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View Poll Results: Where does most TDK's negative feedback come from?
People who hate Batman. 8 4.57%
People who hate Heath Ledger. 5 2.86%
Purists. 10 5.71%
Burton fans. 20 11.43%
Kids. 4 2.29%
Eyecandy seekers. 1 0.57%
unsophisticatists. 2 1.14%
Hollywood elitists. 6 3.43%
People who think realism is boring. 13 7.43%
People who think itís conservative. (Controversial) 4 2.29%
People who think all superhero movies should follow the same format. 19 10.86%
It makes people feel special. 39 22.29%
Other. 44 25.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-12-2011, 12:52 PM   #551
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Exactly. Mr. Earl was this villain who never did anything villainous except piss on a character we were supposed to like. Honestly, I have no interest seeing Bruce Wayne be an underling in his own company -- especially when he's using insider trading to re-acquire it. Most of the Mr. Earl scenes were crap to. That entire sequence could've been over in one second "Well seeing as I, Bruce Wayne, the majority shareholder, is not dead, and therefore cannot be legally declared dead, I'd rather not take the company public -- you're fired".
What makes you think Earle was supposed to be a villain? Being a jerk doesnt make you a villain.

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Old 04-12-2011, 01:19 PM   #552
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What makes you think Earle was supposed to be a villain? Being a jerk doesnt make you a villain.
Mr. Earl fits the literary definition of an antagonist, so as far as the story is concerned he's the "villain" of the story - although I agree that's a strong word for him.

To keep that response semi-on topic, The Dark Knight had a much improved cast of characters. Mr. Earl was generic and boring, and spoke mostly in exposition. The Dark Knight was much better at adding little shades of depth to the minor characters. Ramerez has a mother is the hospital, Wuertz is hangs around in bars while the city goes to chaos, Berg's nervousness about his wife, even the bank teller exuded a lot of character for a bit part. About the only character who absolutely sucked balls in that movie was Gamble. Michael Jai White didn't need to be anywhere near that...well any movie really.


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Old 04-12-2011, 01:31 PM   #553
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

to compare two-face in TDK to lector in silence of the lambs is ridiculous.

lector existed in silence of the lambs for as long as the movie/plot required his character to exist. and what limited screen time his character had was executed brilliantly in every way.

with two-face, the character is worth so much more than the limited time they gave him. and what they did with him in that limited time wasnt anything amazing. the potential of the character is huge and its a crime that they decided to ignore that.

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Old 04-12-2011, 01:33 PM   #554
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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lector existed in silence of the lambs for as long as the movie/plot required his character to exist. and what limited screen time his character had was executed brilliantly in every way.
Same as Two Face

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Old 04-12-2011, 01:34 PM   #555
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Mr. Earl fits the literary definition of an antagonist, so as far as the story is concerned he's the "villain" of the story - although I agree that's a strong word for him.

To keep that response semi-on topic, The Dark Knight had a much improved cast of characters. Mr. Earl was generic and boring, and spoke mostly in exposition. The Dark Knight was much better at adding little shades of depth to the minor characters. Ramerez has a mother is the hospital, Wuertz is hangs around in bars while the city goes to chaos, Berg's nervousness about his wife, even the bank teller exuded a lot of character for a bit part.
Yeah they were good newbie characters. I liked the GCPD a lot in the sequel. I didnt like Flass in Begins.

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Old 04-12-2011, 01:56 PM   #556
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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to compare two-face in TDK to lector in silence of the lambs is ridiculous.

lector existed in silence of the lambs for as long as the movie/plot required his character to exist. and what limited screen time his character had was executed brilliantly in every way.

with two-face, the character is worth so much more than the limited time they gave him. and what they did with him in that limited time wasnt anything amazing. the potential of the character is huge and its a crime that they decided to ignore that.
Same as Two-Face in TDK.

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with two-face, the character is worth so much more than the limited time they gave him. and what they did with him in that limited time wasnt anything amazing. the potential of the character is huge and its a crime that they decided to ignore that.
The potential was all there. It didn't harm they excluded the number 2 obsession. You don't need more time to reach a higher quality.

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Old 04-12-2011, 02:24 PM   #557
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Same as Two Face
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Same as Two-Face in TDK.

The potential was all there. It didn't harm they excluded the number 2 obsession. You don't need more time to reach a higher quality.
Naw, gonna have to disagree here. Maybe if you had said "Same as Harvey Dent" I'd agree. He certainly got a good bit of character development, but Two-Face just killed a few people, gave a speech and left. I really did feel short-changed. I also didn't quite like that Joker set him up as a grand threat in his final speech, and he really only proved to be a minor threat to the city at large. I simply never bought a D.A. flying off the handle would up the population in Arkham. If I can survive watching the beloved sports icon O.J. Simpson go from the coolest guy in the room to a alledged killer then a D.A. going bonkers is something I can handle.

OR if I was going to buy that Harvey had this power to drive Gotham over the edge into pure madness I would've liked to have seen it first hand. Jokers speech at the end is ominous and one hell of a cliffhanger, only to have his supposed "Ace in the hole" snuffed out as quickly as it's introduced. I would've rather seen a film where that Genie gets out of the bottle, and it takes the combined efforts of Gordon and Batman to put Two-Face back in.

I actually watched the movie last night and during the speech I said to my roommate "I wouldn't care if my DA shot a bunch of people, I wouldn't care if my Senator did it, I'd just elect the new bum to take his place"...and he said in response was "I'll give you that".

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Old 04-12-2011, 02:37 PM   #558
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Thing is, big part of Two-Face was made up by Harvey Dent's story. It's just one character, just like Batman and Bruce Wayne. Cheap philosophic chitchat more or less, they're the same, just in different circumstances. So yes, Harvey with his personality deranged and his face burnt was there for not too long but 1) much of what we need to get what the character is about comes from what we've seen from Harvey and 2) it wasn't much time but oh the quality of that! makes you remember that old quality vs quantity thing.

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Old 04-12-2011, 02:53 PM   #559
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Thing is, big part of Two-Face was made up by Harvey Dent's story. It's just one character, just like Batman and Bruce Wayne. Cheap philosophic chitchat more or less, they're the same, just in different circumstances. So yes, Harvey with his personality deranged and his face burnt was there for not too long but 1) much of what we need to get what the character is about comes from what we've seen from Harvey
I just flat out disagree with this. I think almost everyone here appreciates Two-face having a prolonged build-up, especially since Batman The Animated Series didn't just jump straight into that side of the character (ironically the comics did initially). Once he becomes Two-Face though it opens up other avenues since the face-scarring is what sends him into a life of crime -- that is the life that you can't explore while he's just Harvey, even though you can set up the sides of him that lead to it.
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and 2) it wasn't much time but oh the quality of that! makes you remember that old quality vs quantity thing.
You're starting to sound like Two-face because that's what is called a 'false dilemma'

It's not the only quality thing they could've done with the character. Just because Two-Face had a few good scenes doesn't mean that there couldn't have been more of them. What a silly point. Boba Fett was actually a much smaller character, and I would call his scenes "quality", but since the events of Return of the Jedi his character has been expanded tremedously, and he's much more since. So really the quality of "that" simply reminds me how underutilized the character was, especially in light of Heath Ledger's death - who I assume would've returned for a third.

Initially Aaron Eckhart agreed to a third movie, which means, I would guess, that he would've been the third installment villain. I always thought, after hearing that, that perhaps the reason they hastily tied off his story was to make room for more Heath Ledger in the third. There is no way they could've known they'd cast someone that good as the Joker, and once they saw Heath play the part I'm sure they thought he'd upstage anything they could do with little ole' Two-Face.


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Old 04-12-2011, 03:54 PM   #560
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Same as Two Face
no, two-face's character is way bigger than what TDK gave us.

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Old 04-12-2011, 04:52 PM   #561
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

What I really don't like reading is guys presuming films are flawless. TDK is far from flawless and one of its main detractions is Two Face.
Bruce Wayne is NOT Batman, Dent is NOT Two Face. They are parts of that character but essentially, they are not their alter-egos. Two Face is a whole different beast from Dent, moreso than Wayne and Batman. Dent completely transforms to something else, whereas Wayne bounces back and forth with his alter-ego. So no, we don't get Two Face from Dent.

Quality over quantity. That's Hannibal Lector. That's Hopkins, that's Ted Tally (screenwriter). All those elements combined with Demme's direction is the ultimate in quality over quantity. So much so that you forget how little time he is on screen. You can't compare that to Two Face. The writing was nowhere near as layered and Eckhart did well, but he's not half the actor of Hopkins.

I tell you what though, if they picked a stronger actor like Denzel with an artist doing a Two Face interpretation of him, then he is the calibre of actor that would have made the little he had into something amazing and memorable.

Sorry, but Two Face was not memorable. Joker was.

Two Face should be the villain in the third and he deserves more than like FIFTEEN MINUTES????

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Old 04-12-2011, 05:45 PM   #562
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What I really don't like reading is guys presuming films are flawless.
What I hate even more is the ignorance of someone assuming people are thinkin that just cos they dont agree with their criticisms. Your username is a contradiction to what you say.

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Sorry, but Two Face was not memorable.
Sorry, but he was to me. More memorable than Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow too.

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Two Face should be the villain in the third and he deserves more than like FIFTEEN MINUTES????
Hannibal Lecter got by on 16 minutes. Two Face did great with 15 brilliant minutes.

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no, two-face's character is way bigger than what TDK gave us.
All the characters are bigger in the comics than in the movie cos movies can only do so much in a two hour confined story. The Dent/Two Face arc was more than satisfying.


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Old 04-12-2011, 05:46 PM   #563
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Thing is, big part of Two-Face was made up by Harvey Dent's story. It's just one character, just like Batman and Bruce Wayne. Cheap philosophic chitchat more or less, they're the same, just in different circumstances. So yes, Harvey with his personality deranged and his face burnt was there for not too long but 1) much of what we need to get what the character is about comes from what we've seen from Harvey and 2) it wasn't much time but oh the quality of that! makes you remember that old quality vs quantity thing.
You're right.

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:01 PM   #564
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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All the characters are bigger in the comics than in the movie cos movies can only do so much in a two hour confined story. The Dent/Two Face arc was more than satisfying.
they could have exploited the potential of two-face's character to a much fuller extent in a separate film (after setting him up in TDK). they chose not to. instead they chose to short change the character by cramming his story into the last 20 minutes of the movie. in my opinion, this was a bad choice that deprived an audience of the characters potential. and considering how great a character two-face is, thats a real shame.

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:12 PM   #565
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Coulda woulda didnt. Theres lots of things that could of been done with many characters in all superhero flicks.

The only character I think was totally wasted in a superhero flick is Venom cos Eddie Brock was barely used even before Venom came along. TDK made full use of Dent. His turn to Two Face was a natural climax to his story. Got none of that Venom. Thats a wasted character.

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Old 04-12-2011, 06:33 PM   #566
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

Correct, Two-face was only in the film for 15 minutes.


But he did alot in those fifteen minutes.

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Old 04-12-2011, 07:55 PM   #567
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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Coulda woulda didnt. Theres lots of things that could of been done with many characters in all superhero flicks.

The only character I think was totally wasted in a superhero flick is Venom cos Eddie Brock was barely used even before Venom came along. TDK made full use of Dent. His turn to Two Face was a natural climax to his story. Got none of that Venom. Thats a wasted character.
and yet it still doesnt excuse the wasted opportunity.

TDK made full use of dent....but not two-face. and his climax felt completely unnatural to me.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:15 PM   #568
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The word I keep hearing is "satisfying" "just fine". Surely we want Two Face to be amazing, spectacular. That's what Joker was.

And come on, you are comparing Two Face in tdk to an oscar-winning performance and one of the most memorable characters AND performances of all time that has been parodied endlessly? Anthony Hopkins would be appalled...ha

Nolan chose to make Two Face come in for a short while but the writing was not as good as it was for Hannibal Lector and Eckhart is no Hopkins. These are facts, not opinions. Two Face is one of Batman's main villains and he was given....15 minutes? All he did as Two Face was flip his coin and get angry. No exploration of character whatsoever. Come on, this is plain to see.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:29 PM   #569
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Coulda woulda didnt. Theres lots of things that could of been done with many characters in all superhero flicks.
Isn't that basically the complaint. Would you tell someone who hated the writing and horrible characters of Jonah Hex that they "coulda woulda didn't" write a good movie but instead chose to do an atrocious one.
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The only character I think was totally wasted in a superhero flick is Venom cos Eddie Brock was barely used even before Venom came along. TDK made full use of Dent. His turn to Two Face was a natural climax to his story. Got none of that Venom. Thats a wasted character.
I'd say the only difference between Two-Face and Venom is that Two-Face was played by a better actor, in a better overall movie, otherwise the 15 minutes of screentime he got is not that different than the minimal screentime Venom got. I'd actually venture to say Two-Face got it worse because, quite honestly, I think Venom is a very overrated and kind of dumb character. I could do without him.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:29 PM   #570
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and yet it still doesnt excuse the wasted opportunity.
It wasnt a wasted opportunity. No more than any other wasted opportunities applicable to any comic book character used in a movie that could have more done with them.

What was done with Two Face was great.

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TDK made full use of dent....but not two-face. and his climax felt completely unnatural to me.
It felt perfectly natural to me.

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The word I keep hearing is "satisfying" "just fine". Surely we want Two Face to be amazing, spectacular. That's what Joker was.
Thats what Two Face was too.

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And come on, you are comparing Two Face in tdk to an oscar-winning performance and one of the most memorable characters AND performances of all time that has been parodied endlessly? Anthony Hopkins would be appalled...ha
See it just shows your bias. You aint talkin about what Lecter did in the flick, which was just sit in his cell for about 12 out of those 16 minutes just talkin to Clarice. Youre judgin him based on his performance. What cos he won an Oscar that makes it ok that he basically did nothin for the bulk of the movie except escape jail and kill a few people at the end? Gee who does that sound like?

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Nolan chose to make Two Face come in for a short while but the writing was not as good as it was for Hannibal Lector and Eckhart is no Hopkins. These are facts, not opinions.
No those are opinions. Get over yourself. You are living in a sea of ignorance if ya think you can dictate what is fact based on somethin as subjective as the quality of an actors performance and writing.

More bias from ya. And ignorance to boot. Dunno which is worse.

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Two Face is one of Batman's main villains and he was given....15 minutes?
Hannibal Lecter became one of the all time greats and he was given....16 minutes?

Oh but wait he won an Oscar and has been parodied. He must be better then by that default

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All he did as Two Face was flip his coin and get angry. No exploration of character whatsoever. Come on, this is plain to see.
Plain to see to you with your bias. The character exploration was all through the flick. Two Face was the climax. Come on, this is plain to see.


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Old 04-12-2011, 08:32 PM   #571
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It wasnt a wasted opportunity. No more than any other wasted opportunities applicable to any comic book character used in a movie that could have more done with them.

What was done with Two Face was great.
Stop. Telling. People. What. They. Are. Suppose. To. Like.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:34 PM   #572
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Isn't that basically the complaint. Would you tell someone who hated the writing and horrible characters of Jonah Hex that they "coulda woulda didn't" write a good movie but instead chose to do an atrocious one.
Yeah lets compare Jonah Hex a horrible turd of a flick with no redeeming value to Two Face's story. Good one.

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I'd say the only difference between Two-Face and Venom is that Two-Face was played by a better actor, in a better overall movie, otherwise the 15 minutes of screentime he got is not that different than the minimal screentime Venom got.
Oh yeah the Venom and Sandman random meet up in the alley and the kidnap of MJ for a third time. Thats totally on par with what they did Two Face.

ROFL! Optimus youre a card.

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I'd actually venture to say Two-Face got it worse because, quite honestly, I think Venom is a very overrated and kind of dumb character. I could do without him.
Thats just your preference. If ya were a Venom fanboy youd be whining that venom got it worse which he did.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:36 PM   #573
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Stop. Telling. People. What. They. Are. Suppose. To. Like.
Dont be a hypocrite:

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These are facts, not opinions
Thats tellin people what they are suppose to like and accept. And thats the "truth"

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:38 PM   #574
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Default Re: Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

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It wasnt a wasted opportunity. No more than any other wasted opportunities applicable to any comic book character used in a movie that could have more done with them.

What was done with Two Face was great.
really? so of everything you can do with the character...the potential stories, the depth, and complexities possible with him. consider all of the great things he's brought to the comics. think of all of the things that make the character one of batmans greatest villains. you saw TDK and think "yep, thats about all we need to see from him."

wow.

if you honestly believe that this wasnt a wasted opportunity, then its obvious that you have little concern or respect for the character. and thats fine, really, you dont need to like Two-Face or want to see anything else from him. but it give you little space to judge whether or not the character was wasted.

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Old 04-12-2011, 08:40 PM   #575
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really? so of everything you can do with the character...the potential stories, the depth, and complexities possible with him. consider all of the great things he's brought to the comics. think of all of the things that make the character one of batmans greatest villains. you saw TDK and think "yep, thats about all we need to see from him."

wow.

if you honestly believe that this wasnt a wasted opportunity, then its obvious that you have little concern or respect for the character. and thats fine, really, you dont need to like Two-Face or want to see anything else from him. but it give you little space to judge whether or not the character was wasted.
Yep. Spot on. No more than a million other things I think they coulda done with the Joker, Ra's, Scarecrow, Dr Octopus, Venom and all the other villains who got killed off or limited screen time in superhero flicks.

The only difference between you and me is what you find acceptable or satisfactory.

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