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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from? | |||
People who hate Batman. |
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8 | 4.55% |
People who hate Heath Ledger. |
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5 | 2.84% |
Purists. |
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10 | 5.68% |
Burton fans. |
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20 | 11.36% |
Kids. |
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4 | 2.27% |
Eyecandy seekers. |
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1 | 0.57% |
unsophisticatists. |
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2 | 1.14% |
Hollywood elitists. |
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6 | 3.41% |
People who think realism is boring. |
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13 | 7.39% |
People who think it’s conservative. (Controversial) |
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4 | 2.27% |
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. |
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19 | 10.80% |
It makes people feel special. |
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40 | 22.73% |
Other. |
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44 | 25.00% |
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll |
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#501 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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And all because Gordon makes a speech about Batman being the hero Gotham deserves, does not mean the entire film explored that concept. |
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#502 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
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It didnt have the level of Seven or Silence of the Lambs of course, but it was aiming for something in the same ballpark. Joker's plans were unpredictable and he kept escaping , winning and outwitting Batman and everyone else time after time. He had everyone dancing how he wanted to
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#503 |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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No. Most films have some semblance of intricacy. But when you flat-out say a film had an intricate plot, you are implying that it had intricacy to a much larger extent than most other films.
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#504 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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It was aiming for those films, but failed by making Joker unrealistically brilliant and invincible. So all his plans all went to perfection, including loading two ships with tons of explosives without authorities noticing? And another bit of inconsistency. Joker says he's like a dog chasing cars, that he doesn't really have a plan. Then how come he can execute such large-scale plans? Is he focused and dedicated or just mad and random? |
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#505 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,789
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Here I agree. I never found TDK realistic at all, I always saw it as a superhero movie which was obviously a superhero movie. Theres too much comic booky plot elements and situations for normal situations or real situations in any way. But theres nothing wrong with that imo, although many TDK fans get really worked up over the whole realism thing. I dont, it means nothing to me (and its not there anyway)
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#506 |
#feminsim
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Your Mom's House
Posts: 22,193
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That was just Joker lying to Dent, by corrupting him even more. Trust me, Joker's plan was completely random and contrived in ever sense of the word, but in this particular scene, it should be obvious that he was just messin with Dents head.
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#507 |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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Why would that be messing with Dent? Furthermore, with relation to that scene, why on earth would Dent not want to kill the very man that killed his girlfriend???? Oh, because he said it was nothing personal? Ha.
Problem is this. Nolan tried to make a very realistic film, once you do that, you have to cmopare it to other realistic films and when you do, it comes up short. It does not feel like a superhero film, because it's not made in that sense. Yes, you have the sonar device, but it goes further to make the film lopsided. Are you trying to be real? Or trying to be a comic book? |
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#508 | |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,911
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"You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you? No, you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey. I took Gotham's white Knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. Madness as you know is like gravity. All it takes is a little push"
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#509 |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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Still don't buy it. I get where Harvey tosses it for people who have nothing to do with him. But why would care about the coin toss when THIS IS THE MAN THAT CAUSED IT ALL.
Oh and, if he tossed the coin in the end, that meant that Joker did not really bring him down to any level. If it had landed the other way, he would have killed Joker. So.... |
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#510 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,911
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![]() Wurtz was the one who delivered Harvey to the Joker's men. Ramirez was the one who got Rachel. They both were directly involved, both betrayed them, and they both got a coin toss. It's like in The Long Halloween, when Harvey escapes from the hospital, goes and kills Carmine Falcone for arranging for Maroni to have the acid tossed in his face, and Vernon Fields, Harvey's assistant, who was working for Falcone and gave Maroni the acid to use. Both of their deaths were decided with a coin toss. Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#511 | ||
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,844
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Correct.
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#512 |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I've not read Long Halloween in a while, so I won't bring that into it. But going by the film solely and how, just in Begins, a character's motives are explained. Not for Joker, because just like Burton's Batman, he just is and we have to deduct how he came that way.
But we have the transition of Dent to Two Face, just like Wayne to Batman. So, I just do not get why, based off what Joker says (the guy who admits responsibility for killing Rachel) Dent now takes a coin to toss up whether he lives or dies. Why? Why would this White Knight suddenly turn insane to the point of having to flip a coin? I mean, his face got scarred, will that automatically make you mad? Especially a man that was as normal and good as Dent? |
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#513 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,789
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The death or Rachel made him mad, plus he already had a dark side inside of him hidden. It just got loose when he snapped when Rachel was killed
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#514 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Pretty much. I mean he abducted a suspect in an ambulance, brought him to an alleyway, tied him up, and terrorized him with a gun because Rachel's life had been brought under threat.
Even before Joker visits him, you can tell he's close to snapping in the scene with when Gordon visits him: Dent: "Remember that name you all had for me when I was in Internal Affairs. What was it, Gordon?" Gordon: "Harvey I..." Dent: "Say it.....SAY IT!!!!!" Gordon: "Two Face....Harvey Two Face" Dent: "Why should I hide who I am?! Gordon: "I know you tried to warn me. I'm sorry. Wurtz picked you up. Was he working for them? Do you know who picked up Rachel? Harvey, I need to know which of my men I can trust" Dent: "Why would you listen to me now?" Gordon: "I'm sorry, Harvey" Dent: "No! No, you're not. Not yet"
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#515 |
Banned User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 384
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I mean, to me, there was no indication of a mad man or man with something hidden from Eckhart's portrayal. He was promoted as the White Knight and the good guy, who turned bad.
Adbucting a guy is not proof that you have something hidden. It just shows a DA that's willing to bend the rules and go out of his way to get answers, in order to get the truth. Also, Rachel was not exactly his wife, just a girlfriend. So, how would the death of her make him mad. And following on from my previous point, he did nothing to show or suggest that this guy could have a hidden dark side. |
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#516 |
Banned User
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I thought the change was fine, made sense. Just kind of abrupt how Two-Face was inserted and concluded. I think originally Two-Face was going to be saved for the third installment, and would've been a major villain. I would've preferred that. Two-Face deserves his own movie as the villain, and I thought Nolan reduced him to more or less a one-note character. He just went and got revenge on a few people who screwed him over, rather than projecting his problems onto Gotham at large, which would've been more interesting.
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#517 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Or he just happen to have that kind of character inside of him. Plus, a little fiction in the mix that doesn't hurt. Dent used the coin before the scarring. And it's clear that he got that justice can't be brought by men for men are ciorruptible and flawed. So the coin is the way he can find justice. Cold, emotionless justice by a cold, emotionless coin. |
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#518 | |||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
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He clearly wasn't the full quid. Couple that with actually losing Rachel, being betrayed by Gordon's men, and suffering extreme facial scarring, and you can't buy why he would snap and go and kill those he believed wronged him? How many people do you know of who have gone off the deep end because they lost someone they cared about? You hear about it all the time. People have committed suicide over losing a loved one, even when they still have other loved ones to live for. Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-11-2011 at 10:20 AM. |
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#519 |
Banned User
Join Date: Apr 2006
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This is actually one problem I have with many incarnations of Batman, or at least I get the impression sometimes people make the case that Batman is just a regular dude, and that anyone would/could become him. I don't feel that way. I feel like Batman is a cosmic coincidence of sorts. He had all the wrong (or right) stuff happen. The death of his parents is greatly important to his development, but I think it's equally important to make the case that he is, by nature, an extraordinarily rare individual. Just the right combination of intelligence, emotionally immaturity and natural ability/resources to become what he became.
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#520 | ||
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I like the way that Batman Begins handled his origin. They justified his vigilantism by portraying Gotham as a corrupt hellhole where the police do business with the crooks they are supposed to put in prison and the law is broken at an institutional level. At first, he doesn't think of crime-fighting, he just wants revenge against Joe Chill. When his opportunity is taken from him, he then makes his journey to save his city. It made him feel a little more relatable in that respect.
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#521 | |
Upstart
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#522 | ||
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Last edited by Optimus_Prime_; 04-11-2011 at 10:53 AM. |
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#523 | ||
Deadpan Snarker
Join Date: Jun 2009
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#524 | |
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I would've cut it down to it's essentials. Joe Chill is getting released, (a preferably younger) Bruce goes to kill him, and instead Joe Chill is killed a la Lee Harvey Oswald. Then maybe the movie hints in the bar scene that Joe Chill's death was because of some corrupt influence Carmine had over the Justice System. It would've in essence been the same idea, just quicker and with less exposition. This is pretty much though my problem with BB. I think sometimes it was too thorough in explaining what was going on or how things came to be when it didn't need to be. Last edited by Optimus_Prime_; 04-11-2011 at 12:32 PM. |
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#525 |
Banned User
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I also didn't like Wayne Industries going public, because it was basically a plot device to screw Mr. Earle at the end of the movie - the problem I had with it though is what Bruce did at the end (buying all those shares) is very illegal. It's basically insider trading. Also, ironically, since he returns in the movie he actually could've stopped them from going public right then and there.
Personally I felt Mr. Earle was the weakest antagonist in the film. Just kind of this "weapons = bad", "GRRRRR, no like new manager despite the fact that he doesn't really do anything wrong". Last edited by Optimus_Prime_; 04-11-2011 at 12:44 PM. |
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