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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from?
People who hate Batman. 8 4.55%
People who hate Heath Ledger. 5 2.84%
Purists. 10 5.68%
Burton fans. 20 11.36%
Kids. 4 2.27%
Eyecandy seekers. 1 0.57%
unsophisticatists. 2 1.14%
Hollywood elitists. 6 3.41%
People who think realism is boring. 13 7.39%
People who think itís conservative. (Controversial) 4 2.27%
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. 19 10.80%
It makes people feel special. 40 22.73%
Other. 44 25.00%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-12-2010, 08:59 PM   #251
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I can't say I see it, maybe I haven't looked close enough.

Burton and Schumacher's films barely had a plot to have holes LOL and the plot of Nolan's work are well defined and also well concluded for the most part.

As I said in another thread, Nolan's biggest hindrance is the fact that his films work in a mostly hyper-realistic world and feel grounded. So when un-real/unbelievable events happen it feels out of place. For me the worst is when the school bus, not hits the man, but the fact that it drives out of the bank and there's not even a single horn blowing at this.

Another is when Joker leaves the hospital... he gets into a school bus as it drives off. This bit feels so strange because you would think someone would notice a mass murderer with makeup on whose face has been plastered all over the television. But no, not a single scream. There's even a deleted scene that shows Joker calmly sitting in the bus, I guess everyone is okay that a serial killing clown is sitting with them.

These little occurrences of unbelievable moments in a very grounded world is what make me go "hmmm" from time to time. There's far more ridiculousness in Burton and Schumacher's world but they never said they were making anything more than comic fantasies. But like I said, it's more these small moments. I thought the plot was perfectly fine.

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:03 PM   #252
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
Another is when Joker leaves the hospital... he gets into a school bus as it drives off. This bit feels so strange because you would think someone would notice a mass murderer with makeup on whose face has been plastered all over the television. But no, not a single scream. There's even a deleted scene that shows Joker calmly sitting in the bus, I guess everyone is okay that a serial killing clown is sitting with them.
That's because that bus just got taken hostage by Joker's men. You see them pulling Mike Engel onto it and everything while the hospital is exploding. They're the hostages they use in the Prewitt building.

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:12 PM   #253
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
Burton and Schumacher's films barely had a plot to have holes LOL and the plot of Nolan's work are well defined and also well concluded for the most part.
Also I think there was some obvious plot holes in the Burton movies that didn't make any sense. Just a few that spring to mind are:

- Why did Batman wait until the end of the movie to shut down Joker's poison operation in Axis? Why not do it when Joker was actually poisoning the city?
- Why were the Cops not waiting for Joker at the parade after he announced on public TV that he'd be there at midnight?
- Why did the Batwing's guns miss the Joker, despite the fact they targeted onto him?
- How did Joker have men waiting for him at the top of cathedral to fight Batman?
- Why didn't Batman just use his grappling hook to get to the top of the tower instead of wasting precious energy climbing all those stairs?
- Why on earth did Gotham City think a freakish bird man who's lived in the sewers for most of his life is the best man to run their City as Mayor?
- How did Selina know where Penguin's lair was?
- Why did Batman tell Schreck he was going to jail in the climax? Based on what charge, or what evidence?
- Why did Batman tell Selina that the law applies to him, her, and Schreck, when he's going around breaking it all the time, killing people?
- Why did Penguin bother framing Batman in the first place, when he was just going to kill him five minutes later in the Batmobile? That would have been enough to both frame him and finish him off by having his car go around mowing down citizens and Cop cars.

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:16 PM   #254
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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That's because that bus just got taken hostage by Joker's men. You see them pulling Mike Engel onto it and everything while the hospital is exploding. They're the hostages they use in the Prewitt building.
Jeez, how did I f'n miss this

Now I've got to rewatch the film just for this.

Just more proof that he really does plan every little detail. I am seriously unworthy of the genius that is Christopher Nolan. I really feel awful now.

Not even my criticism works here. So perfectly woven. I think Nolan just may be a god

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:29 PM   #255
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
I can't say I see it, maybe I haven't looked close enough.
To say that theres quite a few wouldve been quite an understatement, but I wont list them for 2 reasons

1. It would take way too much time, and I have a baaad hangover :P
2. I would be labeled as Nolan hater again

But again, as Joker said and as I also said, every Batman movie has a load of them. However, some thing that Joker listed I dont consider plotholes


Quote:
- Why were the Cops not waiting for Joker at the parade after he announced on public TV that he'd be there at midnight?
If you look closely, cops are there, but are also picking up money along with everyone else. Ah, the corrupt Gotham. The comic adaptation further explains it and gives it another reason - the cops that are there didnt epect an entire parade loaded with armed gangsters and called backup, thats why they dont take any actions and why Gordon arrives with all the cops later on

Quote:
- Why did the Batwing's guns miss the Joker, despite the fact they targeted onto him?
Because he was shooting with weapons that were designed for mass destruction, to hit one target as small as a person. Not to mention that the machine gun is a gun that has one of the worst aims

Quote:
- How did Joker have men waiting for him at the top of cathedral to fight Batman?
Comic book adaptation explained this, but when I look closely if its also in the movie, I couldnt see. The comic showed them entering the cathedral behind Joker while hes talking to Vale and the pilot

Quote:
- Why on earth did Gotham City think a freakish bird man who's lived in the sewers for most of his life is the best man to run their City as Mayor?
Because they think that hes the only one whos not corrupted. If he lived in the sewers and is looked at as Pinocchio, they trust that he has a good heart and isnt spoiled by politics, money and all that stuff

Quote:
- How did Selina know where Penguin's lair was?
She most likely followed him. She was at his speech when he made a run to the sewers

Quote:
- Why did Batman tell Schreck he was going to jail in the climax? Based on what charge, or what evidence?
He was working with Penguin's gang, Bruce even said that at the masked party


Quote:
- Why did Penguin bother framing Batman in the first place, when he was just going to kill him five minutes later in the Batmobile? That would have been enough to both frame him and finish him off by having his car go around mowing down citizens and Cop cars.
Because the point was for him not to become a martyr. Once he was framed , the name was already tainted, so there was no need to keep him alive anymore. Make him a criminal and then kill him

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:34 PM   #256
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by Joker View Post
Also I think there was some obvious plot holes in the Burton movies that didn't make any sense. Just a few that spring to mind are:

- Why did Batman wait until the end of the movie to shut down Joker's poison operation in Axis? Why not do it when Joker was actually poisoning the city?
- Why were the Cops not waiting for Joker at the parade after he announced on public TV that he'd be there at midnight?
- Why did the Batwing's guns miss the Joker, despite the fact they targeted onto him?
- How did Joker have men waiting for him at the top of cathedral to fight Batman?
- Why didn't Batman just use his grappling hook to get to the top of the tower instead of wasting precious energy climbing all those stairs?
- Why on earth did Gotham City think a freakish bird man who's lived in the sewers for most of his life is the best man to run their City as Mayor?
- How did Selina know where Penguin's lair was?
- Why did Batman tell Schreck he was going to jail in the climax? Based on what charge, or what evidence?
- Why did Batman tell Selina that the law applies to him, her, and Schreck, when he's going around breaking it all the time, killing people?
- Why did Penguin bother framing Batman in the first place, when he was just going to kill him five minutes later in the Batmobile? That would have been enough to both frame him and finish him off by having his car go around mowing down citizens and Cop cars.
Y'know, I feel like giving some really crazy answers that make even less sense and all involve Alfred but no way do I feel like multi-quoting all of that in what is essentially a joke post

But really as awful as an answer may be, what Schumacher said is really true in pertaining to this. The answer to these things is the same as the answer to why Elmer Fudd is alive in every episode of Looney Tunes even though each episode ends with him trying to kill Bugs Bunny but his gun backfires and really shooting himself instead.

As Burton himself said, his films work in a different world, a different logic. In fact, had he bookended his Batman films like he did Edward Scissorhands that would be the perfect answer. He once gave the ultimate answer. When asked how Edward got the large block of ice, or why an inventor decided to make a boy with scissors for hands in the first place, or where the inventor was buried, Tim Burton simply pointed them to the bookend sequences of the film and said that the movie is a complete fairy tale. It's a story that is just being told by a old woman to her granddaughter. And when you're told a fairy tale you just take it as it is. Batman Returns, especially, I have never ever viewed as literal. It works purely on a symbolic level. In fact, there's another site of Burton fans and they argue that BR is all just a gothic nightmare.

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Old 12-12-2010, 09:38 PM   #257
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
If you look closely, cops are there, but are also picking up money along with everyone else. Ah, the corrupt Gotham. The comic adaptation further explains it and gives it another reason - the cops that are there didnt epect an entire parade loaded with armed gangsters and called backup, thats why they dont take any actions and why Gordon arrives with all the cops later on
Forget the comic book adaption. It's got nothing to do with the movie. Gordon, the Mayor, and Dent are not shown to be corrupt, and they heard everything Joker said. There's no reason why Gordon was not there waiting with a squadron of men to take down the Joker.

Quote:
Because he was shooting with weapons that were designed for mass destruction, to hit one target as small as a person.
And you know this how? The targeting system was specific enough to zero right in on a person.

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Comic book adaptation explained this, but when I look closely if its also in the movie, I couldnt see. The comic showed them entering the cathedral behind Joker while hes talking to Vale and the pilot
Comic book adaption does not count. No men are shown in the movie entering the cathedral when Joker did.

Quote:
Because they think that hes the only one whos not corrupted.
Again you know this how? The word corruption is not even mentioned in Returns, and nobody is accused of being dirty except for Schreck by Bruce.

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If he lived in the sewers and is looked at as Pinocchio, they trust that he has a good heart and isnt spoiled by politics, money and all that stuff
The man lived in the sewers all his life. What makes him qualified to be Mayor? Why didn't they ask their 'Santa Claus' Max Schreck whom Gotham clearly sees as being lily white to be their Mayor?

Quote:
She most likely followed him. She was at his speech when he made a run to the sewers
Followed him? How did she follow him into the park, into the river (which he disappeared under water), and through the sewer tunnels? Not to mention why would she even bother?

Where are you getting this stuff from?

Quote:
He was working with Penguin's gang, Bruce even said that at the masked party
And Batman has proof of this how? Why was he not arrested earlier?

Quote:
Because the point was for him not to become a martyr. Once he was framed , the name was already tainted, so there was no need to keep him alive anymore. Make him a criminal and then kill him
That's my entire point. There was no need to go through the trouble of killing the Ice Princess for that. Just having his Batmobile run amok plowing down citizens and cars would have been enough to frame him.

What's worse? Killing one innocent or dozens? The Ice Princess frame up seemed pointless in that regard.

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:03 PM   #258
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by Joker View Post
Forget the comic book adaption. It's got nothing to do with the movie. Gordon, the Mayor, and Dent are not shown to be corrupt, and they heard everything Joker said. There's no reason why Gordon was not there waiting with a squadron of men to take down the Joker.
Even if you discard the CB Adaptation, the cops ARE there, but theyre picking up money. And dont forget that Gotham is enormous and Joker didnt say WHERE hes gonna be. Once he appeared, the cops that were around the place started picking money instead, plus they wouldnt stand a chance againts all the armed goons. Not long after the parade started cops were most likely called in and given the location of the parade, then Gordon appeared with massive police force.


Quote:
And you know this how? The targeting system was specific enough to zero right in on a person.
I know someone whos in the army and we discussed the portrayal of weapons in movies.


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Comic book adaption does not count. No men are shown in the movie entering the cathedral when Joker did.
I know, I said so too, but it wasnt ginored in the adaptation and one may assume they did enter out of frame

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Again you know this how? The word corruption is not even mentioned in Returns, and nobody is accused of it except for Schreck by Bruce.
Assumption. Based on the fact that Gotham loves Penguin and is shown to think of him as a poor Hunchback of Notre Damme, they sure love him and trust him and think hes a good hearted creature. And knowing how Gotham suffered/suffers from corruption, a pure creature who lived in the sewers looking for mommy and daddy can be trusted. In short: he was loved by the public


Quote:
The man lived in the sewers all his life. What makes him qualified to be Mayor? Why didn't they ask their 'Santa Claus' Max Schreck whom Gotham clearly sees as being lily white to be their Mayor?
Arnold didnt have any qualifications for Governor either, but his popularity, charisma and will to act got him in that place. People saw Penguin as someone like that. Shreck wouldnt work - he neede a gimmick to suddenly impeach the mayor, and the emergence of Penguin was a perfect time, plus he wouldve been Shreck's puppet and when all said and done, Penguin would sit for all the things Shreck told him to do

Quote:
Followed him? How did she follow him into the park, into the river (which he disappeared under water), and through the sewer tunnels? Not to mention why would she even bother?
She was there and saw him running away. She surely wanted to know where he lives. Why is it so impossible that she simply followed him? She had the skills

Quote:
And Batman has proof of this how? Why was he not arrested earlier?
Its in the movie. He DOESNT have a proof, thats why hes not taking him in yet. This and he thought of him more as a corrupt politician rather than criminal, until he saw how involved he was in all the situation with Penguin. Seeing that Penguin wanted him most showed implied this

Quote:
That's my entire point. There was no need to go through the trouble of killing the Ice Princess for that. Just having his Batmobile run amok plowing down citizens and cars would have been enough to frame him.
WOuldnt be nearly as successfull. People actually saw Batman looking down when Princess was falling and an entire crowd saw Batman running into the Batmobile. Otherwise it couldve been anyone in the batmobile

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:18 PM   #259
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Followed him? How did she follow him into the park, into the river (which he disappeared under water), and through the sewer tunnels? Not to mention why would she even bother?

Where are you getting this stuff from?
LOL

Thanks for making me spit up my vishiswa, but no matter. It was cold anyway

I actually think that is the best answer and does make a tad bit of sense. We do see in that very scene that Selina Kyle is at the mayor meeting and when the people learn of the truth and Penguin runs off stage, we also see Selina Kyle leave around the same time too. It's possible she followed him but like you said, in that crazy twisted way she would have had to swim through the river and follow him through the tunnel to do all of this.

I also do like the idea that the people of Gotham liked Penguin and naively voted for him as Mayor because they saw him as a pure hearted Elephant Man type creature. It's really sappy in a Tim Burton type way. But in the end I prefer my answer.

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:29 PM   #260
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Even if you discard the CB Adaptation, the cops ARE there, but theyre picking up money. And dont forget that Gotham is enormous and Joker didnt say WHERE hes gonna be.
He said he wanted to be there for the anniversary party, where he will dump 20 million on the crowd. He shows up at midnight where the crowd was.

If the common citizens knew where he'd be, how would the Cops not know? Even if I bought your logic, there would still be Cops patrolling the City in cars, helicopters etc looking for ANY sign of the mass murderer who's been poisoning their people for weeks. Big parade with blaring music is not going to be hard to spot.

Quote:
Once he appeared, the cops that were around the place started picking money instead, plus they wouldnt stand a chance againts all the armed goons.
I'm sorry, but for clarification can you post a screencap of these Cops being there? I can't seem to spot any:













Quote:
I know someone whos in the army and we discussed the portrayal of weapons in movies.
No offense to you personally but I don't buy that. Do you have any proof beyond a hearsay conversation you had a with a friend?

Quote:
I know, I said so too, but it wasnt ginored in the adaptation and one may assume they did enter out of frame
Out of frame, out of movie. You can only judge the movie based on what was shown. Something as important as that would have been made a point to be shown.

Quote:
Assumption. Based on the fact that Gotham loves Penguin and is shown to think of him as a poor Hunchback of Notre Damme, they sure love him and trust him and think hes a good hearted creature. And knowing how Gotham suffered/suffers from corruption, a pure creature who lived in the sewers looking for mommy and daddy can be trusted. In short: he was loved by the public
I know he was loved by the public, but that still doesn't sell me on the idea that this whole city of people would be stupid enough to think this poor lonely freak is the best man to run their city.

It would be far more realistic for them to want an intelligent and loved wealthy businessman like Schreck to be Mayor.

Quote:
Arnold didnt have any qualifications for Governor either, but his popularity, charisma and will to act got him in that place.
Arnold had an education, and wealth.

Quote:
Shreck wouldnt work - he neede a gimmick to suddenly impeach the mayor, and the emergence of Penguin was a perfect time, plus he wouldve been Shreck's puppet and when all said and done, Penguin would sit for all the things Shreck told him to do
Of course Shreck would work. He said himself to the Mayor that he had enough signatures from Schreck employees alone to want a recall. There was his platform. People want a recall.

Why rely on another person when you can get the fame and glory for yourself, without relying on a vicious, unpredictable, nose biting, fish chewing freak?

Quote:
She was there and saw him running away. She surely wanted to know where he lives. Why is it so impossible that she simply followed him? She had the skills
She had the skills to follow him with a platoon of Cops on his tail, dive into the river and follow him again with the Cops there, and then manage to follow him through the maze of sewers?

No, sorry but you're grasping at straws there.

Quote:
Its in the movie. He DOESNT have a proof, thats why hes not taking him in yet. This and he thought of him more as a corrupt politician rather than criminal, until he saw how involved he was in all the situation with Penguin. Seeing that Penguin wanted him most showed implied this
Again, that is not proof of diddly squat. Max's basis for going with Penguin was to spare his son's life. Any good father would have done the same thing. If questioned why Penguin agreed to take him, he could give the obvious answer: because he abandoned Penguin when Gotham turned on him.

Quote:
WOuldnt be nearly as successfull. People actually saw Batman looking down when Princess was falling and an entire crowd saw Batman running into the Batmobile. Otherwise it couldve been anyone in the batmobile
Dude, Batman wouldn't be around to refute it. If he died in the Batmobile then who else are they going to assume was driving it? The Grinch?

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:44 PM   #261
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Surely the way she followed him isnt the most logical, but the idea that she followed him is heavoly implied. And we're talking about Returns here, which is about the same type of surreal movie Edward is, so naturally theres no point in trying to apply rules of regular movies to this one. Its not that type of a movie

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:44 PM   #262
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
LOL

Thanks for making me spit up my vishiswa, but no matter. It was cold anyway
Apologies. I'll buy you a fresh one if we ever meet

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I actually think that is the best answer and does make a tad bit of sense. We do see in that very scene that Selina Kyle is at the mayor meeting and when the people learn of the truth and Penguin runs off stage, we also see Selina Kyle leave around the same time too. It's possible she followed him but like you said, in that crazy twisted way she would have had to swim through the river and follow him through the tunnel to do all of this.
Exactly. With the crowd of people who were right behind Penguin when he jumped in the river, and disappeared under water, there's no way she was able to follow him.

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Old 12-12-2010, 10:56 PM   #263
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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He said he wanted to be there for the anniversary party, where he will dump 20 million on the crowd. He shows up at midnight where the crowd was.

If the common citizens knew where he'd be, how would the Cops not know?
The crowd didnt. We can see the streets are empty when hes coming up, and people hear it and simply walk out on to the streets

Quote:
Even if I bought your logic, there would still be Cops patrolling the City in cars, helicopters etc looking for ANY sign of the mass murderer who's been poisoning their people for weeks. Big parade with blaring music is not going to be hard to spot.
Assuming that there arent any other. The mayor wanted to go through with it, and theres nothing to say that the city wasnt patrolled. But its impossible to overlook even 1/3rd of the city, just like its impossible to monitor at least half o manhattan. Its a huge city with plenty of commotion, and on top of that it was the anniversary day so there was plenty of parties going on

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I'm sorry, but for clarification can you post a screencap of these Cops being there?
OK hold on

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No offense to you personally but I don't buy that. Do you have any proof beyond a hearsay conversation you had a with a friend?
I thought its a common knowledge. You cant hit a small target like a human being directly with long range weapons. Sure, if hed use powerful missiles, they would blast Joker away along with half of the street, but they would never hit Joker directly, only with huge luck and coincidence. But since plenty of people were around, Batman used less powerful missiles and their blast wave wasnt enough to sweep Joker

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Out of frame, out of movie. You can only judge the movie based on what was shown. Something as important as that would have been made a point to be shown.
Sure, but it CAN be explained. Thats how we explain all the things in movies that arent explained. But if its not completely illogical and very possible and plausible, why not?

Quote:
I know he was loved by the public, but that still doesn't sell me on the idea that this whole city of people would be stupid enough to think this poor lonely freak is the best man to run their city.
We have a scene in which everyone reads the papers and seem in love with Penguin. They loved him

Quote:
Arnold had an education, and wealth.
Not political education


Quote:
Why rely on another person when you can get the fame and glory for yourself, without relying on a vicious, unpredictable, nose biting, fish chewing freak?
Im not talking about glory. Im talking about all the black business, deals and decisions he would talk Penguin into doing, which would benefit Shreck but screw the city. This way if something comes up, Penguin could be blamed


Quote:
She had the skills to follow him with a platoon of Cops on his tail, dive into the river and follow him again with the Cops there, and then manage to follow him through the maze of sewers?
See my previous post

Quote:
If questioned why Penguin agreed to take him, he could give the obvious answer: because he abandoned Penguin when Gotham turned on him.
And yet even before that Batan knew that hes closely working with the leader of a dangerous gang. Seeing Penguin getting personal meant that Shreck mustve been involved more than Bruce originally thought

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Dude, Batman wouldn't be around to refute it. If he died in the Batmobile then who else are they going to assume was driving it? The Grinch?
No, just about anybody in the car.And with the plan they had, they made triple sure that people thought its Batman - they saw him looking down from
were the Princess just fell. They saw him fleeding the scene and actually entering the batmobile. And then they saw him wrecking havoc. Just using batmobile would be weak, especially without batman being in it. Hed just show up and people would see its not him driving

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:05 PM   #264
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Re: cops at the parade, youre right, there are none, only in CB adaptation. However check your 2nd and 5th screencap - in quick cuts they look like cops, since even one of them has a cop hat and they wear black leather. The point still stands tho. Its an enormous city, probably even bigger than NYC. Its impossible to surveil it, especially on the anniversary day. Joker didnt say where he will be

Anyway, I see no point in all this. We pretty much know that all Batman films are oozing with plotholes, with probably Begins and Returns having the least of them, so I see n point in that. I agree with some you showed, but heavily disagree with others thinking its trying to hard to make it a plothole in them, while I see problems in different areas of the movie. Still, the point of all this is that theyre all loaded with holes

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:14 PM   #265
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
The crowd didnt. We can see the streets are empty when hes coming up, and people hear it and simply walk out on to the streets
Ummm no, people are out on the streets, hear the music, look around and begin flocking towards it.

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Assuming that there arent any other. The mayor wanted to go through with it, and theres nothing to say that the city wasnt patrolled. But its impossible to overlook even 1/3rd of the city, just like its impossible to monitor at least half o manhattan. Its a huge city with plenty of commotion, and on top of that it was the anniversary day so there was plenty of parties going on
Dude, come on, Batman knew exactly where to go and he's just one man. Vicki and Knox knew where to go, too. Everyone except the Cops seemed to know where it was happening.

I'm calling BS on it.

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OK hold on
Cheers.

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I thought its a common knowledge. You cant hit a small target like a human being directly with long range weapons. Sure, if hed use powerful missiles, they would blast Joker away along with half of the street, but they would never hit Joker directly, only with huge luck and coincidence. But since plenty of people were around, Batman used less powerful missiles and their blast wave wasnt enough to sweep Joker
Ok, first of all the streets were cleared when Batman aimed at the Joker. Second, he did fire some kind of missiles at Joker. Third, the target system was waaaaaaaaaaay too specific to believe that it could not have hit Joker:





Quote:
Sure, but it CAN be explained. Thats how we explain all the things in movies that arent explained. But if its not completely illogical and very possible and plausible, why not?
Because I don't buy that three men walked up those cathedral steps, past Vicki and Joker, and open those big double doors, and we didn't see or hear a thing.

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We have a scene in which everyone reads the papers and seem in love with Penguin. They loved him
I know they loved him. Not disputing that. I am disputing why a whole city would think him the best man to be their Mayor.

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Not political education
LOL, no but a regular education, which is way more than Penguin had growing up in the sewers and in a bent circus. Or are we to believe the Penguin went through schools and nobody noticed?

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Im not talking about glory. Im talking about all the black business, deals and decisions he would talk Penguin into doing, which would benefit Shreck but screw the city. This way if something comes up, Penguin could be blamed
Getting caught is not something that seemed to concern Schreck given his track record of disposing of business partners and secretaries, and his plan for building a power plant that would suck the city's power and somehow nobody would notice lol.

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And yet even before that Batan knew that hes closely working with the leader of a dangerous gang. Seeing Penguin getting personal meant that Shreck mustve been involved more than Bruce originally thought
For the umpteenth time, what proof did Bruce have of this?

Quote:
No, just about anybody in the car.
How? What would make Gotham believe just anyone could be in the Batmobile? Especially when they've seen he puts shields all over it when he parks it somewhere in Gotham.

Quote:
And with the plan they had, they made triple sure that people thought its Batman - they saw him looking down from
were the Princess just fell. They saw him fleeding the scene and actually entering the batmobile. And then they saw him wrecking havoc. Just using batmobile would be weak, especially without batman being in it. Hed just show up and people would see its not him driving
Oh man, what are you talking about? Batman WAS in the Batmobile. They would find his body in it afterward. Not to mention his sudden disappearance after said event would confirm it was him.

A corpse can't defend himself.

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:21 PM   #266
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Re: cops at the parade, youre right, there are none, only in CB adaptation. However check your 2nd and 5th screencap - in quick cuts they look like cops, since even one of them has a cop hat and they wear black leather.



Cops hats have the silver crest, and the jackets don't have silver on the shoulders.

Quote:
Anyway, I see no point in all this. We pretty much know that all Batman films are oozing with plotholes, with probably Begins and Returns having the least of them, so I see n point in that. I agree with some you showed, but heavily disagree with others thinking its trying to hard to make it a plothole in them, while I see problems in different areas of the movie. Still, the point of all this is that theyre all loaded with holes
Fair enough.

Nice chatting with you

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:30 PM   #267
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Ummm no, people are out on the streets, hear the music, look around and begin flocking towards it.
Just like they are every other night. Check the beginning of the movie. Gotham is basically NYC, city that never sleeps, streets are crowded all the time

Quote:
Dude, come on, Batman knew exactly where to go and he's just one man. Vicki and Knox knew where to go, too. Everyone except the Cops seemed to know where it was happening.
And THAT^ is a plothole. I see nothing wrong with cops not finding them right away


Cheers.



Quote:
Ok, first of all the streets were cleared when Batman aimed at the Joker.
Second, he did fire some kind of missiles at Joker.
If he would use the regular ground missiles, you know what kind of damage and explosion that would cause? He would be nuts to use air to ground missiles in a city

Quote:
Third, the target system was waaaaaaaaaaay too specific to believe that it could not have hit Joker:
And youre talking about targeting system. Sure, you could point the monitor to where you want the missiles go, more or less, but you cant control them fully. They DO go where he wanted, just luckily miss one relatively tiny target. Again, a building or a tank can be hit, a person wouldve been harder


Quote:
Because I don't buy that three men walked up those cathedral steps, past Vicki and Joker, and open those big double doors, and we didn't see or hear a thing.
IF they did, they had a big headstart so its plausible that they werent heard and had time to settle in


Quote:
LOL, no but a regular education, which is way more than Penguin had growing up in the sewers and in a bent circus. Or are we to believe the Penguin went through schools and nobody noticed?
Again, we're talking Returns here. A surrealist fairy tale-ish type of story, not a regular movie like all other Batman movies



Quote:
Getting caught is not something that seemed to concern Schreck given his track record of disposing of business partners and secretaries, and his plan for building a power plant that would suck the city's power and somehow nobody would notice lol.
Still, he'd have someone to take the blame for him just in case, someone who could be easily manipulated


Quote:
For the umpteenth time, what proof did Bruce have of this?
He says in the movie. First he feels that theres something up with Penguin. Then through the papers he finds out that the Red Trial circus had a small birdboy. Thats how he knew that Penguin is behind them. And then Shreck, know to be a corrupt businessman is all over him. Easy to add all these together. He has no physical proof, thats why he doesnt put Schreck away


Quote:
How? What would make Gotham believe just anyone could be in the Batmobile? Especially when they've seen he puts shields all over it when he parks it somewhere in Gotham.
I think its pretty easy to believe that someone just stole the car, armored or not, especially since we dont see the driver, rather than assume then suddenly for no reason whatsoever, a guy whose been the city's hero and cleaning up the city as recently as days before decided to go whacko. Not to mention Batman could just show up someplace else or try to stop the batmobile himself. Theres no way just using batmobile is in any way better than using batmobile PLUS let people see/think they see Batman killing the ice princes PLUS seeing batman running from the crime scene and entering batmobile. Thats a solid frame right there

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:32 PM   #268
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by Joker View Post



Cops hats have the silver crest, and the jackets don't have silver on the shoulders.
Sure, but check out those screencaps, in quick, seconds long cuts they look like cops


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Fair enough.

Nice chatting with you
Pleasure on my side as well

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:33 PM   #269
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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He said he wanted to be there for the anniversary party, where he will dump 20 million on the crowd. He shows up at midnight where the crowd was.

If the common citizens knew where he'd be, how would the Cops not know? Even if I bought your logic, there would still be Cops patrolling the City in cars, helicopters etc looking for ANY sign of the mass murderer who's been poisoning their people for weeks. Big parade with blaring music is not going to be hard to spot.
Yeah well who's to say there weren't corrupt FBI agents undercover at the parade. That would explain why you didn't see them, they were in normal street clothes. As far as Gordon, his fat ass was chewing on Donuts with Harvey Dent at the diner down town. There's a reason why Dent isn't in Returns, the mayor fired him and put Gordon on probation, it's in a script that only I have access to. And the other details, Sam Hamm told me. So now we can put this to rest

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Dude, Batman wouldn't be around to refute it. If he died in the Batmobile then who else are they going to assume was driving it? The Grinch?


Seriously, you guys have me rolling with this conversation

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Surely the way she followed him isnt the most logical, but the idea that she followed him is heavoly implied. And we're talking about Returns here, which is about the same type of surreal movie Edward is, so naturally theres no point in trying to apply rules of regular movies to this one. Its not that type of a movie
Just took a small peak and couldnt find it... I really wish I could find the Burton quote in which he addresses certain plot holes in his films and talks about them being fairy tales and similar to stories you tell kids, fictionalized accounts of real life. Just like his film Big Fish. And Edward Scissorhands at it's core is a fable about why it snows. But I've a good 30 Burton interviews saved and another 100 or so listed in the archives of the collectives, no way I could go through them all to find it.

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Old 12-12-2010, 11:48 PM   #270
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Seriously, you guys have me rolling with this conversation

Not nice to spy on other people's conversations

Re: quote, I dont recall any from Burton likening Returns to fairy tale (although plenty of press did), but he did likened it plenty of times to Opera. Still, its pretty apparent that Returns, along with Beetlejuice and Edward is that surreal type of a tale, a Bizzaro World as I call it

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Old 12-13-2010, 12:07 AM   #271
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Not nice to spy on other people's conversations

Re: quote, I dont recall any from Burton likening Returns to fairy tale (although plenty of press did), but he did likened it plenty of times to Opera. Still, its pretty apparent that Returns, along with Beetlejuice and Edward is that surreal type of a tale, a Bizzaro World as I call it
Sorry, got them mixed up. It was Scissorhands he likened to a fairy tale. I think it was returns that he called a grand guignol... in fact I recall B'89 being called the same but BR far more so. And as I said, there are some people who swear BR should be seen as a dream. Actually to not get ot I'll put it in the correct forum thread.

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Old 12-13-2010, 01:24 AM   #272
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I think the main criticism comes from preference, that's all.

Some people tend to find TDK far too realistic and serious.

Some people just prefer the Gothic Expressionist/Film-noir formalistic approach of Tim Burton.

Some people just don't feel the same way about it as TDK lovers.


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Old 12-13-2010, 11:22 AM   #273
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I think the main criticism comes from preference, that's all.

Some people tend to find TDK far too realistic and serious compared to BB but BB was also fairly grounded yet it was also nearly formalistic.

Some people just prefer the Gothic Expressionist/Film-noir formalistic approach of Tim Burton, that is deep beneath the surface while Nolan films are deep on the surface.

Some people just don't feel the same way about it as TDK lovers.
I'm actually one of those people... but that is not a valid criticism, that is merely a preference. I never criticize Nolan's films for being grounded, gritty, and literal. Nolan's films can't be criticized for those things as long as they work well and fit in the universe he established...and they do. We may only choose them as a preference or not.

Quote:
Some people didn't like how Batman's character was handled compared to BB.
The theatricality and deception I felt was missing in TDK, especially compared to Begins. But Batman/Bruce was still handled quite well. I'm wondering what you didn't like?

Quote:
Here's my listing of the approaches taken to the Batman films.

Batman films:

Batman 1989 (formalism)
Batman Returns (formalism)
Batman Begins (classicism, balance between realism and formalism. Not very unrealistic but not very realistic.)
The Dark Knight (realism)
Nice approach

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Old 12-13-2010, 01:41 PM   #274
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Kay...this thread is prefect for me.

I have no idea why this film is " perfect" to all the people..i thought it is pretty alright but kinda boring at the same time. i have watched it for like 3 or 4 times still...nothing changed.
serioulsy...i think there is something wrong with me. i think that film is just OVERRATED.

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Old 12-13-2010, 01:50 PM   #275
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Thumbs up Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Just like they are every other night. Check the beginning of the movie. Gotham is basically NYC, city that never sleeps, streets are crowded all the time
But there's nothing that suggests the movie opens as late as midnight. I don't see a family of tourists going around with a map at midnight.

Quote:
And THAT^ is a plothole. I see nothing wrong with cops not finding them right away


Cheers.
Whey hey, that's one we agree on at least

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If he would use the regular ground missiles, you know what kind of damage and explosion that would cause? He would be nuts to use air to ground missiles in a city
Keaton's Batman is nuts.

Quote:
And youre talking about targeting system. Sure, you could point the monitor to where you want the missiles go, more or less, but you cant control them fully.
It wasn't just missiles. It was bullets and missiles he fired at Joker, and all of them missed.

I feel like this point is getting ridiculous now. You must see the absurdity of this scenario. I feel Tim Burton was making one big joke out of it, because then the Joker pulls out a long barrel gun from his pants and takes down the Batwing with one shot.

It was all so hilarious.

Quote:
IF they did, they had a big headstart so its plausible that they werent heard and had time to settle in
That scenario presents another problem. If they had a big head start that would suggest the Joker pre planned to climb the cathedral way in advance. He only went there as a last minute decision because that's where the Batwing crashed, and he wanted to make a quick exit with Vicki.

Quote:
Again, we're talking Returns here. A surrealist fairy tale-ish type of story, not a regular movie like all other Batman movies
I know. But the topic of conversation is illogical plot points, right?

Quote:
Still, he'd have someone to take the blame for him just in case, someone who could be easily manipulated
With Schreck's intelligence and resources, he could pin it on some sap working for him. But like I said, getting caught never seemed like something that bothered him given his track record.

Quote:
He says in the movie. First he feels that theres something up with Penguin. Then through the papers he finds out that the Red Trial circus had a small birdboy. Thats how he knew that Penguin is behind them. And then Shreck, know to be a corrupt businessman is all over him. Easy to add all these together. He has no physical proof, thats why he doesnt put Schreck away
Yeah mate, I know all of this. That's not my point. He can have all the suspicions he likes, without proof it's not worth diddly squat. Why does Batman say Schreck is going to jail in the climax? Where did his proof for conviction spring from all of a sudden in that he's so certain Max is going to prison?

Quote:
I think its pretty easy to believe that someone just stole the car, armored or not, especially since we dont see the driver, rather than assume then suddenly for no reason whatsoever, a guy whose been the city's hero and cleaning up the city as recently as days before decided to go whacko.
Oh please! This Batman is a killer. He goes around blowing up buildings, and roasting criminals alive with his Batmobile turbine etc. Is really so hard to believe a guy they know nothing about who dresses up as a bat and kills criminals, suddenly snapped one day and began offing innocents?

It's totally plausible.

Quote:
Not to mention Batman could just show up someplace else or try to stop the batmobile himself.
How could he do that if he was trapped inside it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Sure, but check out those screencaps, in quick, seconds long cuts they look like cops
I honestly don't see it

Quote:
Pleasure on my side as well


Don't get me wrong from this conversation, I do love Burton's Batman movies dearly. Warts and all. Batman Returns made me a Batman fan when I was 12 in the summer of '92.

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
Yeah well who's to say there weren't corrupt FBI agents undercover at the parade. That would explain why you didn't see them, they were in normal street clothes.
Who's to say they were not all being mind controlled by aliens either? I can't debate with unfounded what if scenarios. I can only go by what was presented in the movie.

Quote:
As far as Gordon, his fat ass was chewing on Donuts with Harvey Dent at the diner down town. There's a reason why Dent isn't in Returns, the mayor fired him and put Gordon on probation, it's in a script that only I have access to. And the other details, Sam Hamm told me. So now we can put this to rest
Good enough for me

Quote:


Seriously, you guys have me rolling with this conversation
Glad to put a smile on your face

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