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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from?
People who hate Batman. 8 4.57%
People who hate Heath Ledger. 5 2.86%
Purists. 10 5.71%
Burton fans. 20 11.43%
Kids. 4 2.29%
Eyecandy seekers. 1 0.57%
unsophisticatists. 2 1.14%
Hollywood elitists. 6 3.43%
People who think realism is boring. 13 7.43%
People who think itís conservative. (Controversial) 4 2.29%
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. 19 10.86%
It makes people feel special. 39 22.29%
Other. 44 25.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-13-2010, 12:51 PM   #276
Mary Jane Watson
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by thedarks0ldier View Post
Marvel sore losers
Right on. I hate to admit that I am kinda jealous of you guys cuz ( well i am more spider man fan ) spider man got suck-y movies that even not match to spidey's comics at ALL. We havent got any " prefect spider man movie" yet.


Pls excuse for my bad grammar...


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Old 12-13-2010, 12:58 PM   #277
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by ALP View Post

Just more proof that he really does plan every little detail. I am seriously unworthy of the genius that is Christopher Nolan. I really feel awful now.
There are a ton of inconsistencies and plotholes in TDK.

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Not even my criticism works here. So perfectly woven. I think Nolan just may be a god
Ehhhhh, he's a talented director, but far from being " a god".

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Old 12-13-2010, 01:17 PM   #278
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I was only joking travs. But the way Nolan plots a film is amazing, his work is always well planned. There are even a few inconsistencies in something like Memento, you won't really find flawless films anywhere but damn does Nolan know how to weave a tale. Artists like Burton have always been who I like the most but I certainly can acknowledge a brilliant architect.

See, I love Burton but I'm not someone who thinks his films stand up as well as Nolan's does narrative-wise. It's just no comparison. Nolan's films are well woven and socially relevant. His Joker is a terrorist and a entity of anarchy hellbent on proving even the strongest of men can fall to the way side. On the other hand Burton's Joker is a a twisted clown who's major scheme includes throwing a parade with giant drug-laced balloons. Burton's movies aren't literal. Are they really even comparable?

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Oh please! This Batman is a killer. He goes around blowing up buildings, and roasting criminals alive with his Batmobile turbine etc. Is really so hard to believe a guy they know nothing about who dresses up as a bat and kills criminals, suddenly snapped one day and began offing innocents?

It's totally plausible.
I can totally seeing that happening

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Old 12-13-2010, 03:38 PM   #279
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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There are a ton of inconsistencies and plotholes in TDK.
Such as?

(Legitimately asking, btw. I haven't seen anything about this before - not that I've looked very hard.)

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Old 12-13-2010, 09:13 PM   #280
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Such as?

(Legitimately asking, btw. I haven't seen anything about this before - not that I've looked very hard.)
As I said, I wont list them all, but just to give a taste Ill touch upon the first 5 minutes or so.

1. Joker standing in the bright day in makeup not moving, with a bag. No one notices? No one cares
2. Car arrives. They dont see his face even tho they should see the makeup the way they arrived.They dont suspect anything even tho hes not talking.
3. Joker's hair suddenly becomes green just before he takes off the mask although its clearly not until that moment
4. Its impossible for Joker to see the future and time everything that happens exactly to the T, including the extra shootout, so he could perfectly drive off JUST when theres a row of school buses driving by and JUST when the gap between them appeared. Anyone who knows anything about school buses knows they don’t drive behind each other in city traffic with a huge gap between them large enough for another school bus to just jump into the line.
5. A schoolbus covered in dust drives out of the bank. None of the buses in front, or especially - behind him call the cops?
6. Why is it that they were able to crash a school bus through the brick walls of the bank without any damage to the bus?

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Old 12-13-2010, 09:17 PM   #281
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
As I said, I wont list them all, but just to give a taste Ill touch upon the first 5 minutes or so.

1. Joker standing in the bright day in makeup not moving, with a bag. No one notices? No one cares
2. Car arrives. They dont see his face even tho they should see the makeup the way they arrived.They dont suspect anything even tho hes not talking
3. Joker's hair suddenly becomes green just before he takes off the mask although its clearly not until this moment
4. Its impossible for Joker to see the future and time everything that happens exactly to the T, including the extra shootout, so he could perfectly drive off JUST when theres a row of school buses driving by and JUST when the gap between them appeared
5. A schoolbus covered in dust drives out of the bank. None of the buses in front, or especially - behind him call the cops?
1.Yes
2.Yes
3.Yes
4. **** yes, and one of the most annoying traits throughout the entire movie!
5.Yes


I may go over some, but I dunno. I've done this before, and I really don't feel like getting into it......let me think about it.

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Old 12-13-2010, 10:10 PM   #282
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Just a couple more to make the point (which is that every one of Batman movies is loaded with plotholes). Want more, then ask. Theres plenty more where that came from

Lucius Fox doesnt want to help Batman catch a murderer and a terrorists who caused the evacuation of the entire city and has 2 boats rigged because its not nice to spy on people? He just helped Batman in kidnapping and extraditing a foreign national from halfway around the world but was offensed by the idea of saving an entire city by surveiling people with sonar vision just to find this psychopath

Batman leaves a party of billionaires upstairs alone with the Joker to save Rachel Dawes. The Joker was up there searching for Harvey Dent. We never cut back upstairs to find out what happened. Did the Joker just give up and leave? Did Batman even try to go up and catch him? We never find out because it just jumps to the next scene. But it didnt seem like Batman rushed back to save the others or catch Joker

Bruce Wayne is shown as unable to do anything technical without Lucius Fox’s assistance, even to change his costume, yet at the end he miraculously can suddenly singlehandedly use and upgrade the sonar trick Lucius Fox showed him earlier and create a program to somehow make every cell phone in Gotham City broadcast a video signal that he can watch through some space-age lenses that cover his eyes in the Batsuit and are fed through a supercomputer in his secret lair

Gordon and Batman’s plan was to fake Gordon’s death and just transporting Harvey while hoping the Joker would attack…yet when it happened they still seemed totally unprepared for it. Batman may suffer from incredible pride but theres no way he could have planned, forseen or even imagained such a successful scenario as him flipping the Jokers truck, faking his defeat and Gordons reappearance because it all happened just metres away from his vehicle. The Joker needs Dent for phase 2 of this particular plan os his attempt at killing him is self serving. He needs to be caught AND he needs the guy with the phone in his stomach to make it with him otherwise hes got no way to get Lao or the money

Everyone(including Press and Gordon) knew that it was Ramirez who walked with Harvey and sent him in a police car. During the jail Interrogation scene, why no one(including Gordon) asked Ramirez about the whereabouts of Harvey? She should be knowing the who drove Harvey's car.

How come Harvey and Rachel weren't under an ethics investigation? You had a D.A. and an assistant D.A. having a relationship that would have been ready-made for the front pages of the tabloids, and nobody seemed to notice any irregularities there.

how the police could have possibly missed the explosives in the hospital. The explosives were clearly planted throughout the building (as evidenced by the room-by-room explosions) yet the cops who were going room to room and explicitly ordered to search for them, somehow missed them ALL?

Batman is taken down by dogs? This guy can wipe out swat teams or packs of ninjas. Turns out all you really needed was three dogs. Batman ran into those exact same dogs earlier in the film, so he had every reason to research appropriate defense

When the Joker's one phonecall detonates the belly bomb, everyone in the squadroom falls down from the explosion except the Joker and Lao

Batman appears out of the ground in a brightly lit room, surrounded by a crowd that stands in a big distance. Yet he suddenly appears from the floor in the middle of that emptied space

Bruce couldnt know at the party that Joker is coming for Dent now

2 boats stranded with no communication in the middle of an evacuation, yet no one takes notice, not even a coast guard checking up on whats going on

Despite the stunt looking really cool, the flipping of the tractor trailer simply would not have occurred as shown. Assuming Batman does exactly what we see regarding the cable, the truck would have just torn the cable out of the asphalt along with the lamp posts, barely being slowed by them. Ignoring this, if the cable's anchor held firm, the cable would more likely break. Failing that, the truck would simply, abruptly stop. But in no case is it capable of generating the force required to make the trailer rise up and turn with the entire rig over its own front end. Further, the tractor and trailer are not a single, rigid piece as shown. The two pieces would form a "V" while in the flip due to the trailer lagging behind the tractor as it rotates over. Once bent, the hitch would fail and the trailer would drop back on its wheels.

Batman scans a shattered bullet in a wall and finds a fingerprint on it. Firing the bullet would have certainly destroyed the fingerprint, as the bullet would be in contact with the barrel. Part of the fingerprint is seen on an area which would be in direct contact with the barrel. Airflow over the bullet would also more than likely destroy a fingerprint.

The convoy could have easily go around the burning truck, theres a shot showing a big gap that would easily fit the van. Even if they couldnt, they could just go on the opposite way and then go back to the right one, the street was blocked anyway.

Helicopters can never fly between the buildings under no circumstances

How come the helicopter didnt see the burning bright truck from the air and they only noticed that when the van did? From the air the flame at night wouldve been visible like a flare. And how come the van itself didnt see it earlier but just when they were nearly next to it

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Old 12-13-2010, 10:36 PM   #283
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
As I said, I wont list them all, but just to give a taste Ill touch upon the first 5 minutes or so.

1. Joker standing in the bright day in makeup not moving, with a bag. No one notices? No one cares
2. Car arrives. They dont see his face even tho they should see the makeup the way they arrived.They dont suspect anything even tho hes not talking.
3. Joker's hair suddenly becomes green just before he takes off the mask although its clearly not until that moment
4. Its impossible for Joker to see the future and time everything that happens exactly to the T, including the extra shootout, so he could perfectly drive off JUST when theres a row of school buses driving by and JUST when the gap between them appeared. Anyone who knows anything about school buses knows they don’t drive behind each other in city traffic with a huge gap between them large enough for another school bus to just jump into the line.
5. A schoolbus covered in dust drives out of the bank. None of the buses in front, or especially - behind him call the cops?
6. Why is it that they were able to crash a school bus through the brick walls of the bank without any damage to the bus?
1. In a city like Gotham, people are busy, they have things to do. Dress up like a clown in New York and you'll barely get a glance. And he was wearing very normal clothing as well. He had his face down and there was no one around him. Had he been wearing motley, this complaint would make more sense. But that is really not an inconsistency nor a plothole.
2. Those thugs were very dumb guys, but to even give them the benefit their instructions were to pick up a guy on a side street. They see the mask, that is enough confirmation that he is one of them. He didn't need to say anything.

The others are very valid I believe.

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Old 12-13-2010, 10:53 PM   #284
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

criticism off the hype = people who want to feel special

criticism on the hype = purists and Burton fans

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #285
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Batman leaves a party of billionaires upstairs alone with the Joker to save Rachel Dawes. The Joker was up there searching for Harvey Dent. We never cut back upstairs to find out what happened. Did the Joker just give up and leave? Did Batman even try to go up and catch him? We never find out because it just jumps to the next scene. But it didnt seem like Batman rushed back to save the others or catch Joker
Also, how did Bruce know that when The Joker was coming into the penthouse, that he was going for Dent? He never threatened his life until AFTER that. So how did Bruce know all of the sudden to subdue Harvey and hide him?


Quote:
Gordon and Batman’s plan was to fake Gordon’s death and just transporting Harvey while hoping the Joker would attack…yet when it happened they still seemed totally unprepared for it. Batman may suffer from incredible pride but theres no way he could have planned, forseen or even imagained such a successful scenario as him flipping the Jokers truck, faking his defeat and Gordons reappearance because it all happened just metres away from his vehicle. The Joker needs Dent for phase 2 of this particular plan os his attempt at killing him is self serving. He needs to be caught AND he needs the guy with the phone in his stomach to make it with him otherwise hes got no way to get Lao or the money
Also, how did Joker's plan even make sense? Like you said, he was needing a.) to go after Lau, so he needed the bomb-belly guy to show up in the police station to make his escape. Ok, but his other plan b.) was to capture Dent and kidnap him and Rachel, so he can bring them to a warehouse filled with gasoline that is on a TIMED detonator.

His original plan(b) was to get Dent, but then of course, Batman magically knew where Joker and Dents caravan was, so he interjected, was about to kill Batman, but then was caught by a supposedly dead Gordon, who even Batman and Dent didn't know about. How friggin unlikely was this "apart of the plan" to go to jail to get Lau?

Also, once he is in jail, how friggin lucky is it for him to have plan-b work out, that Dent and Rachel get kidnapped with a timer running out, so he can distract the cops, and also know that only one guard would watch an unshackled, psychopathic, cop killing, mass murdering, terrorist, so he can overtake him, get a phone, to blow up the bomb-belly guy that he planted, in-order to kill/injure every cop in the police station, except, miraculously him and Lau. I guess he's omniscient?

Now, maybe one of the plans could be pulled off, but having both work in his favor when everything was against him, and having it be timed perfectly with a timed-detonator explosive, and a bomb-belly guy, while surviving and making it out, is incomprehensible.

Quote:
how the police could have possibly missed the explosives in the hospital. The explosives were clearly planted throughout the building (as evidenced by the room-by-room explosions) yet the cops who were going room to room and explicitly ordered to search for them, somehow missed them ALL?
Also, not only did the cops miss the explosive while looking for them, but they missed them while being installed. You see, The Joker can get enough explosives in the hospital that he KNEW Dent would be in. That's either the luckiest guess on Jokers part to know that, or it was just blind luck that Dent happened to be in the same hospital that they rigged to explode. I hear people wondering about the explosives in the ferries, but I think a much more populated and secure location like a hospital would be harder to get enough explosives in. Either way, kinda nuts.


Quote:
When the Joker's one phonecall detonates the belly bomb, everyone in the squadroom falls down from the explosion except the Joker and Lao
Of course, it was "all part of the plan".


Quote:
Batman scans a shattered bullet in a wall and finds a fingerprint on it. Firing the bullet would have certainly destroyed the fingerprint, as the bullet would be in contact with the barrel. Part of the fingerprint is seen on an area which would be in direct contact with the barrel. Airflow over the bullet would also more than likely destroy a fingerprint.
Not only that, but how did they get a fingerprint from a digital reconstruction?

A few more:

How did The Joker know where the funeral would be held, and also, how lucky was it for him to have a person in his gang that lived in an apartment right above the funeral? Not only that, but how did he know the exact time of everything for the funeral, to place a timer next to a window, which was synchronized for the 21 gun salute, to make a distraction for the sniper, so he could make the assassination attempt? Also, how did he know none of the snipers would shoot at him, once they found out where the shot was from? And how did he know that the majority of trained police officers armed with guns would all drop them, and run like little girls, to make a clean getaway?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ALP
1. In a city like Gotham, people are busy, they have things to do. Dress up like a clown in New York and you'll barely get a glance. And he was wearing very normal clothing as well. He had his face down and there was no one around him. Had he been wearing motley, this complaint would make more sense. But that is really not an inconsistency nor a plothole.
It's not only the gang that didn't notice a guy with make-up, who looks exactly like The Joker, you know, the very guy they were just talking about(should explain #2), but neither did any civilian or police officer.

You see, at the end of BB, Gordon is talking about The Joker, and the police are well aware of him. I'm also sure a cop-killing, bank robbing, terrorist who dresses like a clown would be known through TV and newspapers. By the time TDK starts, people and cops would be well aware of that, and people would be on the look out for a "suspicious looking clown".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123
criticism on the hype = purists and Burton fans
Ahhhh, but criticizing a Burton Bat-flick is A.O.K.? It's ok for Joker(SHH member) to criticize B89, but once TDK talk comes out, it's "not cool anymore"?

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:13 PM   #286
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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1. In a city like Gotham, people are busy, they have things to do. Dress up like a clown in New York and you'll barely get a glance. And he was wearing very normal clothing as well. He had his face down and there was no one around him.
Its a guy in makeup standing like a statue on the corner. Im in Manhattan almost every week and there are plenty of weirdos there - people singing to themsleves, people walking in a suit with a briefcase with a cat sitting on their heads (!) and no one gives a crap except for tourists. Sure. But im telling you, even makeup or masks aside - an unmoving, standing person wth his head down would get noticed because hes the only one not in a rush of the city and people immediately think hes up to something. Especially when he has a bag with him. And they usually are (up to something or disturbed individuals). Perhaps thats the thing I noticed because of NYC lifestyle Im in contact with quite often

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:18 PM   #287
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It's not only the gang that didn't notice a guy with make-up, who looks exactly like The Joker, you know, the very guy they were just talking about(should explain #2), but neither did any civilian or police officer.

You see, at the end of BB, Gordon is talking about The Joker, and the police are well aware of him. I'm also sure a cop-killing, bank robbing, terrorist who dresses like a clown would be known through TV and newspapers. By the time TDK starts, people and cops would be well aware of that, and people would be on the look out for a "suspicious looking clown".
I admit I fully forgot about the fact that Joker was a wanted man and well known by the time TDK started. That's what tripped me. But the way the guys were talking it's like they weren't familiar with him. One of the thugs was explaining that the Joker wears facepaint as if the others did not know this(or didnt know what he looked like).

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Its a guy in makeup standing like a statue on the corner. Im in Manhattan almost every week and there are plenty of weirdos there - people singing to themsleves, people walking in a suit with a briefcase with a cat sitting on their heads (!) and no one gives a crap except for tourists. Sure. But im telling you, even makeup or masks aside - an unmoving, standing person wth his head down would get noticed because hes the only one not in a rush of the city and people immediately think hes up to something. Especially when he has a bag with him. And they usually are (up to something or disturbed individuals). Perhaps thats the thing I noticed because of NYC lifestyle Im in contact with quite often
I digress then!

Maybe anyone that noticed was too afraid to do anything. Would you have confronted him?

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:26 PM   #288
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I digress then!

Maybe anyone that noticed was too afraid to do anything. Would you have confronted him?
Hehe no way! I dont think anyone would either. Im just saying that someone would take notice and call cops, people always do

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:52 PM   #289
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Well I just got done reading over your other post(and Travs)... I definitely see the hokey nature of Joker's schemes always coming together so perfectly, a little too coincidental. But well I'm certainly not the man to refute them. My efforts are always futile.Guess i'm up

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Old 12-14-2010, 12:19 AM   #290
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Well I just got done reading over your other post(and Travs)... I definitely see the hokey nature of Joker's schemes always coming together so perfectly, a little too coincidental. But well I'm certainly not the man to refute them. My efforts are always futile.Guess i'm up
For me, pointing these out gets into some crazy debates. I remember one time I brought up the bus scene, and was refuted, by saying the other buses were The Joker's goons. I then point out that it's kids, cause a.) you can hear and see them, but b.) it's in the script that it's "kids who pour out of school and get in the line of other buses". It's just crazy that The Joker falls perfectly in a tight-nit line of other buses, with a perfect enough space, for his bus that just crashed from the bank with a deranged clown driving, and cops rushing towards them.

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Old 12-14-2010, 12:23 AM   #291
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Well I just got done reading over your other post(and Travs)... I definitely see the hokey nature of Joker's schemes always coming together so perfectly, a little too coincidental. But well I'm certainly not the man to refute them. My efforts are always futile.Guess i'm up
I could refute some of those I listed myself, but like with the B89 debate, its all just making stuff up to patch up the holes. Some can be patched, some cant. But its still fanon. Thats why I like Novelizations and CB adaptations because the writers sometimes notice those and give an extra explanation for them, like in some of the examples Ive shown about B89

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Old 12-14-2010, 01:50 AM   #292
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:36 AM   #293
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I'll attempt to resolve these mysteries for you if I can, james. I've got the DVD playing in a window next to this to investigate as I reply.

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1. Joker standing in the bright day in makeup not moving, with a bag. No one notices? No one cares
Well, they don't really have a reason to care at this point in the film. It's some guy in clown make-up (presumably he has the make-up on at this point). No big deal.

The only people who would look at him twice would be cops specifically in the know, like Gordon. He hadn't become enough of a threat for anyone in the city to freak out at the sight of.

We also have no idea how long he was standing there to even get noticed, and no one was even close to him or looking his direction, so yeah. Calling that a plot hole is kind of a reach.

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2. Car arrives. They dont see his face.
The idea is just what you said, that they simply didn't see his face. Just because something isn't elaborately spelled out doesn't mean there's a plot hole there. Some things in films are implied. Or obvious.

Most importantly, however, is that the guys in the car don't even mention the make-up. It's the guys on the roof who heard a rumor about it. It's not suggested whether or not the guys that pick him up know it. They just know about his reputation.

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even tho they should see the makeup the way they arrived.
I disagree:



He's facing forward down that street in the screencap there, they pull in forward from behind him, and then turn right a little bit around the corner he's standing at, as he's putting the mask on. The chance that they all whipped their heads around 180 degrees to get a good look at his face before he did so is pretty unlikely - especially considering how fast they whipped the truck in.

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They dont suspect anything even tho hes not talking.
He's an anonymous hired goon to them, which is also what they are, do you really think they give a damn? They're just gossiping and following the plans assigned to them. Also don't forget that they've all been told to kill each other, so socializing isn't exactly a necessity.

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3. Joker's hair suddenly becomes green just before he takes off the mask although its clearly not until that moment
This is true. Not really a plot hole though. That's like saying the fact that Michael Keaton doesn't have black make-up around his eyes when he removes his mask for Selina is a plot hole. Really has nothing to do with the plot.

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4. Its impossible for Joker to see the future and time everything that happens exactly to the T, including the extra shootout, so he could perfectly drive off JUST when theres a row of school buses driving by and JUST when the gap between them appeared.
It's a little absurd to imagine someone could be that impeccably calculative, but what he did in that scene is not 'impossible'.

Not only that, but Joker's a 'heightened reality' kind of character.

Take into account that that's what these movies are intended to be, from Nolan's own mouth: heightened reality. When judging something for it's consistency, you must do so in context with it's intentions.

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Anyone who knows anything about school buses knows they don’t drive behind each other in city traffic with a huge gap between them large enough for another school bus to just jump into the line.
Well, I'd wager not many people even think about that. I certainly don't (though, I probably will now ). Further, that sort of school bus activity isn't THAT suspicious. You're overestimating the average public's awareness of/concern about this sort of thing. Especially since this is Gotham City we're talking about here.

Assuming anyone would care about that is fanfiction, really.

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5. A schoolbus covered in dust drives out of the bank. None of the buses in front, or especially - behind him call the cops?
Well, first of all, the cops were already driving right past them.

But you don't think he organized those bus drivers to be there like that just on time? It's part of the exaggerated calculative nature of the character, not really a stretch to expect such a thing of him.

It's not explained, but it seems heavily suggested given that the buses, as you said, are spaced perfectly apart for his bus to pull in EXACTLY when he pulls out of the bank. At least one of the other bus drivers had to be in the know (the necessary one being the one behind him).

I also don't see why you're convinced that the other bus drivers would even notice, assuming they weren't also part of the plan.

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6. Why is it that they were able to crash a school bus through the brick walls of the bank without any damage to the bus?
They didn't. It crashed through glass doors. Looks (and sounds) like they were framed with wood and maybe brass.

- I just realized there have been a lot of replies to your plot hole posts, so I'll catch up with your second list once I make sure it's not already been talked out.

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Old 12-14-2010, 10:54 AM   #294
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This is true. Not really a plot hole though. That's like saying the fact that Michael Keaton doesn't have black make-up around his eyes when he removes his mask for Selina is a plot hole. Really has nothing to do with the plot.
No, but it's an inconsistency, which is what was originally asked from you(ie. inconsistencies and plot-holes).


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It's a little absurd to imagine someone could be that impeccably calculative, but what he did in that scene is not 'impossible'.

Not only that, but Joker's a 'heightened reality' kind of character.

Take into account that that's what these movies are intended to be, from Nolan's own mouth: heightened reality. When judging something for it's consistency, you must do so in context with it's intentions.
But this was kinda the point, which was to mention the inconsistencies and plot-holes in the movie. And of course The Joker is a "heightened reality character", but to play devils-advocate here, why is it fine to mention the absurdity of Batman unable to shoot down The Joker in B89, or how The Joker took down The Batwing with one shot, but the second someone talks about how ridiculously convoluted and impossible the bank heist is, people say you're crazy.


Everything else I disagree with, especially the school buses.

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Old 12-14-2010, 10:58 AM   #295
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But im telling you, even makeup or masks aside - an unmoving, standing person wth his head down would get noticed because hes the only one not in a rush of the city and people immediately think hes up to something. Especially when he has a bag with him.
That's not necessarily true. I spent some time in Manhattan as well, and passed people like that in the street. They were typically just waiting on a cab, bus, etcetera, with their luggage. Or sometimes they were homeless people or crackheads and kept their meager few possessions in said hypothetical bag (or more often a shopping cart or, disturbingly, a baby stroller).

Either way, as far as we know, Joker is just beginning to blip on the radar to the police at this point, probably not at all to the general public. Batman doesn't even consider him a very big threat, remember?

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For me, pointing these out gets into some crazy debates. I remember one time I brought up the bus scene, and was refuted, by saying the other buses were The Joker's goons. I then point out that it's kids, cause a.) you can hear and see them, but b.) it's in the script that it's "kids who pour out of school and get in the line of other buses".
The bus drivers could still be Joker's goons while pretending to be, you know, real bus drivers that really drive kids around. Having kids actually in the bus is a much wiser cover than not.

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:03 AM   #296
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No, but it's an inconsistency, which is what was originally asked from you(ie. inconsistencies and plot-holes).
Fair enough. I forgot I had asked for more than just plot holes specifically.

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But this was kinda the point, which was to mention the inconsistencies and plot-holes in the movie. And of course The Joker is a "heightened reality character", ...
So how is that inconsistent with his heightened reality nature?

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... but to play devils-advocate here, why is it fine to mention the absurdity of Batman unable to shoot down The Joker in B89, or how The Joker took down The Batwing with one shot, but the second someone talks about how ridiculously convoluted and impossible the bank heist is, people say you're crazy.
I don't recall saying that was fine. Or calling anyone crazy.

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Everything else I disagree with, especially the school buses.
Well, I'd certainly like to hear why. Same with the alleged impossibility of the bank heist.

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:04 AM   #297
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Great posts, RustyCage. Agree with just about everything you said

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:11 AM   #298
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I don't recall saying that was fine. Or calling anyone crazy.
I wasn't implying you, I was just speaking in generalizations.


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Well, I'd certainly like to hear why. Same with the alleged impossibility of the bank heist.
I've already posted.

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:16 AM   #299
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I've already posted.
Oh! Alright, let me get to those bigger posts now then. It might take me a while to post back, girlfriend will be home soon.

And yeah, don't get the idea that because I'm defending the bank heist bit that I think you're crazy or am anti-Burton or something. No hard feelings, naturally. We are on each others' friends lists after all.

All I ask is that you acknowledge my replies about the bus thing, since you said you disagreed with all of it. I mean, it definitely didn't crash through bricks for example. It was that big glass entrance.

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Great posts, RustyCage. Agree with just about everything you said
Thanks, man. We seem to agree with each other a lot more than I thought we would. I remember butting heads with you about Maggie VS Katie!

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:23 AM   #300
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The bus drivers could still be Joker's goons while pretending to be, you know, real bus drivers that really drive kids around. Having kids actually in the bus is a much wiser cover than not.
That's kinda silly to say, cause that was never implied or a given. Going back to B89, it would be like saying Batman's targets were meant for larger objects, which is why he couldn't shoot The Joker, or that Joker already had a plan of escaping to the cathedral, so he already had goons up there, or The Jokers guys bribed all the cops, which is why no cops were at the parade, etc. Sure, you can try to explain these by saying that, but within the context of the movie, and also what was implied, that was never the case, because these things just "magically" happened.

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And yeah, don't get the idea that because I'm defending the bank heist bit that I think you're crazy or am anti-Burton or something. No hard feelings, naturally. We are on each others' friends lists after all.
I know this, and I'm not trying to come of rude or anything. I can mostly answer or defend anything about TDK, so ask away.

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All I ask is that you acknowledge my replies about the bus thing, since you said you disagreed with all of it. I mean, it definitely didn't crash through bricks for example. It was that big glass entrance.
No, you're right, and I never meant to say it was a brick wall(that wasn't me who said that, by the way), just that it was a part of the bank. Sure, it wasn't bricks, but it still made an obvious hole in the wall.


Anyways, I may be back in a little bit. My battery died on my car, and I'm trying to find someone to jump my car, so I can get a new one.

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