into the TF's world because I can understand that line of reasoning. But all they really needed was Sam's story and a smaller military story and it would've been fine. And by that same token they would've allowed for more TF development.

I agree with this, taking the hacker storyline out and trimming the military story would have allowed more development of the Transformers themselves. We onyl really got to know Optimus Prime and Bumblebee. The Decepticons especially needed more development, which I hope they get in this movie.

[Octoberist]

that's true; the hacker story was okay but overexposed; the military subplot..man I didn't care about any of them. However, I can see why they were important since it would make sense for the military to work along side with the Autobots in Transformers 2.

[CEREBRAL....]

Originally Posted by Marvin

depends, if he has anymore wonderful rhetoric about why bay and TF sucks to share with the world

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

lol it's all good

again i ask who do you think you are? Cause so far i dont know anyone who has come out and said you were right about anything other then yourself...so again U ARE WHO NOW????

[LightningFlash]

Originally Posted by Marvin

depends, if he has anymore wonderful rhetoric about why bay and TF sucks to share with the world

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

lol it's all good

Bay and Transformers do not suck.

Moving on.



So, the SCRIPT, huh?

Think we'll be getting a voiceover of Optimus when the movie begins?

[Marvin]

probably
I THINK peter cullen has a strong narrators voice

I also doubt sams parents will play a big role second time out
unless his dad is going to by him car insurance or something

[LightningFlash]

Well Cullen was supposed to record some lines in August before he and everyone else records their lines in November, so I hope we get another epic intro.

Sam's parents are supposed to know about the Transformers, so who knows; maybe they will play at least some parts in the beginning before the characters go to Egypt.

[Marvin]

looks like the script calls for battles in the (ghobi?) Egyptian dessert, which should please people that were irked by the "messy" battles in the pointless city

I'm personally looking forward to seeing a 30 foot robot perched atop a pyramid

[LightningFlash]

Or a Transformer breaking through a pyramid.

[The Lizard]

Originally Posted by S.A.A.D

1) How? Explain. I see no constructive criticism regarding those things.

Try reading my other posts in this very thread, and the "how" and "explain" of what I found lacking in the script of the first TF movie should be crystal clear. I've given plenty of examples, do I have to actually quote back the exact dialog of the weak parts to get the point across?

2) Geez,get a grip man,you sound like you saw some of Transformers:Revenge Of The Fallen already.

Hmmm...wasn't aware that I was coming across in an hysterical, illogical or unbalanced way to require "getting a grip". Just making simple observation and hoping for improvements is all.


Is it just me, or are the defenders of this movie seeming a little desperate and overly defensive?

[S.A.A.D.]

Originally Posted by The Lizard

Try reading my other posts in this very thread, and the "how" and "explain" of what I found lacking in the script of the first TF movie should be crystal clear. I've given plenty of examples, do I have to actually quote back the exact dialog of the weak parts to get the point across?



Hmmm...wasn't aware that I was coming across in an hysterical, illogical or unbalanced way to require "getting a grip". Just making simple observation and hoping for improvements is all.


Is it just me, or are the defenders of this movie seeming a little desperate and overly defensive?

Dude,you're the one who put a freaking sad face near the name of this thread that you concocted. I just think you're blowing the situation out of proportion. I couldn't be bothered to skim through each post to find examples from you about why you think the direction was so bad for Transformers. Here's an idea for you,concentrate on let's say the good thing's this movie has going for it. You're not letting yourself see past the cons,from one Transformers fan to another,I think you owe it to yourself to do what is necessary.