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Old 03-16-2009, 04:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

The most realistic thing in the Avengers that I can think of off the top of my head will be Captain America's origin. He gets his abilities through what is basically a super steroid. Everything else is a stretch. Being blasted with radiation doesn't give you powers. It gives you cancer. Anyways, I don't care. It is a comic book/movie. At no point will I be like "no way could that ever happen."

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Old 03-16-2009, 06:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Thor might upset non Fans but who cares about them. the General audiance gets every thing else they want

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Old 03-16-2009, 07:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

None of them are realistic. A man can't turn into a giant green monster. A man can't create an ultra-flexible robot suit that flies. A man can't survive being frozen in the ocean for 70 years.

I don't see the issue, really.

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Old 03-16-2009, 08:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Iron Man proved that if the movie is genuinely good then people will go and see it

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Old 03-16-2009, 10:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

The more people keep thinking cinematic realism equals realistic as in 'exists in the real world' the more I want to throw something...

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Old 03-17-2009, 01:54 AM   #31
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

I don't think the majority of people really like Thor, so that's going to be the real problem. But if the public goes and sees the Thor movie/likes it, then I'm sure they'd be ok with him showing up in the Avengers.

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Old 03-17-2009, 01:59 AM   #32
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I don't think the majority of people really like Thor, so that's going to be the real problem. But if the public goes and sees the Thor movie/likes it, then I'm sure they'd be ok with him showing up in the Avengers.
Thor comes off as a really big douche to me. I was watching the cartoon Avengers movie and I almost wanted to turn it off every time he walked in flexing his muscles with his hair blowing. He just pisses me off... lol.

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Old 03-17-2009, 04:03 AM   #33
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Thor is probably going to be the hardest to pull off as people in the general public always complain characters like Superman are too much like gods and are unrelatable. I think Thor has it worse then Superman in that respect. He's also very melodramatic and he usually uses words like "Thee" or "Thou". I imagine a lot of people will just view him as annoying. I'm actually kind of nervous about how they will pull it off with his solo film.

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Old 03-17-2009, 04:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Aluchak, that's the Ultimate version for you. No surprise. Watch Hulk Vs. Thor for a more accurate portrayal. DH, I would expect Thor being a more godly version of Aragorn.

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Old 03-17-2009, 05:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

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The more people talk about realism, the more I want to throw something.
Same.

Most comics aren't realistic especially the Avengers. Not everything needs to the BB treatment.

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Old 03-19-2009, 05:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

I like Miller's approach to this problem in The Ultimates. He wrote that Thor is indeed the God of Thunder, but the world and his teammates were skeptical about whether he was telling the truth or is a lunatic, and it wasn't until Loki's plan to destroy the world nearly succeed before Thor was revealed to be telling the truth. However, since Thor will have his own movie before Avengers, this ambiguity may not work for this movie. I think they should just have some healthy skepticism and nice humor about it, and that should be fine.

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Old 03-19-2009, 06:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Depends, if Thor is set all in Asgard (which I think would be very cool) the aformentioned angle in Avengers would work just fine.

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Old 03-23-2009, 10:30 PM   #38
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

I'm really nervous about thor, just because I think it will be the hardest to pull off.... I really hope they cast someone good as thor and not some meathead who just ahs the looks

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Old 03-25-2009, 01:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

The thing about the Avengers is that effectively developing the movie-verse to include ulta-hi-tech, outlandish psuedo-science, and mystical otherworldly elements is easier that some are expressing, BUT much more difficult that others seem to believe.

At the end of the day, we need to have a great story and great onscreen dynamics, to effectively produce the suspension of disbelief that is necessary for a sci-fi / fantasy movie to succeed. What I am talking about is story-telling. Spiderman didn't just show up with web-slinging powers... They told a story on how it happenned. They took the time to make it a genetically altrered spider, showed a period of acclimation to his new powers, and time to develop his character theme...

IM had a pretty long drawn out component to his origin. He wasn't just some guy that built an armored suit... He was depicted as a boy genius, light-years ahead of anyone else. The IM suit would be no problem for a futuristic movie... but for IM (in the here and now) they wanted to add a little bit of back story to justify this as-of-yet never seen technology.

So, I say... Thor needs to has to have at leastl mildly sophisticated backstory. His origin, his world, his powers should be fleshed out in a way that contextualizes his for coming to Earth and being among other characters from other genres of sci-fi / fantasy.

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Old 03-25-2009, 12:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

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Originally Posted by November Rain View Post
realism is only in approach.

mystic beings have been portrayed in realistic ways throughout the course of film.

look at blade, vampires are shown in a realistic manner that doesn't push the viewer out

why worry over something that doesn't matter?

the group all stem from different walks of life, that's the whole point of them.
November you did it again.I almost always find myself agreeing with you.
Realism is all in the approach.
That's why any origin,any story anthing can be done it all depends on the approach.

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Old 03-25-2009, 12:54 PM   #41
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

The problem I just made in the above statement is I don't think Marvel get's it.

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Old 03-25-2009, 01:17 PM   #42
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

What evidence tells you this from their two movies?

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Old 03-25-2009, 01:40 PM   #43
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What evidence tells you this from their two movies?
Marvel always seems to be apologizing for themselves instead of just putting the material out.Thor will probably be explained in some stupid realistic fashion making Thor totally unrealistic.I hate the whole freakin Ultimate concept.(The Hulk is eating people???)At this point he needs to be a villian.What was wrong with the way it was????
I't like saying okay umm we were wrong so let's explain it this way.
I'm not judging Marvel from just two movies.I'm judging from the Animated concepts to T.V shows to Movies etc.
I'm going as far back as I can rememeber even from the early seventies.Until recently DC had always represented their characters better then Marvel.And I'm a bigger marvel fan than Dc.

The problem I just made in the above statement is I don't think Marvel get's it.
DC seems to get this concept.Batman is fiction but he is presented very real.
Even in the first Batman by Tim Burton.I mean it really doesn't get more hookey than that.
Allot of symbolizim,Even Batman Forever the Penguin was thrown into the sewer and grew up there.All fiction and non believeable .BUT!!!! The characters were real.The acters believed it.
We know it's not real all they have to do is present it realistically.Now by the Time Batman and Robin came around you could tell that Clooney really didn't believe the character he was playing.
Yet it was set in a more realistic environment then the Burton Batman.
Superman I was all fantasy outer space spaceships a flying man BUT!!! his problems were real.
So we were able to indentify.It doesn't matter where it is set or who the character is.By Superman 3 with Richard Pryer they no longer took themselves seriously.So why should we.It has to do with whether or not we can connect.Take the first Star Wars for instance outer space another time creatures and such but we could connect with the main character.This was really missing from the newer Star Wars.
November rain you made a comment on TIH about the Hulk comming across as a bully therefore he loses empathy.
Again I agree.
In first Hulk.The Hulk character was able to evoke more sympathy he came across as more innocent.
But the Banner character played by Bana seemed mean and angry to me.
Therefore I could not sympathize with the Hulk as much as I wanted.
In TIH.Norton got it and I felt sympathy for Banner but I couldn't for the Hulk he came across as mean and angry.Now someone is going to say but Hulk is mean and angry.Yes he is but he is more then that.Just mean and angry makes him too one dimensional.That get's boring after a while.Hulk is more than that.I'll prove it below.
Okay so what am I saying.
I am saying that in the T.V. both Banner and Hulk evoked Sympathy Lou and Bixby nailed it.You felt sorry for Banner and Hulk as hokey as it was in the 70's.
He was an everyday guy who messed up and wanted to fix it and it's not his fault for both Hulk and Banner.So we can all relate to that.We connected to them.As fake and as corney we may see it now.
If you took the Norton Banner with the Personality of the Hulk from the first movie.
You would have the formula you need.
I'm not talking CGI or anything of that matter.You have to empathize with both Hulk and Banner that's what makes them two people in one body and yet the same person in both forms that what makes the Hulk a hero.The Hulk should always have Banner's heart.
If you only empathize with Banner than the Hulk is a Villian if you only empathize with the Hulk than Banner is the villian.
So you leave the movie with mixed feelings about the Hulk character.It doesn't matter how good the CGI or Action is.that's why for both films the response was mixed to mediocre.
Okay where am I going as to not get of topic.
You have to be able to connect with the story and or the people in the story.Fiction or not.
That's why Iron man was a hit as riducluos as it seemed that he was being powered by a Battery and built an Armor in a cave.BUT!!!We could connect.Why?Because America is at war opression is prevelent in other countries.So it worked.
I truly apologize for taking so much space but I thought the topic was interesting.
Bottom line is this:
Realistic Fiction
or
Fictional Realism.

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Old 03-25-2009, 05:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

Jesus H Christ, the realism ******** argument again!??!

It's fantasy! Explain it all the Marvel way (psuedo science, mythology, etc.) and move on! Thor should take it's cues from LOTR, Gladiator and a little bit of Supes, nuff said.

Talk about taking the J out of joy!

I swear, captain America better not be wearing some ridiculous looking riot armor from TDK. Jesus, just let it be!

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Old 03-25-2009, 05:33 PM   #45
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

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Jesus H Christ, the realism ******** argument again!??!

It's fantasy! Explain it all the Marvel way (psuedo science, mythology, etc.) and move on! Thor should take it's cues from LOTR, Gladiator and a little bit of Supes, nuff said.

Talk about taking the J out of joy!

I swear, captain America better not be wearing some ridiculous looking riot armor from TDK. Jesus, just let it be!
Yeah... because movie making and story telling is so easy... I don't know what all the fuss is over. Just throw something out there... It will work just fine because it is fantasy.

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Old 03-26-2009, 05:02 AM   #46
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The problem I just made in the above statement is I don't think Marvel get's it.
I think they semi get it but most likely will buckle, especially with thor

the best thing about the avengers is that each one can look at the rest of the others and marvel at the sheer magnitude of the team they stand with.

a living robot/machine
a god
a frozen world war two icon
a giant green transforming monster in the body of a reluctant scientist
a giant human
a human able of controlling ants and shrinking to impossible sizes

thor shouldn't eevr come across as the elephant in the room with all these other characters around. If anything it's cap that's the elephant, a relic who survivied the impossible but has no powers.

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Old 03-26-2009, 05:30 AM   #47
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

I dont get it? I mean Iron Man was put in a Semi Realistic world but Nothing that deems Thor as out of Place.. this isnt The Dark Knight. This is a Comic Book Adaptation,its a adapted from a fictional world not a real one so Realism is Not an Issue.

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Old 03-26-2009, 05:33 AM   #48
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I think the most important thing is that you can set up as much fantasy you wish in your film. vampires, magic, space travel etc BUT your characters must be tangible and have motivations we can relate to.

instead of saying, 'right, we want a big showdown and want it to look cool, what cool things can we do' and work the film around getting it, they should be thinking 'what would banner/thor/spiderman/cap do in this situation'

Would spiderman engage in a fight with ock without trying to rationalise with his teacher first?

Would spiderman endanger the life of aunt may to carry on a pointless fight?

Would the hulk want to fight a creature he's never seen before for no reason OR hide or go after betty or his original helicopter etc


would a venom character thirsty on revenge REALLY want to team up with someone on his first attempt to kill spiderman without any other form of psychological intimidation.

would ghost rider have a light personality considering the whole's he's dug himself into with mesphisto and his father's death.

is peter parker really going to let the fame of spidey get to him, especiall when it was a similar situation that led him to neglect his responsibilities as a superhero. Would the irony of being unappreciated fit the character better.

marvel has a tendency to have its characters externally motivated, that way it can pretty much right any story it wants, the plot is just a chain of events that link up cool cgi or action sequences, sequences that sometimes have no relation to the plot at all. DC characters are internally motivated. they are also flawed and we are aware of that. They aren't necessarily idolised within or outside their world either. Marvel wants its heroes to be idolised by fans so they can sell toys.

I saw nothing idolising from batman in any of tim's films or in nolans, nor did i in superman returns, ang's hulk, glimmers of x-men and the original superman and parts of the original spiderman.

Here are films where the heroes aren't suarcoated role models, they have to make the harsh decisions, and go against everything they want or believe in for what is right. They should make you ultimately NOT want to be a hero because it's a fools game, only a crazy person would want that responsibility. THey aren't idolised, they are pitied.

marvel needs to start treating its heroes like atlas, having to balance the fate of the world with no rest or reward. Or at the very least being deeply flawed. No happy endings, no glory music, just another disaster averted for now...

I'd say they got away with iron man because he's probably the only person you can get away with it, but they didn't with the hulk. Marvel streamlined a force of nature into an understood hero. They messed up their own baby for money. They could easily do the same with thor.

Personally I think the best thing to do with thor is to play it like a fantasy film set in asgard entirely, then at the very end, zoom out and find blake locked away in some assylum with characters from the film being hospital staff. The film is made to make it seem like he's crazy and dreampt it all up. Then at the very end, stark turns up with a briefcase, blake opens it up and inside is the hammer. tony could then end by saying 'Could you give me a hand lifting it, it's pretty heavy'

While providing an authentic old age story, it provides a level of skepticism in both the film universe and the audience that can be played with in the joint instalment. the other members' skepticism about his authenticity is a great piece of character interaction we shouldn't be denied. It was one of the better aspects of the ultimates.

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Old 03-26-2009, 08:41 AM   #49
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November Rain;16655411]I think the most important thing is that you can set up as much fantasy you wish in your film. vampires, magic, space travel etc BUT your characters must be tangible and have motivations we can relate to.
Exactly Marvel needs to stop trying to twist it arond because they sacrifice their intention in the process.

is peter parker really going to let the fame of spidey get to him, especiall when it was a similar situation that led him to neglect his responsibilities as a superhero. Would the irony of being unappreciated fit the character better.

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Wow!!!That's so true never thought about that.Although I must admit there was somthing annoying about the whole thing.He seemed spaced out half of the time.In the comics he carries the guilt of his uncles death with him all the time.So it doesn't make sense as why he wouldn't in this movie.Especially with the case of his uncles murder being re-opened.It should have brought back all those old feelings.

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marvel has a tendency to have its characters externally motivated, that way it can pretty much right any story it wants, the plot is just a chain of events that link up cool cgi or action sequences, sequences that sometimes have no relation to the plot at all. DC characters are internally motivated. they are also flawed and we are aware of that. They aren't necessarily idolised within or outside their world either. Marvel wants its heroes to be idolised by fans so they can sell toys.
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Very true I see Marvel as always sacrificing the integrity of it's heroes and the only reason why they even survive the Marvel mess up's is because they have been around such a long time and because of the integrity that Marvel once was.Back in the days when the characters had a soul.
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I saw nothing idolising from batman in any of tim's films or in nolans, nor did I in superman returns, ang's hulk, glimmers of x-men and the original superman and parts of the original spiderman.
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And here you have just mentioned the best Superhero movies ever made.There is no denying that you are on to somthing.
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Here are films where the heroes aren't suarcoated role models, they have to make the harsh decisions, and go against everything they want or believe in for what is right. They should make you ultimately NOT want to be a hero because it's a fools game, only a crazy person would want that responsibility. They aren't idolised, they are pitied.
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And you know what that's all Marvel used to be about back in the sixties and early seventies.There comic's read like Greek trageties.In Greek mythology even the heroes story was tragic that's what makes them heroes.In spite of the cost they do what they do.They make sacrifices so other's won't have too.That's what made Marvel so great back in the days.Unfortunatly they have lost that magic.Spiderman sacificed his love,Namor sacrificed Atlantis,The Fantastic Four suffered a Normal family life,Thing suffered his appearance,X-men suffered persecution,Hulk suffered persection and a normal life,That was Marvel.
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marvel needs to start treating its heroes like atlas, having to balance the fate of the world with no rest or reward. Or at the very least being deeply flawed. No happy endings, no glory music, just another disaster averted for now....

I'd say they got away with iron man because he's probably the only person you can get away with it, but they didn't with the hulk. Marvel streamlined a force of nature into an understood hero. They messed up their own baby for money.
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That they did if any Superhero story out of all the Marvel Characters the Hulk has to play out like a Greek tragity time and time again we see that although Bruce Banner wants to be rid of Hulk at the same time while trying to destroy the Hulk the world needs him as well.Why? To save their tail from bigger threats.Leaving you feeling torn as Banner is.The creature should be misunderstood.But good in nature.As far as Iron man is concerned.
I don't think they got away with Iron Man because if you analize it they nailed it.He was Atlas having to balance between being a superpowered Weapons maker and then sacrificing it all to do the right thing.At the risk of losing it all and being ridiculed.We see his journey to stop being self centered and try to do the right thing.It was all in there.Both Stark and Iron man were heroes for doing the right ting.That's why it was a hit.

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you give me a hand lifting it, it's pretty heavy'.
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Love that!!! I could see Downey doing that.And since he is into weapons it makes sense how he would do research to have the Hammer and the money to look for it.

Rain I just have one question How long have you been reading Marvel comics?I could tell your an old schooler because you seem to point out the better aspects of Marvel story telling from the past.
I think allot of people misunderstand us because of it.I mean if I were young and picking up the latest Hulk comic.I could see how I would expect him to be nothing more than a machine of destruction with no depth.But going further back there was a much deeper story to the Hulk and all of the other characters.
You know what I Mean?

Sorry for the way I multi-quoted I don't know how to section of certain parts of a quote to comment if anyone could tell me how I would appreciate it.

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Old 03-26-2009, 09:12 AM   #50
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Default Re: Thor breaking the realism?

i don't actually read comics that much, most of my ideas of characterisation come from the cartoons.

cartoon writers are awesome

my ideas of the hulk come from the 90s tas show, the first series was amazing

my views of spiderman come from tas too. BUT it was Abbadon on this site who opened up my eyes to the flaws of it. I too loved the first film until abaddon made me realise parker is actually an arrogant dude who didn't have an outing for it until the bite, then he ****s up. not the announcer annoying him, there is NO incentive for parker to not take that robber down and he didn't fight for money, he did it for fame. Whether lee wrote it intentionally like that or not, it develops a far more complex character. It's a shame when its not followed up. You get him making all these cool inventions as well, inventions that can make him billions but he is humbled by his first lust of fame and doesn't go back.


as for the hulk, he was always portrayed as somewhat neutral in the cartoon i mentioned, bruce also kept a dictaphone so we could get inside his head. he always looked run down and guilty and you could see the conflict he had with the beast. you could see the strain it was taking on his sanity. You could see and hear the fear the man is strapped to an atomic bomb and no matter how many people the hulk 'doesn't kill' he can't live with it. On the flipside, you also see how the hulk feels about banner, about his surroundings, about hte people hunting him, he's forever antagonised. The hulk represents us, an ability to have and take what you want but when you have ultimate power, you normally find you wish for ultimate peace. he wants the same thing we want at the end of the day after he's dealt with the violence. he ultimately wants the same thing as banner. It's actually so beautiful for two characters to want the same thing but haye one another. Also seeing betty's relationship with both of them as she has feelings for the hulk and for bruce in a strange way.

the great thing about some of these shows was that it was all behind the lines, they are as shallow or as deep as you want them to be. The films don't have that depth because the writers don't UNDERSTAND how these characters interact. The funniest thing is that they interact no differently as any of us, we all have banner/parker/thor/stark/cap traits in us.

We all have a sense of duality and wish to lash out
We all feel guilty and the responsibility of not acting
We are all have this overbearing of destiny and reaching potential and having walk through fire
We all like to have a public mask of dealing with things while everything falls to bits underneath, we also use substances as a crutch
We all wish we could stand up and do the right thing all the time and be a symbol of hope

these characters are just hyperboles of these emotions while having others as well.When you start writing them as foreign entities rather than a part of yourself, you are destined to get them wrong. Anything these heroes do should do or the choices they make should be what we are capable of on our VERY BEST Days, and that's what makes it relatable because they capture a part of ourselves and should help us become better people.

that's why characters like captain america or superman's best powers aren't their weapons or their alien abilities, it's the fact that they are HUMAN and just like us, they have their trials and tribulations and just like idolised versions of us, they can still persevere

instead of accepting our destiny and the wrongs with the world, they lead us to a stature of self-empowerment to all make the small differences that eventually will add up.

or something like that for me anywho.

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