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Old 02-25-2009, 11:36 PM   #51
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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Not it's not, but following his heart and leaving not only her, but his friends and mother is one thing. He didn't get her drunk, pass on herpes, then go fly to Krypton with Miss October after she showed him her pregnancy test. That's sexual irresponsibility.
Not being around for the consequences of being in a sexual relationship is sexual irresponsiblity. The very fact that Jason was born not knowing who his father is shows that Superman was irresponsible. If he wasn't sexually irresponsible then he has nothing to be sorry for in the film. THe only reason leaving w/o a goodbye was wrong was because he and Lois were in a sexual relationship and presumably in a comitted romantic relationship as well. If you deny sexual irresponsiblity then you deny any wrongdoing on Superman's part. And the whole point of this aspect of the film is that he made a mistake. It just so happens that the mistake is one of sexual irresponsibility.

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Old 02-25-2009, 11:52 PM   #52
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The intent of the ending of Superman II is that Superman aleviates her pain and allows her to go on with life without the painful knowledge that she cannot be with Superman. Despite the fact that the amnesia kiss is stupid, the above is the intent. It's not about SUperman being selfish or cowardly or doing something he knows is wrong that hurts Lois.



In SR, he knows that leaving w/o the goodbye is the wrong thing to do and does it anyway. Plus he admits it's 'too difficult.' When was the last time Superman failed to do something b/c it was 'too difficult.' The intent here is that SUperman is a screw up and immature emotionally.



In Superman II he's not making a mistake by giving her the amnesia kiss, he's helping Lois. In SR, he's being immature and sexually irresponsible by not telling Lois goodbye.





So, when Justice Lords Superman kept Lois locked up in a tower, under constant guard, because it was for her own good, that was okay? Or if he decided to make himself Emperor of Earth, because it'd be in the everybody's best interests, that'd be okay too then?

After all, he intends to do good and that's what matters isn't it?

The problem with the mindwipe kiss, despite the best of intentions, is that it treats Lois like a child or a subordinate and not an adult capable of making her own decisions. It's the superpowered equivalent of Superman saying "Don't you worry your pretty little head about that Lois dear, I'll do all the thinking for both of us." It takes the power fantasy into a weird, kinda misogynisty place too. It also denies Lois any chance at personal growth. It's just like that old story that answers the question: Why doesn't Superman just solve all our problems for us? Because then we'd stay forever a child race. In taking away her memories, Superman's not only treating Lois like a child, he's making sure that she stays one.

And no, I don't think that's the message they were trying to send when they came up with that bit. I think they were just looking for a quick way to hit the reset button since the old turn-back-time trick had already been used. Nevertheless, the message was sent.

Superman leaving without saying goodbye was wrong. No doubt about that But it was a mistake apologized and atoned for, not simply wiped away.

But it wasn't movie-Superman's first mistake. When was the last time Superman didn't do something because it was too difficult you asked? When he didn't continue with his mission as Earth's protector in Superman II because the chance at a life with Lois was too difficult to resist.

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:04 AM   #53
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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you need to understand that time travling was always part of star trek. thats why it doesnt look strange in the new movie. thats why it is in the new movie.
really time traveling in a new superman movie? do we really have to complicate things so much?

i get a feeling that some fans insted of fiidng a great story are just searching for a way to make a sequel to SR for everyone.
Q: What did Superman's flying around and around and around the world do in the 1978 film?

Time travel is part of the Superman mythos.

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:11 AM   #54
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I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

Such a good movie.

"Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human."

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:15 AM   #55
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

Such a good movie.

"Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human."
He was a deadbeat dad. Even though he agreed with Dr Marcus to stay away, he was sexually irresponsible. And they promoted him to admiral.......pffft

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:16 AM   #56
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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So, when Justice Lords Superman kept Lois locked up in a tower, under constant guard, because it was for her own good, that was okay?
Can't comment on that, I haven't seen it.
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Or if he decided to make himself Emperor of Earth, because it'd be in the everybody's best interests, that'd be okay too then?


After all, he intends to do good and that's what matters isn't it?
But there's a difference between what is really good and what is not really good for everyone, isn't there.
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The problem with the mindwipe kiss, despite the best of intentions, is that it treats Lois like a child or a subordinate and not an adult capable of making her own decisions. It's the superpowered equivalent of Superman saying "Don't you worry your pretty little head about that Lois dear, I'll do all the thinking for both of us." It takes the power fantasy into a weird, kinda misogynisty place too. It also denies Lois any chance at personal growth.
It doesn't do that for me. At the time it seemed stupid, but not weird fantasy with mysogigy. No stranger than the turning back time reset. Additionally, that film came out at a much different time. WIth 21st century eyes you can't look at it the same way it came across in 1980 (81?). The world is a different place.

To me with what's given in the scene is Lois in such a state of disrray and distress that based on her not so well written dialogue is that her knowledge of the situation is too much to take. Clark tries to convince her otherwise and only as a last resort does he use the amnesia kiss to aleviate her pain and suffering.

Realistically, that whole interchange is something that should have taken place over months, but within the confines of a feature film, it is boiled down to the essentials in a few minutes. As for growth, she says it herself. "there is no getting over Superman." Or something like that.
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It's just like that old story that answers the question: Why doesn't Superman just solve all our problems for us? Because then we'd stay forever a child race.
That's a great story called "Must There Be A Superman."
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In taking away her memories, Superman's not only treating Lois like a child, he's making sure that she stays one.
No, he's only taking away the knowledge of their relationship. He's not taking away her ability to grow after this situation. He knows not to make this mistake again and he won't. He's righting a wrong, just like her death at the end of S:TM. When taken together, at the end of S:TM he chooses being human over being Kryptonian and at the end of SII he chooses his mission over a personal life. Those two films as originally intended were to show how we get the Superman we know.

But it's also a long running theme in Superman stories that Superman will always be there to save Lois from anything. That's kind of the point. He loves her, and they know they can't be togther, but it doesn't stop him from putting her first and protecting her from harm all the time anyway.
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And no, I don't think that's the message they were trying to send when they came up with that bit. I think they were just looking for a quick way to hit the reset button since the old turn-back-time trick had already been used. Nevertheless, the message was sent.
Well, I don't think the message they were trying to send was that Superman by erasing Lois memory was being selfish and trying to control Lois.
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Superman leaving without saying goodbye was wrong. No doubt about that But it was a mistake apologized and atoned for, not simply wiped away.
There is no atonement for what's Superman's done in SR. He can never make it right. The damage is done. Period. My problem is not in how it plays out once it happens, but rather that the mistake he makes is not in keeping with his character. I think a young Superman giving up his mission for Lois would be in keeping with his character, but a Superman in a sexual relationship with Lois would never leave w/o saying goodbye b/c it's 'too difficult.' I just don't buy that. It's a completely incorrect characterization of Superman. Superman II and S:TM show Superman struggling with being Superman- and that feels right. SR shows Superman struggling to be a good person, and that is completely wrong.
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But it wasn't movie-Superman's first mistake. When was the last time Superman didn't do something because it was too difficult you asked? When he didn't continue with his mission as Earth's protector in Superman II because the chance at a life with Lois was too difficult to resist.
It wasn't b/c it was too difficult- he felt like it was all over for him as Superman once Lois discovered his secret. Once she knew, he couldn't continue to try and hide it from her and he didn't want to. As the mythos went at the time- it was either Superman w/o Lois or no Superman w/ Lois. He chose their relationship b/c he chose being human at the end of S:TM.

No matter how you spin SII, SR is completely different. He knowingly hurts Lois b/c it is too difficult to say goodbye, and that is just wrong- completely out of character.

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:17 AM   #57
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

Such a good movie.

"Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human."
I don't know, but certainly you're not comparing the characterization of Capt. James T. Kirk to Superman?

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:32 AM   #58
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

What the deuce? Did I click on the same topic?

*checks title*

No, I didn't. Is this like chickenpox? Will other threads get it too, if they didn't have it already?

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:56 AM   #59
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Can't comment on that, I haven't seen it.


But there's a difference between what is really good and what is not really good for everyone, isn't there.
Yes there is. And mucking around with somebody's memories so they'll get over a relationship isn't what's really good.

I mean, I know I'd never want somebody else deciding what I should and shouldn't have in my head regardless of their intentions.

Not even Superman.


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It doesn't do that for me. At the time it seemed stupid, but not weird fantasy with mysogigy. No stranger than the turning back time reset. Additionally, that film came out at a much different time. WIth 21st century eyes you can't look at it the same way it came across in 1980 (81?). The world is a different place.
It was still weird and overbearing, even then.

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To me with what's given in the scene is Lois in such a state of disrray and distress that based on her not so well written dialogue is that her knowledge of the situation is too much to take. Clark tries to convince her otherwise and only as a last resort does he use the amnesia kiss to aleviate her pain and suffering.
Maybe he should've just waited a little bit. Lois is supposed to be strong, she might've surprised him with her ability to pull it together.

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Realistically, that whole interchange is something that should have taken place over months, but within the confines of a feature film, it is boiled down to the essentials in a few minutes. As for growth, she says it herself. "there is no getting over Superman." Or something like that.
Growth takes time. Healing takes time. It's a long and difficult process, but usually people emerge stronger at the end of it.

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That's a great story called "Must There Be A Superman."
It is.

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No, he's only taking away the knowledge of their relationship. He's not taking away her ability to grow after this situation. He knows not to make this mistake again and he won't. He's righting a wrong, just like her death at the end of S:TM. When taken together, at the end of S:TM he chooses being human over being Kryptonian and at the end of SII he chooses his mission over a personal life. Those two films as originally intended were to show how we get the Superman we know.
But he's righting a wrong in the worst possible way because it really just creates a whole other set of problems.

What do you think Lois's response would be if she found out that Superman tampered with her mind so that she wouldn't be so upset?

Do you honestly think she'd be happy knowing that?


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But it's also a long running theme in Superman stories that Superman will always be there to save Lois from anything. That's kind of the point. He loves her, and they know they can't be togther, but it doesn't stop him from putting her first and protecting her from harm all the time anyway.
Absolutely. But he doesn't really show that by treating her mind like an etch-a-sketch does he?

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Well, I don't think the message they were trying to send was that Superman by erasing Lois memory was being selfish and trying to control Lois.
No, they were trying to hit the reset button for the next movie. Superman treating Lois like a child was the intended message, but it was a message nonetheless.


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There is no atonement for what's Superman's done in SR. He can never make it right. The damage is done. Period. My problem is not in how it plays out once it happens, but rather that the mistake he makes is not in keeping with his character. I think a young Superman giving up his mission for Lois would be in keeping with his character, but a Superman in a sexual relationship with Lois would never leave w/o saying goodbye b/c it's 'too difficult.' I just don't buy that. It's a completely incorrect characterization of Superman. Superman II and S:TM show Superman struggling with being Superman- and that feels right. SR shows Superman struggling to be a good person, and that is completely wrong.
Superman Returns shows Superman struggling to belong, to find his place in the world, not to be a good person.

Good people make mistakes. Even Superman. They just make up for them.

You might not think that he did because he didn't mindwipe Lois or turn back time, but he did in a very human, very real way.


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It wasn't b/c it was too difficult- he felt like it was all over for him as Superman once Lois discovered his secret. Once she knew, he couldn't continue to try and hide it from her and he didn't want to. As the mythos went at the time- it was either Superman w/o Lois or no Superman w/ Lois. He chose their relationship b/c he chose being human at the end of S:TM.
All he had to do was say, "No Lois, the world needs me too much. You understand of course."

But he didn't. He wanted to be with Lois so much that those words were just too difficult to say.

Just like he couldn't see Lois before he left for Krypton, because she would ask him to say and it would be too difficult for him to say no.

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No matter how you spin SII, SR is completely different. He knowingly hurts Lois b/c it is too difficult to say goodbye, and that is just wrong- completely out of character.
Only if we assume movie-Superman is infalible. And he's so very clearly not. At least, not since he was willing to abandon the world and his Kryptonian heritage for Lois in Superman II. (In SR he's willing to abandon Lois and the world for his Kryptonian heritage. Turnabout is fairplay I guess.)

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Old 02-26-2009, 01:09 AM   #60
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What the deuce? Did I click on the same topic?

*checks title*

No, I didn't. Is this like chickenpox? Will other threads get it too, if they didn't have it already?

Yeah, sorry. This is my fault. I'll stop now.

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Old 02-26-2009, 05:48 AM   #61
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Thread ruined!

Close it up Showtime.

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:23 AM   #62
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

Such a good movie.

"Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human."

"Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout."

Bad comparison, Nixon, an illegitimate kid fits Jim Kirk, but not Superman.

However, you are spot on with your eval of Wrath of Kahn. A very good film.

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:56 PM   #63
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Hold on, doesn't Superman have to have known he had the kid and then done nothing about it before he could be called a deadbeat dad?
Yep. Just look at the true meaning of it here. People who say otherwise don't know a damn thing about "deadbeat dad". Some who call him that like it's a fact are just following what others said like a tool.

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Deadbeat parent is a pejorative term referring to parents of either gender that have freely chosen not to be a financially supportive parent in their children's lives. Primarily used in the US and Canada, the gender-specific deadbeat dad and deadbeat mom are commonly used by the child support agency to refer to men and women who have fathered or mothered a child and willingly fail to pay child support ordered by a family law court or statutory agency such as the Child Support Agency. The real definition is an unrestricted parent treated equally who voluntarily chooses not to be a regular or supportive parent in his or her child or children's life or lives.
This is proof Supes is not a deadbeat dad, no matter how much some keep saying it is like it's a fact when the real meaning of it said Supes is not.

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Old 02-26-2009, 05:15 PM   #64
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my solution removes the whole issue of superman dad. Taht way it's the son he always wanted, but not really his son, and eventually a weapon to be turned against the man of steel.

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Old 02-26-2009, 05:46 PM   #65
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what solution is that, Superfreak?

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Old 02-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #66
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yea superfreak what idea was yours?

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:08 PM   #67
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what solution is that, Superfreak?
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yea superfreak what idea was yours?
You responded to his idea, he posted it on the first page of this thread.

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:28 PM   #68
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oh sorry i totally forgot what was posted on the first page.

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:31 PM   #69
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oh sorry i totally forgot what was posted on the first page.
No need to apologize.

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Old 02-26-2009, 10:32 PM   #70
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ok.

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Old 02-27-2009, 07:12 AM   #71
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I just think the secret to a 'routh' superman franchise is to divorce it from the donner franchise, in order to remove the inconsistancies, and to re-explain those things that occur in SR in a different new frame, rather than using the Donner franchise as the framing for the events in SR.

it allows for one to:
-redefine Lex for the prequel... who would be mentally unstable after superman overthrows his plot in the prequel, infact they could play upon the vanity issue with Lex, and actually give him hair... that would be lost thanks to Superman's actions.
-redefine Jason as an experiment (to be revealed in an SR sequel), but still the product of a rape, but a scientific one by Lex.

-and I'd throw in, that'd I'd redefine clark a little. In my 'solution' I'd like the story to smell like 'The Quiet American', the Micheal Caine version. With Clark like Fowler, and Lex like Pyle.



again, I state that SR is not the greatest film in the world... but I also think it is quite salvagable. It's the frame through which SR is viewed that has the worst effect on the movie. I think by trashing the idea of vague continuity, in favor of a new 'background', would help to make SR appear a little better, although it won't be better.

I'd prefer that they do this, than just make an SR sequel, that is divorced from SR. This makes little sense to me. Yes it solves the immediate problems, but the grander multi film arc(s) will suffer terribly.

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Old 03-01-2009, 07:21 AM   #72
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Mommy! Mommy! Look what I did!
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=317123

In MY opinion that is good enough for a reboot...
Anyone agree?

It's unfinished and I soon hope to continue...

Oh and I stuff in a Batman cameo (Bruce Wayne in Tibet from Batman Begins)...
Clark goes to Tibet for a story and sees Wayne being arrested ...
There eyes meet for a moment.. the fans scream with joy... and the story continues..

Cheezy but effective...

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Old 03-01-2009, 01:47 PM   #73
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^The Batman cameo would be cool if Bale's in it.

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Old 03-01-2009, 02:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

Such a good movie.

"Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human."
It is. And I just saw it on the big screen a couple of months ago. The audience was totally into it. Pure Trek geeks, like I. Of course, we all cheered and applauded at all the right places.


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Yes there is. And mucking around with somebody's memories so they'll get over a relationship isn't what's really good.

I mean, I know I'd never want somebody else deciding what I should and shouldn't have in my head regardless of their intentions.

Not even Superman.




It was still weird and overbearing, even then.



Maybe he should've just waited a little bit. Lois is supposed to be strong, she might've surprised him with her ability to pull it together.



Growth takes time. Healing takes time. It's a long and difficult process, but usually people emerge stronger at the end of it.



It is.



But he's righting a wrong in the worst possible way because it really just creates a whole other set of problems.

What do you think Lois's response would be if she found out that Superman tampered with her mind so that she wouldn't be so upset?

Do you honestly think she'd be happy knowing that?




Absolutely. But he doesn't really show that by treating her mind like an etch-a-sketch does he?



No, they were trying to hit the reset button for the next movie. Superman treating Lois like a child was the intended message, but it was a message nonetheless.




Superman Returns shows Superman struggling to belong, to find his place in the world, not to be a good person.

Good people make mistakes. Even Superman. They just make up for them.

You might not think that he did because he didn't mindwipe Lois or turn back time, but he did in a very human, very real way.




All he had to do was say, "No Lois, the world needs me too much. You understand of course."

But he didn't. He wanted to be with Lois so much that those words were just too difficult to say.

Just like he couldn't see Lois before he left for Krypton, because she would ask him to say and it would be too difficult for him to say no.



Only if we assume movie-Superman is infalible. And he's so very clearly not. At least, not since he was willing to abandon the world and his Kryptonian heritage for Lois in Superman II. (In SR he's willing to abandon Lois and the world for his Kryptonian heritage. Turnabout is fairplay I guess.)
FANTASTIC POST. You are my hero.

And I find it so funny and convinient how Mego finds all type of excuses to justify Superman's mistakes in STM and SII, but he can't do the same with Superman in SR.

IMO, the worst thing Superman ever did was to abandon the world forever just to sleep with a girl... oh, and the mind deleting stuff was just awful and very childish as well on so many levels.

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Last edited by Mostpowerful; 03-01-2009 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:10 PM   #75
FlawlessVictory
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Default Re: Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

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Originally Posted by Mostpowerful View Post
It is. And I just saw it on the big screen a couple of months ago. The audience was totally into it. Pure Trek geeks, like I. Of course, we all cheered and applauded at all the right places.




FANTASTIC POST. You are my hero.

And I find it so funny and convinient how Mego finds all type of excuses to justify Superman's mistakes in STM and SII, but he can't do the same with Superman in SR.

IMO, the worst thing Superman ever did was to abandon the world forever just to sleep with a girl... oh, and the mind deleting stuff was just awful and very childish as well on so many levels.
Yup, plenty of lame scenes from S:TM, Superman 2 and SR. Which is why I want a complete break from this Donner Superman and I want something exciting onscreen that we haven't seen before from someone who bothers to open up a comic book.

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