Post-US World Blueprint

[Paradoxium]

Disclaimer: if you think Obama has everything under control, and you also do not want to hear about any bad news (I catch flack for this), please leave this thread NOW. Go listen to some music or play some video games or read another thread. This thread is probably not for you.


The focus of this discussion of a potential scenario that has been discussed by some world leaders... It's pretty new and I really doubt the mainstream will run this story or discuss it even.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

This is a long article, but I think it is worth your time to give it run through. It involves the Davos forum that Obama skipped recently. Suffice to say it has interesting implications. Particularly what China and Russia had to say about t-bills.

I personally haven't digested the material completely but I thought some of you guys should give it a go. Click here to read it. If any of you guys been reading up more frequently at GOLD/SILVER (hard assets) related sites, you might have come across this article.

Anyways it looks like sometime around 2010 will be the magic date.

So what do you guys think? Putin is one ambitious bastard. Or the concerns one might get out of this article are not warranted?

[Backdrifter]

Reading...

Just got the part about martial law...

First thoughts: Holy s****

[Paradoxium]

It's ridiculous if you think about it, a ex-KGB commie who is preaching free market enterprise. I don't know whether he will actually back up what he has to say.

Here was another quote from him at Davos.

Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin has said the US should take a lesson from the pages of Russian history and not exercise “excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence”.

“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”

Like I said, I don't know how much weight to put on his words, this is where my skepticism lies. Perhaps he wants some kind of power grab or something.

[Backdrifter]

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

It's ridiculous if you think about it, a ex-KGB commie who is preaching free market enterprise. I don't know whether he will actually back up what he has to say.

Here was another quote from him at Davos.
Like I said, I don't know how much weight to put on his words, this is where my skepticism lies. Perhaps he wants some kind of power grab or something.

I agree with you... it is hard to trust someone who essentially appointed himself the shadow ruler of his country. But, at the same time, he is right about Obama's economic policies.

[Backdrifter]

The reality is that foreign creditors have already announced to key USCongressional members that they will not be purchasing any USTreasury Bonds for several months

I have been wondering about that concerning the bailout. Who exactly is going to give us 1 trillion bucks in the middle of all of this?

[The Senator]

This is hilarious. The right wing has seeped to an all-time low-- drafting a scenario under which Obama destroys the United States and forces it to cooperate under the governance of a foreign empire. It never ceases to amaze me. First, we hear about how he is a Muslim terrorist plotting Jihad against the United States... then, we hear about how he is a communist who plans to enslave the working class... and now, we're hearing about how his stimulus package and presidency overall is going to to dissolve the country. And these same people keep pushing this nonsense and preaching it as if it were FACT, when all it is is whimsy.

[Paradoxium]

Originally Posted by Backdrifter

I have been wondering about that concerning the bailout. Who exactly is going to give us 1 trillion bucks in the middle of all of this?

This is one of the problems with the article. At least currently China is still buying t-bills.

I wonder if they have a full transcript from Davos.

[Backdrifter]

The article didn't really say that at all, J. It basically said that Russia and China have pretty much agree that the US and UK are on their own and that our currency is essentially finished. It isn't really totally Obama's fault, per se, but he isn't taking the proper course of action. If overspending was the problem, overspending is not the solution. We need monetary reform, economic policy reform... man we just need a whole lot of reform. But, I think the US will be consumed by its greed. And you know what? We deserve it.

[Paradoxium]

Another issue worth noting is, as of right now Eastern Europe and Russia are having their own little economic problems. Probably in even worse shape than America... doesn't jive with the idea of Putin wanting to consolidate power.

Though I have to admit, a world basket of currencies might be a good idea.

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by The Senator

This is hilarious. The right wing has seeped to an all-time low-- drafting a scenario under which Obama destroys the United States and forces it to cooperate under the governance of a foreign empire. It never ceases to amaze me. First, we hear about how he is a Muslim terrorist plotting Jihad against the United States... then, we hear about how he is a communist who plans to enslave the working class... and now, we're hearing about how his stimulus package and presidency overall is going to to dissolve the country. And these same people keep pushing this nonsense and preaching it as if it were FACT, when all it is is whimsy.

Well we had the exact same thing the last 8 years with the dems talking about how Bush was going to send us straight to hell

[Backdrifter]

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

Another issue worth noting is, as of right now Eastern Europe and Russia are having their own little economic problems. Probably in even worse shape than America... doesn't jive with the idea of Putin wanting to consolidate power.

Though I have to admit, a world basket of currencies might be a good idea.

I think the collapse of our dollar is pretty much inevitable at this point. The question is when. But, further still, I am afraid of what the government will do. I fear that a police state could be a real possibility in the coming years.

[The Overlord]

I think someone is being paranoid.

Anyway, great powers rise and then fall, that's the nature of things, the US won't be the top country forever, just Rome and the UK had to step aside eventually.

A new power will replace the US eventually, though I doubt it will be Russia, their time has faded (one of the lowest birth rates in the world). I would bet on either China or India, they have problems though (China has massive pollution problems, for example).

Originally Posted by Paradoxium

It's ridiculous if you think about it, a ex-KGB commie who is preaching free market enterprise. I don't know whether he will actually back up what he has to say.

Here was another quote from him at Davos.
Like I said, I don't know how much weight to put on his words, this is where my skepticism lies. Perhaps he wants some kind of power grab or something.

Putin is a realist not an ideologue, he follows Machiavelli more then Marx, Putin would choose whether Russia would be under a free enterprise or a state run system, based on his personal Real politique agenda. Putin is not a friend, but not an enemy either, he will serve what he believes are Russia's interests, whether that helps or hurts the US is irrelevant.

[chaseter]

We have only been a country for not even 250 years...that is nothing compared to Rome.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by chaseter

We have only been a country for not even 250 years...that is nothing compared to Rome.

Irrelevant to my point, I'm talking about the US' position, not the nation itself, the British empire had big build up, but it faded into dust pretty quickly or look at Russia they were the second most powerful country in the world for 50 years and over night it lost all that. Russia and the UK still exist, but their power bases are gone. History is a cruel task master and same thing could happen to the US. There are emerging powers in Asia, like China and India, that want to take that top stop.

[chaseter]

I am saying that if this is to come to fruition soon, how pathetic that we as a country didn't last 3 centuries. Every country does rise and fall but Rome was in power for quite a long time and so have been the same many European countries. Why are we the live fast die young country?

[SuBe]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Alexander Tyler on the Fall of the Athenian Empire*

[Ahura Mazda]

Nice article but it was overly biased and the actions which have followed Davos are not really consistent with what the author states. However, he does touch and some true points and there are some valid 'fears'.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by chaseter

I am saying that if this is to come to fruition soon, how pathetic that we as a country didn't last 3 centuries. Every country does rise and fall but Rome was in power for quite a long time and so have been the same many European countries. Why are we the live fast die young country?

Russia was only a super power for 50 years. It can happen that fast.

[Paradoxium]

It is worth noting Alexander Tyler's comments also applies to the average age of Chinese Dynasties as well.

Originally Posted by Ahura Mazda

Nice article but it was overly biased and the actions which have followed Davos are not really consistent with what the author states. However, he does touch and some true points and there are some valid 'fears'.

My thoughts precisely, with the Chinese and their purchase of treasuries.

What needs to be pointed is, these concerns stem well before Obama. As far as I am concerned it's a problem with the system. I don't think Obama is someone who is malicious but I do think the people he surrounds himself with are very questionable. Obama's culpability is perpetuating the status quo, but I wouldn't go as far as say he is responsible for (in the extreme scenario) the downfall of America.

My actual curiosity lies in the decoupling theory that keeps getting passed around. Whereon the world (particularly China) starts "consuming" more of their own produced goods and leave America out of the fold. Some of these comments hints towards that theory, and I do think it is in their own rational self interest to explore this.

I do not think America will fall into Mad Max territory, but it is well within the possibility that it won't be a nice place to live - that is the quality of life will drop on some level. High crime rates and higher cost of living for an example.

[Paradoxium]

Originally Posted by Backdrifter

I think the collapse of our dollar is pretty much inevitable at this point. The question is when. But, further still, I am afraid of what the government will do. I fear that a police state could be a real possibility in the coming years.

I think the dollar collapse that Ron Paul keeps talking about - from excessive inflation is not going to happen any time soon. Their definition of inflation does not include credits. Tons of credit were destroyed and this is why empirical evidence show a deflation. While I agree inflation will occur down the line, it is not as soon as folks like him keep parroting about.

I am not sure I would go as far as a police state. I don't think the government can afford to run one in the extreme case of a currency collapse. Pay attention to what happened in the transition from the Soviets to Russia, that is a better barometer.


================================================== =====

The article admittedly does have bias/slant in it's word, but I am more focused on some of Putin's "recommendations".

PUTIN RECOMMENDATIONS

1. Get real and declare hopeless debt securities as bad assets, and write them off. The current crisis will only be prolonged unless the balance sheets are cleaned up. A liquidation process is essential. (The refusal for banks to come clean has resulted in extreme constipation for the credit system, while the patient slowly falls into mud.)

2. Get rid of virtual money, exaggerated reports, and dubious credit ratings on financial securities. He wishes for fundamental asset values to be determined by the ability to generate added value, apart from subjective models. (He refers indirectly to credit derivatives and futures contracts, the artificial mechanisms to control price structures, those onerous devices that act as pseudo-money.)

3. Get away from the single reserve currency system, which he regards as dangerous. Instead, install several strong reserve currencies in a smooth and irreversible switch. (This is the unofficial death knell of the USDollar itself, for alternatives in usage.)

4. Get currency reliability for foreign reserves management, which can be used by other states. This can be achieved by enabling more open monetary policies, and enforcing economic and financial discipline. (This will enable regional stability and cooperation.)

Putin openly called the current unipolar world obsolete, referring indirectly to the US-UK dominance. This is as close as one could come to hearing that the current system is one step from the scrap heap. Unfortunately, chaos reigns as leadership is absent, insolvency rains down as economic troubles all over, and no leaders seem capable of pulling back the reins. Putin urged a new system of global regulators, an obvious slap at the unspeakably corrupt Securities & Exchange Commission (for stocks) and the unspeakably corrupt Commodity Futures Trading Commission (for commodities). Each is a lapdog steeped in conflict of interest, paid to look the other way to criminal activity, with no urge to prosecute their friends. The SEC and CFTC have been team players for the four major US-based crime syndicates in order for them to conduct their business. They are parasites to the system, while the syndicates spread cancers. Putin all but said to eliminate the Intl Monetary Fund and World Bank. Putin wants to see shared technology across borders. This is a slap against the US, which refuses to export advanced computer technology and telecommunications technology.

Putin made a comment about possible energy shortages and obstructed growth prospects, but urged constructive inter-dependence. This could be regarded as a threat, and should be taken as a claim for leadership. Putin reminded the group of his recommendation in 2006 for cooperation among energy suppliers, consumers, and transit countries. These suggestions fell on deaf ears over two years ago, but now after the Ukraine incidents, their time has clearly come. Putin wants a new international legal framework for energy security, with clear-cut legal statutes. Some of what Putin mentions comes as a reaction to US financial sources that are exerting extreme force on energy prices with political motive. Putin openly called for a balanced price determination system free from the vagaries of financial derivative instruments.

One might detect a theme in much of what Putin urges for new systems. Putin pursues a new energy framework to possibly serve as the foundation for a new financial structural foundation. This is a natural progression, based upon a solvent foundation, that would play into Russian strength. See the February reports for details. However, hard assets and natural resources must supplant the corrupt networks that control price systems in the current broken apparatuses. Putin is attempting to fill a dangerous vacuum. The Western leaders are caught in a vise, caught in a policy pattern toward more of the same ineffective elixirs. Putin also delivered stern warnings about NATO, whose broken treaties cause great stress. The nettlesome trend toward NATO inclusion for former Soviet Republics has also caused great stress. Expect extremely loud backfires on this front, as Ukraine will probably be used as a display case for Russian power. They will destroy the Ukrainian political structure, punish them for permitting themselves to be used as US puppets, and probably carve the nation into territories. Other Eastern European nations had better take notice.

[StorminNorman]

Originally Posted by SuBe

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Alexander Tyler on the Fall of the Athenian Empire*

I would of bolded this:
These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

That sure doesn't sound familiar.

[Addendum]

Originally Posted by chaseter

I am saying that if this is to come to fruition soon, how pathetic that we as a country didn't last 3 centuries. Every country does rise and fall but Rome was in power for quite a long time and so have been the same many European countries. Why are we the live fast die young country?

So because the US won't be top dog means that as a nation it's finished?

[Paradoxium]

Even if the US loses its superpower status, it won't go Mad Max. There will be people who have a vested interest to keep a number of things running out of self preservation. The real concern though is what will happen to the military stationed overseas.

[SuBe]

Military would return Home. The Government wouldn't abandon them overseas.

[SuBe]

Originally Posted by StorminNorman Returns

I would of bolded this:
These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

That sure doesn't sound familiar.

Question is, where on that list are we?