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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from?
People who hate Batman. 8 4.57%
People who hate Heath Ledger. 5 2.86%
Purists. 10 5.71%
Burton fans. 20 11.43%
Kids. 4 2.29%
Eyecandy seekers. 1 0.57%
unsophisticatists. 2 1.14%
Hollywood elitists. 6 3.43%
People who think realism is boring. 13 7.43%
People who think it’s conservative. (Controversial) 4 2.29%
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. 19 10.86%
It makes people feel special. 39 22.29%
Other. 44 25.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:34 AM   #301
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Rusty, I disagree with plenty of your points (Ccheck when the car pulls over, not when Joker comes in, and Joker had just few goons in the beginning of the movie etc etc), but theres no point in dwelling it. I didnt even name half of the problems with the movie, but theres no need to. The point is, the movie has plenty of factual errors, plotholes , questionable moves and inconsistencies, some of them listed in the thread. No biggie, all of the movies has, and few of them were mentioned from older movies in the previous page. Like I said, they can be refuted with fanon, but theyre still what they are. Still, for most people, including myself, it has no difference on how I enjoy Burton and Nolan's movies at all. Love em and those things never get in the way of my enjoyment. The whole thing started when someone in this thread whose name I dont remember and I dont want to point fingers, said that he doestn like older movies than TDK because they have plotholes. Well, thats a very unfair assesment because its no secret all of themn do, probably the same amount, just some movies mask them well with one element or another. I think BB and BR are more free of them than the others

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:37 AM   #302
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

It mainly comes from jealous fanboys who can't handle it's extreme popularity. It raised the bar for comic book movies.

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Old 12-14-2010, 02:56 PM   #303
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
(Ccheck when the car pulls over, not when Joker comes in, and Joker had just few goons in the beginning of the movie etc etc)
... I don't understand what you're saying here. Could you rephrase? Sorry.

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But theres no point in dwelling it.
Well, I quite enjoy analyzing these things and figuring out just how inconsistent they are, or if the inconsistency is even there at all. Sometimes it even helps me appreciate messages of the films I'm investigating - like the element of trust in TDK. That was the point for me, but I understand if you'd rather not blubber back and forth about it, it gets quite extensive.

I had actually typed up a bunch of replies to your other points, even agreeing that some things were simply inconsistent, although I feel like you misunderstood Lucius toward the end, but oh well. I'm going to respect your feelings and not bombard you with it.

I am curious about what you were saying above though.

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Still, for most people, including myself, it has no difference on how I enjoy Burton and Nolan's movies at all. Love em and those things never get in the way of my enjoyment.

Nice. That's all that matters really.

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The whole thing started when someone in this thread whose name I dont remember and I dont want to point fingers, said that he doestn like older movies than TDK because they have plotholes. Well, thats a very unfair assesment because its no secret all of themn do, probably the same amount, just some movies mask them well with one element or another. I think BB and BR are more free of them than the others
Ohhhh, I see. Well, that puts me on your side.

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Old 12-15-2010, 07:28 AM   #304
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
criticism off the hype = people who want to feel special
Eh, no one feels special by bashing TDK or Nolan.

People are much happier and full of pleasure when they bash Schumacher.

However, Schumacher deserves to be bashed, because Nolan and Burton are obviously 100x better than that hack.

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criticism on the hype = purists and Burton fans
Huh???

You don't always have to be a purist or Burton fan to bash TDK or Nolan.

I have had it with this whole Nolanite Vs. Burtonite debate.

Half of the fanbase are Nolanites.

Half of the fanbase are Burtonites.

Nolan's Batman films are dark.

Burton's Batman films are dark.

Burton and Nolan are both brilliant visionary directors, just different vision.

Burton was faithful and unfaithful to the comics.

Nolan was faithful and unfaithful to the comics.

Both Nolan and Burton have made two Batman films with quality.

Both Nolan and Burton's Batman films have their share of plot-holes/flaws.

The question is who's better??? Well, it's all up to you to decide your preference but you can't say one is better than the other like it's fact because both are great, it's a matter of your own preference.

"I'm f'ing done with this Nolanite/Burtonite war, professionally" -- my own take on the Christian Bale rant quote

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Old 12-15-2010, 08:20 AM   #305
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

^ Unfortunately, there are people who bash either side so they can feel 'special'. Just as with anything else that's popular in the world.

I agree with your Nolan VS Burton feelings.

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Old 12-15-2010, 01:53 PM   #306
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Heh, I forgot about this thread. The poll is still hilarious.

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Old 12-16-2010, 01:17 AM   #307
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Well, I quite enjoy analyzing these things and figuring out just how inconsistent they are, or if the inconsistency is even there at all. Sometimes it even helps me appreciate messages of the films I'm investigating - like the element of trust in TDK. That was the point for me, but I understand if you'd rather not blubber back and forth about it, it gets quite extensive.
Well I just never like to discuss the plothole of the movies I like because Im more inclined to see them/think about them the next time I watch the movie. Im always trying to ignore them and Im usually sucessfull, but when I dwell on it Im just afraid it may ruin my future viewings

And I also fully agree with returntovoid about this competition

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Old 12-19-2010, 02:19 AM   #308
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by Fudgie View Post
It mainly comes from jealous fanboys who can't handle it's extreme popularity.
Nope, not preferring it or liking it has nothing to do with insecurity. It's not like those fans are directors of other comic book films themselves, why should they get insecure when they're just the fanboy viewers???

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It raised the bar for comic book movies.
That's debatable because there are many other comics book films that have already raised the bar before it, it's just that now everyone is aware of the bar being raised for these films because of TDK's popularity.

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Old 12-19-2010, 05:45 AM   #309
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

It did raise the bar, or at least it should have. But only in the sense that comic book movies should be made to the standards of other, more 'serious' movies. There are a lot of things about it that make it 'lacking' as a comic book movie, but that's another thread.

I love this thread because it really highlights the superiority some Nolan fanboys feel over others.

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Old 12-19-2010, 11:05 AM   #310
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by returntovoid View Post
That's debatable because there are many other comics book films that have already raised the bar before it
I only really count two comic book movies pre TDK that the majority of fans really held in the kind of raised the bar high esteem and that's X-Men 2 and Spider-Man 2. Spider-Man 2 in particular, most fans still didn't think it's crown had been stolen when Batman Begins came out.

It's only now with TDK have people stopped referring to it as the best comic book movie ever. It also did manage to top SM-2 critically and financially.

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it's just that now everyone is aware of the bar being raised for these films because of TDK's popularity.
Well yeah, how else do you know if the bar has been raised if there's not a big positive response from people?

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Old 12-20-2010, 06:23 AM   #311
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Then theres of course Batman 89 which was the first one that depicted prostitutes, visible violence with bloody open wounds (Napier's cheeks, Alicia's face), serious approach to the character whose parents are shown murdered, the hero as a psychopath and on and on. It showed that comic book movies dont have to be low budget spandex movies for kiddies. Heres a good read about that - http://www.emanuellevy.com/search/details.cfm?id=256

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Old 12-20-2010, 07:37 AM   #312
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Then theres of course Batman 89 which was the first one that depicted prostitutes, visible violence with bloody open wounds (Napier's cheeks, Alicia's face), serious approach to the character whose parents are shown murdered, the hero as a psychopath and on and on. It showed that comic book movies dont have to be low budget spandex movies for kiddies. Heres a good read about that - http://www.emanuellevy.com/search/details.cfm?id=256
Exactly, it's a shame that even Batman fans don't recognise this film for what it did for comic book movies. There would be no TDK today, I can tell you that.

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Old 12-20-2010, 09:59 AM   #313
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I thought Donner's Superman was the first serious approach to a superhero. After Batman '89 no superhero really got any kind of serious treatment until X-Men in 2000.

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Old 12-20-2010, 10:30 AM   #314
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I'd say the Rocketeer was fairly serious(of course he didn't get a franchise). As did Spawn and Blade before the X-dudes showed up.

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Old 12-20-2010, 10:35 AM   #315
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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As did Spawn and Blade before the X-dudes showed up.
Oh yeah, I forgot about them. Probably because they come across more as horror flicks, and were released like 8 years later after Batman '89.

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Old 12-20-2010, 10:36 AM   #316
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I'd say the Rocketeer was fairly serious(of course he didn't get a franchise). As did Spawn and Blade before the X-dudes showed up.
You also forgot The Crow. And while I'll agree that Spawn was a fairly serious movie, it really was a disappointment, and didn't really raise any bars. But Rocketeer and Blade are good ones.

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Old 12-20-2010, 10:41 AM   #317
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

I agree, I was just correcting about the' no serious treatment until X-men' comment.

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Old 12-20-2010, 12:12 PM   #318
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I thought Donner's Superman was the first serious approach to a superhero. After Batman '89 no superhero really got any kind of serious treatment until X-Men in 2000.
It is, and it's the reason Batman was able to be made.

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Old 12-20-2010, 12:17 PM   #319
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Yeah, Donner's Superman did it first but then Batman '89 took it to another level.

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Old 12-20-2010, 01:22 PM   #320
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Yeah, Donner's Superman did it first but then Batman '89 took it to another level.
Absolutely.

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Old 12-20-2010, 09:17 PM   #321
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I'd say the Rocketeer was fairly serious(of course he didn't get a franchise). As did Spawn and Blade before the X-dudes showed up.
And also Punisher with Dolph Lundgren

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:41 PM   #322
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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I thought Donner's Superman was the first serious approach to a superhero.
Donner's Superman, I think raised more of quality, budget, story/origin and that it's not some joke that adults believe comics to be. After all, Batman is a darker/serious and expressive character than Superman.

So it's not hard to believe that Batman 1989/Batman Returns raised the seriousness/darkness, maturity, expressive artistic visuals and told story from visuals along with dialogue etc.

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:45 PM   #323
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Originally Posted by jamesCameronOnl View Post
Then theres of course Batman 89 which was the first one that depicted prostitutes, visible violence with bloody open wounds (Napier's cheeks, Alicia's face), serious approach to the character whose parents are shown murdered, the hero as a psychopath and on and on. It showed that comic book movies dont have to be low budget spandex movies for kiddies. Heres a good read about that - http://www.emanuellevy.com/search/details.cfm?id=256
Thanks for posting that brilliant article, I have never read it before.

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:45 AM   #324
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Thanks for posting that brilliant article, I have never read it before.

Written by a New York Times writer, good stuff

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Old 12-21-2010, 03:29 AM   #325
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Superman '78 is the trend setter. Batman '89 was just riding on its coat tails.

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