The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > The Avengers > Marvel's The Avengers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2009, 03:17 PM   #1
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Let's be honest, it is very unlikely that Marvel will do a completely faithful adaption of the first 6 issues of THE ULTIMATES comic for the live action AVENGERS movie, since THE ULTIMATES (as written in the comics) would not appeal to the non comic book reading all ages general audience. This is one of the reasons why the 2 ULTIMATE AVENGERS movies were an amalgamated version of the original 616 AVENGERS and THE ULTIMATES. If the under performance of the WATCHMEN movie has taught us anything, it's that MOST (NOT ALL) non comic book readers/moviegoers DO NOT have any interest in superhero movies where the MAIN heroes in the movie are either (a) full blown insane or (b) morally corrupt to down right evil. I believe that MOST people want heroes who have (a) have easilly forgivable and/or redeemable flaws (b) who actually act like heroes and (c) who they would want to be (or would like to imagine themselves being). I also think that MOST (NOT ALL) people want (and expect) superhero movies to be more fantasy with a touch of realism as opposed to being ultra realistic with elements of fantasy.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 03:25 PM   #2
mjdiddy1
Side-Kick
 
mjdiddy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 674
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Did the Watchmen under perform?

mjdiddy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 03:31 PM   #3
Crook
Banned User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 16,301
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

All Watchmen showed us is that it's story wasn't mainstream-friendly. That was quite obvious from anyone who has read the book.

Whereas Snyder stuck close to a narrative that wasn't mass-appealing in the first place, you don't have this tight spot with Avengers. You can create your own. X-Men is more comparable in this situation.

Crook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 03:36 PM   #4
WeaponXProject
Triple bladed shave.
 
WeaponXProject's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 2,883
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

This is a terrible comparison in my mind. Not only did Watchmen do well, AS A "R" RATED FILM, but it is nothing like the Avengers.

The material is never gonna be completely faithful. Its film dude. Get used to it. I still think Avengers will be sweet if they have the budget and actors of great quality. Not to mention we don't even know what Avengers will have in store yet.

__________________
My common sense is TINGLING!

In space, no one can hear you scream.

The Forever War
WeaponXProject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 03:46 PM   #5
Kirk Langstrom
FRANCINE!!!!
 
Kirk Langstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 20,160
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crook View Post
All Watchmen showed us is that it's story wasn't mainstream-friendly. That was quite obvious from anyone who has read the book.

Whereas Snyder stuck close to a narrative that wasn't mass-appealing in the first place, you don't have this tight spot with Avengers. You can create your own. X-Men is more comparable in this situation.
Agreed.

Kirk Langstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 04:26 PM   #6
Blader5489
CASUAL SEX!
 
Blader5489's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,862
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Given the source material and R-rating, Watchmen is doing pretty well for itself.

__________________

Blader5489 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 05:10 PM   #7
Shifty
Alcoholic Genius
 
Shifty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Earth Dimension C-137
Posts: 13,557
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blader5489 View Post
Given the source material and R-rating, Watchmen is doing pretty well for itself.
And runtime.

__________________
THOSE GUYS ARE INSIDE YOU BUILDING A PIECE OF ****, ETHAN!
They're inside you building a monument to compromise!

Rick and Morty
Shifty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 08:13 PM   #8
hippie_hunter
The King is Back!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
hippie_hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Titanium Groceries
Posts: 51,615
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

I doubt that Marvel will be doing a straight up adaptation with the Ultimates. I think they'll end up doing an Ultimate/616 hybird with the Avengers being operatives of the government, but they'll still be their traditional superheroic selves.

And based on how Iron Man was, I'd say that it'll feel more 616 than Ultimate.

__________________
Titanium Groceries!!!
hippie_hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 10:38 PM   #9
marcvader
Lurker #1
 
marcvader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The MIA
Posts: 9,513
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

No comparison what so ever in my mind.

__________________
* * *CAPTAIN AMERICA* * *
******THE WINTER SOLDIER******
__________________#1 CBM of 2014____________________
Twitter- @mrpink13
HAIL HYDRA!
marcvader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:33 AM   #10
Octoberist
point blank
 
Octoberist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,530
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
Let's be honest, it is very unlikely that Marvel will do a completely faithful adaption of the first 6 issues of THE ULTIMATES comic for the live action AVENGERS movie, since THE ULTIMATES (as written in the comics) would not appeal to the non comic book reading all ages general audience. This is one of the reasons why the 2 ULTIMATE AVENGERS movies were an amalgamated version of the original 616 AVENGERS and THE ULTIMATES. If the under performance of the WATCHMEN movie has taught us anything, it's that MOST (NOT ALL) non comic book readers/moviegoers DO NOT have any interest in superhero movies where the MAIN heroes in the movie are either (a) full blown insane or (b) morally corrupt to down right evil. I believe that MOST people want heroes who have (a) have easilly forgivable and/or redeemable flaws (b) who actually act like heroes and (c) who they would want to be (or would like to imagine themselves being). I also think that MOST (NOT ALL) people want (and expect) superhero movies to be more fantasy with a touch of realism as opposed to being ultra realistic with elements of fantasy.
There isn't a whole lot of weight here.

Again, Watchmen is one of a kind and it's a hard book to adapt.

__________________
PAUL RUDD IS IMMORTAL!
Octoberist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 09:26 AM   #11
roach
I am the night
 
roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Under your Refrigerator
Posts: 38,913
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

i wouldnt say its underperforming unless you were expecting TDK numbers and then if you were then you have issues

__________________
There seems to be a grave misunderstanding in todayís protest-hungry world of entertainment fans into how far their opinion should really matter. You donít like a story? Thatís fine Ė donít read a story. Former Marvel editor Tom Brennan
roach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 11:36 AM   #12
Shivsguy616
Side-Kick
 
Shivsguy616's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: …ire
Posts: 1,895
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

...Watchmen didn't underperform. So, no, marvel should do Avengers.

Shivsguy616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 12:43 PM   #13
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjdiddy1 View Post
Did the Watchmen under perform?
Yes. Despite being the #1 movie in it's opening weekend and making $55 million, the studios were expecting the movie to make slightly more money then it did (they were expecting the movie to make $60+ million in it's opening weekend). Also, the word of mouth from mainstream non comic book readers/moviegoers has been mostly negative. There's a reason why one of the screenwriters of the movie has recently sent out an open letter to fans who have seen and enjoyed the movie, to go back and watch the movie in it's 2nd weekend.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 12:49 PM   #14
Raiden
Say hello 2 my lil friend
 
Raiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 25,228
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

The Ultimates isn't like the Watchmen, and Marvel can loosely adapt Mark Miller's story along with the 616 Avengers. I think Ultimates' greatest achievement was making Avengers into a real-world superhero team, whereas Avengers feels like sci-fi and fantasy intertwined. I'm sure they will have the right combination of realism and fantasy in this movie, like they did with Iron Man.

__________________
"I know I'm asking a lot, but the price of freedom is high, it always has been, and it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not." - Captain America
Raiden is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 12:49 PM   #15
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaponXProject View Post
This is a terrible comparison in my mind. Not only did Watchmen do well, AS A "R" RATED FILM, but it is nothing like the Avengers.

The material is never gonna be completely faithful. Its film dude. Get used to it. I still think Avengers will be sweet if they have the budget and actors of great quality. Not to mention we don't even know what Avengers will have in store yet.
I see that you and others have missed my entire point. My point was/is that if Marvel is going to make a live action AVENGERS movie, they should go with the ORIGINAL HEROIC 616 versions of the characters and NOT the deconstructed LESS HEROIC and cynical Ultimate version of the characters and concept.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:07 PM   #16
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
The Ultimates isn't like the Watchmen, and Marvel can loosely adapt Mark Miller's story along with the 616 Avengers. I think Ultimates' greatest achievement was making Avengers into a real-world superhero team, whereas Avengers feels like sci-fi and fantasy intertwined. I'm sure they will have the right combination of realism and fantasy in this movie, like they did with Iron Man.
Millar making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team is pretty much obvious that the book was trying to be a WATCHMEN 2.0. And IMO, making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team was less of an achievement and was nothing more then yet another tired dark "grim and gritty" superhero comic. Hell, even the whole idea about the Ultimates working for the government was done twice before back in the late 90's with the crappy HEROES REBORN AVENGERS comic and the equally crappy AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND cartoon.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 02:48 PM   #17
sdc10
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 825
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
Millar making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team is pretty much obvious that the book was trying to be a WATCHMEN 2.0. And IMO, making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team was less of an achievement and was nothing more then yet another tired dark "grim and gritty" superhero comic. Hell, even the whole idea about the Ultimates working for the government was done twice before back in the late 90's with the crappy HEROES REBORN AVENGERS comic and the equally crappy AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND cartoon.
Saying Millar was trying to make the Ultimates into another Watchmen is a pretty ridiculous and unfounded statement. There are plenty of comics which go for a more "real world" feel. I for one hope they go for a more Ultimates tone to the movie just based on the fact the movies so far have had a real world feel to them, also i think it would be kinda ridiculous seeing Hawkeye in the purple if he is included in the movie.

sdc10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:13 PM   #18
Raiden
Say hello 2 my lil friend
 
Raiden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 25,228
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
Millar making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team is pretty much obvious that the book was trying to be a WATCHMEN 2.0. And IMO, making THE ULTIMATES into a "real world" superhero team was less of an achievement and was nothing more then yet another tired dark "grim and gritty" superhero comic. Hell, even the whole idea about the Ultimates working for the government was done twice before back in the late 90's with the crappy HEROES REBORN AVENGERS comic and the equally crappy AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND cartoon.
I read both Watchmen and The Ultimates, and I didn't get the sense that Miller was trying to turn Avengers into Watchmen, but he just wanted to recreate Avengers into a modern-day superhero team that works with the government. Like it or not, because of the realism in Iron Man (and probably the upcoming Cap America movie), this Avengers movie will be steered toward realism, which means it will probably resemble Ultimates moreso than Avengers. Even Thor will undergo some changes to modernize him quite a bit, otherwise he'd look way too out-of-place in the Avengers movie. It will have elements of 616 but it will have a style that is closer to the IM movie than the comic book.

__________________
"I know I'm asking a lot, but the price of freedom is high, it always has been, and it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one, then so be it. But I'm willing to bet I'm not." - Captain America
Raiden is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 05:16 PM   #19
roach
I am the night
 
roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Under your Refrigerator
Posts: 38,913
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

the movie made 83.2 mil opening weekend

__________________
There seems to be a grave misunderstanding in todayís protest-hungry world of entertainment fans into how far their opinion should really matter. You donít like a story? Thatís fine Ė donít read a story. Former Marvel editor Tom Brennan
roach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:20 PM   #20
JackIvyGB
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 410
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

So basically, the original post says "Don't do the Ultimates because audience won't like a hero as the villain'?


So don't make Hulk or Black widow a villain. Zing! Skip the first book and go to the alien invasion story.

Seriously, it's not that hard. And if you don't like the way the heroes personalities are presented in the Ultimates, just use the 616 personalities. Zing!

None of that means that you can't use the storyline from the Ultimates:

Government agency SHIELD and their leader Nick Fury recruit superheroes to defend the country against a rising extra-terrestrial and supervillain threat. They take on an invading alien force that has ties to Captain America's past, and defend the city against a united front comprised of the teams most powerful enemies. (Obviously not in the same film, but aliens in the first, something else for #2, and all the villains for the sequel)

Even better, we could still have the team fight the hulk without turning him into the bad guy. The leader was set-up at the end of TIH, right? There's no reason he couldn't be a part of the villain team and mind control Hulk to act against the avengers. They fight. Hulk would eventually break his hold somehow and rejoin the good guys for the big final fight.

At the end, have them disconnect from SHIELD so they can help the world without making it seem like govt. intervention, and then that frees you up to bring in more 616 elements (ie, other heroes, villains, Avengers based in Stark Towers, etc.) Don't follow Ultimates 3, cause I think even fans of the ultimates can all agree that it SUCKED.

Just because it's the Ultimates story doesn't mean they have to use every detail. Just delete the Black Widow kills Hawkeye's family subplot and keep her a good guy, lose all the giant man beats wasp shenanigans, the defenders, Hulk trial, all that. Just have Giant man upset that he spends more time in the lab than in the field, he gets in a fight with jan (not physical, just a common verbal fight like couples get in), but he has a chance to redeem himself when he is the one swatting UFOs out of the air like flies.

The Ultimates is too tailor made for the cinema to completely ignore. You just have to ADAPT it, like any other comic book movie. I'm sure other avengers stories will influence the movie too.

And the point about people wanting their comic movies to be more fantasy than reality? Let's see...someone help me out here...what was that one movie that came out a little while back about the bat dude and the guy with the face paint? Over rated or not, ask people what they liked the most about it, and other than Heath's awesome Joker, they'll say "I like that it was real" (even if real isn't neccessarily the best word for it). Obviously, with Thor and a giant green monster, that level of plausibility (I like that word) may not be as reachable, but if the Ultimates was able to get it down to a level where people were calling it "realistic", you can bet that it's something that the writers/director/actors/crew/whoever will be looking at in the making of this film, as RDJ has already mentioned that trying to cement all these characers together in a "realistic" way was something they were looking at and were concerned about getting right.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

PS
I DO hope they use the scene when Hawkeye is captured and escapes. That is the epitome of awesome. Maybe not fingernails (which would be a little grusome for the kids), but loose screws or something. He takes out one guy, the guy falls on his lap, uses stuff from him, etc.


Last edited by JackIvyGB; 03-13-2009 at 06:26 PM.
JackIvyGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:26 PM   #21
roach
I am the night
 
roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Under your Refrigerator
Posts: 38,913
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

I want realism but not to the point that you eliminate classic Avenger elements in the name of realism

__________________
There seems to be a grave misunderstanding in todayís protest-hungry world of entertainment fans into how far their opinion should really matter. You donít like a story? Thatís fine Ė donít read a story. Former Marvel editor Tom Brennan
roach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:47 PM   #22
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
the movie made 83.2 mil opening weekend
That's including worldwide box office ticket sales. Domestic, the movie made $55 million in it's opening weekend.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:48 PM   #23
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by roach View Post
I want realism but not to the point that you eliminate classic Avenger elements in the name of realism
My feelings exactly.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:50 PM   #24
roach
I am the night
 
roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Under your Refrigerator
Posts: 38,913
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
My feelings exactly.
this was my issues with Nolan's Batman

__________________
There seems to be a grave misunderstanding in todayís protest-hungry world of entertainment fans into how far their opinion should really matter. You donít like a story? Thatís fine Ė donít read a story. Former Marvel editor Tom Brennan
roach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 06:54 PM   #25
Blade X
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 643
Default Re: The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackIvyGB View Post
So basically, the original post says "Don't do the Ultimates because audience won't like a hero as the villain'?


So don't make Hulk or Black widow a villain. Zing! Skip the first book and go to the alien invasion story.

Seriously, it's not that hard. And if you don't like the way the heroes personalities are presented in the Ultimates, just use the 616 personalities. Zing!

None of that means that you can't use the storyline from the Ultimates:

Government agency SHIELD and their leader Nick Fury recruit superheroes to defend the country against a rising extra-terrestrial and supervillain threat. They take on an invading alien force that has ties to Captain America's past, and defend the city against a united front comprised of the teams most powerful enemies. (Obviously not in the same film, but aliens in the first, something else for #2, and all the villains for the sequel)

Even better, we could still have the team fight the hulk without turning him into the bad guy. The leader was set-up at the end of TIH, right? There's no reason he couldn't be a part of the villain team and mind control Hulk to act against the avengers. They fight. Hulk would eventually break his hold somehow and rejoin the good guys for the big final fight.

At the end, have them disconnect from SHIELD so they can help the world without making it seem like govt. intervention, and then that frees you up to bring in more 616 elements (ie, other heroes, villains, Avengers based in Stark Towers, etc.) Don't follow Ultimates 3, cause I think even fans of the ultimates can all agree that it SUCKED.

Just because it's the Ultimates story doesn't mean they have to use every detail. Just delete the Black Widow kills Hawkeye's family subplot and keep her a good guy, lose all the giant man beats wasp shenanigans, the defenders, Hulk trial, all that. Just have Giant man upset that he spends more time in the lab than in the field, he gets in a fight with jan (not physical, just a common verbal fight like couples get in), but he has a chance to redeem himself when he is the one swatting UFOs out of the air like flies.

The Ultimates is too tailor made for the cinema to completely ignore. You just have to ADAPT it, like any other comic book movie. I'm sure other avengers stories will influence the movie too.

And the point about people wanting their comic movies to be more fantasy than reality? Let's see...someone help me out here...what was that one movie that came out a little while back about the bat dude and the guy with the face paint? Over rated or not, ask people what they liked the most about it, and other than Heath's awesome Joker, they'll say "I like that it was real" (even if real isn't neccessarily the best word for it). Obviously, with Thor and a giant green monster, that level of plausibility (I like that word) may not be as reachable, but if the Ultimates was able to get it down to a level where people were calling it "realistic", you can bet that it's something that the writers/director/actors/crew/whoever will be looking at in the making of this film, as RDJ has already mentioned that trying to cement all these characers together in a "realistic" way was something they were looking at and were concerned about getting right.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

PS
I DO hope they use the scene when Hawkeye is captured and escapes. That is the epitome of awesome. Maybe not fingernails (which would be a little grusome for the kids), but loose screws or something. He takes out one guy, the guy falls on his lap, uses stuff from him, etc.
Again, you're missing my point. The type of realism I don't want to see in this movie is the heroes acting like psychos or unheroic. I also want to see the characters in their classic 616 colorful costumes and not dressed in played out black leather or realistic uniforms.

Blade X is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.