New Interview - Steve Wacker:

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by Styleshift

Amen. TMOB keeps it pretty real though.

I try... I don't mind having differing opinions, but when people make unsupported claims to things that ARE supported...

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

As mentioned many times here after Sins Past, when Skin Deep began, the jokes on this site alone was that he was merely Molten Man 2, so while his powers may be on a different scale, maybe there was some similarities between the two that Harry was able to tweak his experiments on Charlie to make them work on Mark...

while similiar origins, MM's powers have evolved and no longer mirror his origin. Also Charlie made his suit cutting corners and such, to retcon it to having to do with harry makes the original issues completely different. Was stark even involved anymore? Also MM body is no longer encased in metal so why would incasing charlie in a different metal with different properties in order to find out how to take it off work for MM at all?

[Themanofbat]

Think of Charlie as an early version of MM, and when you experiment on him, you can evolve the serum to a hypothetical later stage... I'm sure Oscorp had plenty of MM data/dna to work with...

[moraldeficiency]

Ok, in theory I see where you're going; however, MM was based on an alien metal which fused into his dna altering him, charlie had an earth based metal suit. Now I agree it isn't the biggest problem in the world and minor by ASM standards, but the question is: why retcon more just for the sake of nothing? And I can't see a good answer. The story could have worked without charlie as the first PromX experiment and kept the charlie origin pretty much the same (with only the factor that tony had figured out pete's identity and began a file on him being thrown into question). Instead Skin Deep is retconned to having harry in there. Was stark involved anymore? Also if harry was involved why did charlie cut so many corners and take so many risks which lead to his accident? Doesn't really make sense. I liked charlie's origin and the ties to pete, but now those stories are changed and I don't see why that was needed. (the only reasonable answer I can give is perhaps harry outright lied and charlie was never involved with him in any form... actually that's not too bad if that's what really happened but I doubt it since slott hasn't had a problem retconning the hell out of brock)

[Themanofbat]

I think that because both people had metal type of skin forged onto them, that basically Harry worked on Charlie in order to help Mark... judging by all the foreigners in Harry's lab, I doubt he just used Charlie... he might not have used Charlie at all... it still doesn't really change Skin Deep all too much (other than we don't know (at the moment) what Tony's recollections are of Charlie approaching him and using Peter as a reference)...

I think you're thinking it too much... the basic ASM reading public all called Charlie MM2 and bashed JMS for his lack of originality (this coming right after Sins Past, so who could blame'em), and I think the ASM writers used Charlie with the idea as his reader perception of being MM2 (not necessarily to retcon to that story) as a point that Skin Deep did indeed happen, as all of JMS' stories did up until the end of BnB

[moraldeficiency]

I was just a simple reader then, not a poster, but while similiar I didn't see them as copies of each other. One had alien metal completely intergrated in his dna the other wore a metal suit.

Now reader perception is one thing but what actually happened on the page is generally what I go by combined by my own humble perspectives and insights. Charlie was different in many fundamental ways from MM. Charlie hated the suit, MM loved it and embraced it. Charlie was a scientist that cut corners, MM was a scientist that tried to steal from Smythe. I just don't know why they had to put charlie's story with this, it has no relevence and downs another story without cause. Considering the immense problems already in the braintrust's lap, why go looking for more? And the inclusion of harry and his purpose goes against the reasoning for charlie's accident and motivations. Just throwing in references doesn't show continuity if the references force a retcon to the original story.

[moraldeficiency]

Dp.

[Venom 1988]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

bit of a problem with the last issue, the main point being:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=19527

The other big revelation in “Mind of Fire” concerned Promethan X-90, something Harry was shown to be trying out on human test subjects in the recent “New Ways to Die” arc. At the end of “Mind on Fire,” Harry revealed that X-90 was actually a serum he was working on to cure Mark Raxton of his deteriorating condition. He also told Peter the only human test subject was Charlie Wiederman, the second Molten Man, who volunteered. However, the flood of Chinese illegal immigrants that escaped Harry's labs in “New Ways to Die” seemed to suggest that Harry was being less than truthful about his test subjects.

“Harry only tested it on Charlie Wiederman, but you did see all those test subjects in 'New Ways to Die?' And they're all going to show up for the Anti-Venom story in 'Amazing Spider-Man: Extra’ #2,” Slott teased.

^now we're retconning things not even affected by OMD (but not the first time, see the venom symbiote now as something that gives cancer rather than prevents it).

How is that retconning. If anything its Harry being a douche and lying about whats going on.

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by imdaly

I have: When I was new to reading Spider-Man comics!

The difference being you can choose to do a little reasearch if you want and find out about the characters.

Also, the stuff actually happened in the comic books. So while you might not have read those issues, they did indeed exist. This is not true with BND, because the "missing" parts have not actually been written, and thus history doesn't feel complete.

For example, reading Maximum Carnage, you might not have heard of, or read about Venom before....but Spidey's reaction to working with him made Venom seem like a really big deal. Spidey's reaction to Venom gives you, the reader an impact because (despite the fact you haven't read Venom before) you do know that there exists a written history with him and spidey.
You can find out about it if and when you choose.

I know I've used the "It's like going into a new sit com" example, but even that's not accurate, because you can read or rewatch old episodes to catch up.

[JayTee]

I think when fanboys get to the point where enjoying a fun comic book story takes a back seat to the over-analytical nitty gritty of continuity, it can be classified as a mental disease.

The same kind of mental disease that makes one actually look back and appreciate The Amazing JMS-Man. "None of the concepts, themes, or tone belonged anywhere NEAR Spider-Man but, duuuhr, it was IN CONTI-NOO-I-TEE so I like it!"

Harry's alive, it makes sense, Molten-Men were cured and the other test subjects haven't been fully addressed yet. The end.

[kguillou]

Dude, you have the right to your opinion but what the heck are you talking about? JMS was far from perfect but his portrayal of Peter Parker was impeccable. He wrote peter waaay better than anybody in the braintrust is right now and he actually had the balls to PROGRESS Peter Parker and not regress him. I really dont understand when people bash JMS, his first few arcs on spiderman are some of the best spiderman i've ever read. No, he's not excused for The Other and Sins Past and omitting Pete's supporting cast, but the stuff he did write was gold. I'd much rather be reading about that peter parker than the manchild we have now.

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Venom 1988

How is that retconning. If anything its Harry being a douche and lying about whats going on.

Original story involved tony accepting the project because he knew Pete was spider-man, charlie working out of a post military contract for a supersoldier project then charlie rushing the project to get results because he over extended himself and wackiness ensuing.

New story has harry financing the project (is tony involved anymore? why would harry need tony at all?) as something to reverse MM's condition (even though they only paralleled powers in a circumspect way), has no actual need for charlie to rush the result or become desperate about funding and resources and doesn't make sense unless you change the original issues to make it work.

That's pretty much what a retcon is, you change history to accomodate the present (see any of DC's crisises [except identity crisis] or BND for more on retcons).


To jaytee: yeah I agree, questioning things and expecting good thoughtout stories is asking too much. You must be really sad to see bush go.

[Styleshift]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

I try... I don't mind having differing opinions, but when people make unsupported claims to things that ARE supported...

And posters like you are one of the reasons I still come on here sometimes.
I love seeing varying opinions. I love to question things and I love to think.

"Your kinda like hey...but this is what THEY said. They work with this character everyday. They wanted longevity. They've worked with Spidey for years and they feel as if this is the best move. Sure it sucked but I like these stories. I haven't enjoyed Spidey this much in years."

That's fact supported by your opinion of it.

You don't force your opinion into fact. lol
I've seen you defend it, but never tell people what to think.
and I really appreciate that.

Great view from the pro-side...

[Venom 1988]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

Original story involved tony accepting the project because he knew Pete was spider-man, charlie working out of a post military contract for a supersoldier project then charlie rushing the project to get results because he over extended himself and wackiness ensuing.

New story has harry financing the project (is tony involved anymore? why would harry need tony at all?) as something to reverse MM's condition (even though they only paralleled powers in a circumspect way), has no actual need for charlie to rush the result or become desperate about funding and resources and doesn't make sense unless you change the original issues to make it work.

That's pretty much what a retcon is, you change history to accomodate the present (see any of DC's crisises [except identity crisis] or BND for more on retcons).


To jaytee: yeah I agree, questioning things and expecting good thoughtout stories is asking too much. You must be really sad to see bush go.

My bad I thought you were talking about the whole thing with the oriental people in NWTD

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

Original story involved tony accepting the project because he knew Pete was spider-man, charlie working out of a post military contract for a supersoldier project then charlie rushing the project to get results because he over extended himself and wackiness ensuing.

New story has harry financing the project (is tony involved anymore? why would harry need tony at all?) as something to reverse MM's condition (even though they only paralleled powers in a circumspect way), has no actual need for charlie to rush the result or become desperate about funding and resources and doesn't make sense unless you change the original issues to make it work.

That's pretty much what a retcon is, you change history to accomodate the present (see any of DC's crisises [except identity crisis] or BND for more on retcons).

I didn't get that at all...

In my opinion, Tony gave Charlie the grant (because he knew Peter was Spidey at the time, but his "new" memory will probably be because he simply knew "Pete" who was working at Stark Enterprises (as revealed in Invincible Iron Man #7)), then Skin Deep goes on as we read it, and somehow (probably though Oscorp manipulations), Oscorp gets ahold of Charlie to work experiments on him under the guise to cure him (or for any reason for that matter... we already saw how Oscorp manipulated the scene to get ahold of freak), and with Charlie at hand, Harry was able to experiment with him... remember, not is all that it seems with Harry at this point...

But that's what I got from that scene in ASM #582...

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by Styleshift

And posters like you are one of the reasons I still come on here sometimes.
I love seeing varying opinions. I love to question things and I love to think.

"Your kinda like hey...but this is what THEY said. They work with this character everyday. They wanted longevity. They've worked with Spidey for years and they feel as if this is the best move. Sure it sucked but I like these stories. I haven't enjoyed Spidey this much in years."

That's fact supported by your opinion of it.

You don't force your opinion into fact. lol
I've seen you defend it, but never tell people what to think.
and I really appreciate that.

Great view from the pro-side...

Thank you...

[ben_reilly_s_s]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

I didn't get that at all...

In my opinion, Tony gave Charlie the grant (because he knew Peter was Spidey at the time, but his "new" memory will probably be because he simply knew "Pete" who was working at Stark Enterprises (as revealed in Invincible Iron Man #7)), then Skin Deep goes on as we read it, and somehow (probably though Oscorp manipulations), Oscorp gets ahold of Charlie to work experiments on him under the guise to cure him (or for any reason for that matter... we already saw how Oscorp manipulated the scene to get ahold of freak), and with Charlie at hand, Harry was able to experiment with him... remember, not is all that it seems with Harry at this point...

But that's what I got from that scene in ASM #582...

Ok, so what's so special about Pete that he and his friend/co-worker deserves the grant?

[Jack O Lantern]

The fact that Peter is a genious. We're talking about a guy who impressed Reed Richards with his smarts.

[Themanofbat]

Exactly... given a recommendation rom Reed, Tony would look highly upon Peter...

At least, that could be what their memories are...

[Jack O Lantern]

Or of course Spidey asked Tony to help out his "buddy" Peter. But geez that would be downright logical wouldn't it.

[shinlyle]

Man...if only there wasn't a mindwipe in the middle of all of these stories, this would all make totally logical sense, huh?

Don't worry, they'll get around to explaining things in ASM#700, coming in 2013!! Just be patient!

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Jack O Lantern

Or of course Spidey asked Tony to help out his "buddy" Peter. But geez that would be downright logical wouldn't it.

well in the original story charlie used pete's name and rep without permission or knowledge so that kinda contridicts your downright logical retcon.

[Jack O Lantern]

Originally Posted by moraldeficiency

well in the original story charlie used pete's name and rep without permission or knowledge so that kinda contridicts your downright logical retcon.

He uses Peter's name because he is aware that Peter and Tony already have a relationship. So the Tony/Peter relationship began prior to Skin Deep.

So there is nocontradiction.

[ben_reilly_s_s]

What issues did Skin Deep take place in?

I wanna read this thing now.

[Themanofbat]

Originally Posted by ben_reilly_s_s

What issues did Skin Deep take place in?

I wanna read this thing now.

ASM #515 to 518...