Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by WeasleyIsRKing

To quote Alfred, "Some people just want to watch the world burn." he sums up the Joker well, trying to get Bruce to understand what he is up against. If thats not legally insane, I don't know what is. Unless I misunderstood your last sentence Godzilla.

To be legally insane, one must not be able to control their actions. Joker, as seen in The Dark Knight, does not meet this criterion. I think he is sane and evil, which is scarier to me, because he knows what he is doing is wrong, and he chooses to do it.

[Grey_Fox]

It doesn't matter how good or brilliant something is, there will always be some douche that doesn't like it. I don't know whether they do it just so they can look like they stand out, but usually when you ask them what they like it's always some artsy crap no one has ever heard of.

[Doc Samson]

Simply put, I would say 25-30% of it is warranted, the rest are just people being contrarian, which a segment of people will always be in regards to something extremely popular, no matter it's quality.

Before the internet, you really couldn't understand what the whole world really thought about something, outside of what you saw on tv or in the paper. So I think the criticism now is mostly just people trying to remain individuals, even though they're still within a group, lol. It's like the goth kids when they used to go the mall and wear all black, to stand out, even though there's like 20 of them.

[Godzilla2014]

One (fortunately rarely seen) criticism I hate is "it's a superhero movie that's trying to be something it can not be." This is just utter ******** in my opinion. If The Dark Knight's philosophical and moral quandaries aren't what you are looking for in a Batman film (or a superhero film in general), that's fine with me (different strokes for different folks), but to say that those dilemmas can't be genuine just because they are in a superhero film is complete and utter ******** to me. Such restrictive mindsets put the whole genre in a box and rewards formulaic conformity.

[Travesty]

I was stuck in a hotel for a few days, and TDK was on TBS, and I noticed a line in the movie that I totally forgot about. When the GCPD is arresting Maroni and all of his crew in the restaurant, one of the cops puts a guy in the back seat of the car and says, "have a nice trip. See you next fall". Wowza!

[Spicy]

the only thing that bothers me is now all future batman movies will be compared to TDK. who ever plays the joker (the character will probably be used again in a non-nolan film) will be expected to be like Heath Ledger.

[Valaquen]

Originally Posted by Travesty

I was stuck in a hotel for a few days, and TDK was on TBS, and I noticed a line in the movie that I totally forgot about. When the GCPD is arresting Maroni and all of his crew in the restaurant, one of the cops puts a guy in the back seat of the car and says, "have a nice trip. See you next fall". Wowza!

There's a few gags and lines in BB and TDK that have eternally bugged the crap outta me. Nolan has a habit for the 'dumb-founded spectator' during chase scenes that goes cars chasing one another-cut to person looking bored-cut to explosions as cars drive past-cut back to bored person with O-face [I think there are 2 or 3 in the one chase in BB, and a couple during the Tumbler/Batpod sequence].

Gordon's SWAT buddy in TDK ['I didn't sign up for this' 'Oh that's not good - that's not good!'] killed me. He was horrible.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Spicy

the only thing that bothers me is now all future batman movies will be compared to TDK. who ever plays the joker (the character will probably be used again in a non-nolan film) will be expected to be like Heath Ledger.

Just like 20 years ago it was expected to be like Nicholson.

[Unmasked]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

Yea, the Joker's plots worked out so perfectly for him it's like he was actually telepathic or could predict the future or something.

I do like the ambiguity of the Joker, whether he was telling the truth or not etc.

I don't think he had everything planned out perfectly

I think he gambled (he is on a playing card after all )

this Joker doesnt care if he gets hit or killed, he has nothing to lose.

Plus, the chaos he has created kinda gives him other alternatives if something doesnt happen as planned

And finally, he doesn't believe in plans.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by Unmasked

And finally, he doesn't believe in plans.

Of course he believes in plans. If he didn't, then he would have accomplished nothing. Everything he did was through plans. He just said that to Dent, in order to corrupt him more.

So in other words, it literally is "all part of the plan".

[HisMagicTrick]

I think that most of the criticisms come from people who don't think The Dark Knight stays true to the comics. Most of the reviews I've read from people who don't like it say that all the interesting parts of Batman and his villains were taken out. In other words, they thought it was too boring.

[GothamAlleys]

Originally Posted by HisMagicTrick

I think that most of the criticisms come from people who don't think The Dark Knight stays true to the comics. Most of the reviews I've read from people who don't like it say that all the interesting parts of Batman and his villains were taken out. In other words, they thought it was too boring.

And that would be very stupid of thse people for two reasons.

1. Its not true. TDK draws a lot from Long Halloween and Batman #1, among some others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...s-part-vi.html , and Im going to be adding more soon. That myth that Returns and TDK are just other movies with Batman in it is just that - a myth

2. Why would anyone put so much weight into faithfulness to comic books? Sure, its nice to see some form of adaptation, but a mirror image? No, thanks. For me it counts whats good, not whats faithful

As for the movie being boring, well, thats ones opinion, Im personally glad theres so much dialogue and character moments. Kinda refreshing after seeing this summer garbage thrown at us filled with CGI and explosions every 10 minutes, targeted for audiences with ADD (*cough* Micheal Bay *cough cough*)

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

And that would be very stupid of thse people for two reasons.

1. Its not true. TDK draws a lot from Long Halloween and Batman #1, among some others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...s-part-vi.html , and Im going to be adding more soon. That myth that Returns and TDK are just other movies with Batman in it is just that - a myth

2. Why would anyone put so much weight into faithfulness to comic books? Sure, its nice to see some form of adaptation, but a mirror image? No, thanks. For me it counts whats good, not whats faithful

As for the movie being boring, well, thats ones opinion, Im personally glad theres so much dialogue and character moments. Kinda refreshing after seeing this summer garbage thrown at us filled with CGI and explosions every 10 minutes, targeted for audiences with ADD (*cough* Micheal Bay *cough cough*)

Agreed.

[HisMagicTrick]

Originally Posted by GothamAlleys

And that would be very stupid of thse people for two reasons.

1. Its not true. TDK draws a lot from Long Halloween and Batman #1, among some others - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...s-part-vi.html , and Im going to be adding more soon. That myth that Returns and TDK are just other movies with Batman in it is just that - a myth

2. Why would anyone put so much weight into faithfulness to comic books? Sure, its nice to see some form of adaptation, but a mirror image? No, thanks. For me it counts whats good, not whats faithful

As for the movie being boring, well, thats ones opinion, Im personally glad theres so much dialogue and character moments. Kinda refreshing after seeing this summer garbage thrown at us filled with CGI and explosions every 10 minutes, targeted for audiences with ADD (*cough* Micheal Bay *cough cough*)

Completely agree. I thought TDK had the perfect amount of dialogue and action. Very recently I watched Spider-Man after having not seen it in quite a while, and I thought it was both annoying and exhausting the way they threw an action scene in your face every two seconds. It's like most movies think their audience is too stupid to understand anything else (which is sadly the case for many people).

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by HisMagicTrick

Completely agree. I thought TDK had the perfect amount of dialogue and action. Very recently I watched Spider-Man after having not seen it in quite a while, and I thought it was both annoying and exhausting the way they threw an action scene in your face every two seconds. It's like most movies think their audience is too stupid to understand anything else (which is sadly the case for many people).

Thhe problem there is that trhe dialogues didn't have much to offer.

[GothamAlleys]

Where, in Spiderman or TDK?

[The Morningstar]

Originally Posted by HisMagicTrick

Completely agree. I thought TDK had the perfect amount of dialogue and action. Very recently I watched Spider-Man after having not seen it in quite a while, and I thought it was both annoying and exhausting the way they threw an action scene in your face every two seconds. It's like most movies think their audience is too stupid to understand anything else (which is sadly the case for many people).

This makes me laugh.

TDK treats it's audience like idiots too. But obviously in a different way than Transformers.

There is just so much needless exposition and spoon feeding. Waaaaay too much telling and not enough showing. The characters rarely speak like real life human beings, they are like mouth pieces for Nolan and co. The conversations and interactions the characters have just don't seem natural, there is barely any prose.

Like Joker's speech to Harvey in the hospital. How many times does the guy want to say chaos?

Or Gordon's breaking the fourth wall monologue at the end explaining the theme of the movie for all the stupid people out there.

[HisMagicTrick]

Originally Posted by The Morningstar

This makes me laugh.

TDK treats it's audience like idiots too. But obviously in a different way than Transformers.

There is just so much needless exposition and spoon feeding. Waaaaay too much telling and not enough showing. The characters rarely speak like real life human beings, they are like mouth pieces for Nolan and co. The conversations and interactions the characters have just don't seem natural, there is barely any prose.

Like Joker's speech to Harvey in the hospital. How many times does the guy want to say chaos?

Or Gordon's breaking the fourth wall monologue at the end explaining the theme of the movie for all the stupid people out there.

While I don't particularly agree with everything you said, there are moments when TDK does treat it's audience like idiots, but as you pointed out, it's different to what Transformers does. Transformers seems like its target audience is the idiots of society, whereas TDK isn't directly targeting them. At least, I don't think so.

I do agree with you on Gordon's speech, though - it's because of your posts from a while back that I noticed it in the first place, so thanks for that.

With the Joker's speech, that I don't agree with. He was trying to manipulate Harvey, get his message across, so it makes sense for him to repeat himself. Although, he only said it three times…

[Two-Face=Badass]

Exposition is a big problem for Nolan, it brought down Inception a lot in telling rather than showing, and having secondary character simply be expositional.

I think Dark Knight is a really good movie, but not a truly great one. There are several very good criticisms of it really, unlike how the loaded poll or others suggest as simply being alternative or stupid.

For one, the Joker is far too in control. It stretches believability to breaking point, stomps on it, then chucks it into the sun. How did he get the explosives into the hospital? The warehouses? The boats? How did no one notice? How did he time it perfectly so that only Rachel would be saved properly? How did he escape jail so easily despite the fact that an explosion would be utterly unpredictable in its effects? The fact is, in order to be an effective villain, his successes were made off-screen to work, rather than the script actually giving him a clever plan. Similarly to how the police conveniently never noticed his penchance for switching things. Great villain, utterly dreck scheme.

Much has been said on the voice and the fights, so I'll simply state that they are controversial and could have been done better, the latter particularly which looks incredibly staged and formulaic.

I also take huge issues with Nolan's treatment of female characters. As a pro-feminist, I think his use of women to motivate the male leads by dying is poor storytelling - in Memento, Inception, Dark Knight and Prestige - and predictable and uninspired. For someone who comes up with such fantastic plots, it is not a small flaw to consistently take a (no doubt unintentional) sexist route of having shallow female characters die to allow male ones to grieve. Unforunately it is also a problem many seem to think little of, despite some very bad implications. I have no doubts Nolan is not sexist or misogynist, but the Dark Knight becoming a sausage fest for the third act, to the point where even Gordon's son was used over his more famous daughter, was a problem.

[T-CLIPSE]

WOW!

Man, some of you guys ought to be psychiatrists or psychologists or something, you guys have dissected that movie down to the core of it's entire emotional, philosophical, and psychological essence. I'm impressed with the level of insight that some of you guys have broken this movie down to. I saw where one poster even made reference to a symbolic biblical undertone between the Smith & Wesson exchange (from Joker to Harvey) and connected that exchange to the apple from Adam and Eve, Wow, that went straight over my head when I was watching the movie, is that really what that was?... ...Nolan used a Smith & Wesson as symbolism for the Adam and Eve apple? You guys are sharp, I missed that one.

If you guys have got that movie figured out to that in depth degree just help me understand one small,tiny,little nitpicking thing that has been bugging me from the first day I saw that movie,....

How is it that Batman can be standing right next to Rachel at the Dent fund raiser but The Joker (nor anyone else for that matter) can see him standing there until he says "Then you're gonna love me"? How in the world is that possible?

With all these psychologists, and psychiatrists on this board,.. I'll settle for just one optometrist who would explain it to me.

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by T-CLIPSE

WOW!

Man, some of you guys ought to be psychiatrists or psychologists or something, you guys have dissected that movie down to the core of it's entire emotional, philosophical, and psychological essence. I'm impressed with the level of insight that some of you guys have broken this movie down to. I saw where one poster even made reference to a symbolic biblical undertone between the Smith & Wesson exchange (from Joker to Harvey) and connected that exchange to the apple from Adam and Eve, Wow, that went straight over my head when I was watching the movie, is that really what that was?... ...Nolan used a Smith & Wesson as symbolism for the Adam and Eve apple? You guys are sharp, I missed that one.

If you guys have got that movie figured out to that in depth degree just help me understand one small,tiny,little nitpicking thing that has been bugging me from the first day I saw that movie,....

How is it that Batman can be standing right next to Rachel at the Dent fund raiser but The Joker (nor anyone else for that matter) can see him standing there until he says "Then you're gonna love me"? How in the world is that possible?

Thanks for the compliment!
It could be that even if people saw Batman, they probably wouldn't want to alert the Joker.

[HisMagicTrick]

Originally Posted by T-CLIPSE

WOW!

Man, some of you guys ought to be psychiatrists or psychologists or something, you guys have dissected that movie down to the core of it's entire emotional, philosophical, and psychological essence. I'm impressed with the level of insight that some of you guys have broken this movie down to. I saw where one poster even made reference to a symbolic biblical undertone between the Smith & Wesson exchange (from Joker to Harvey) and connected that exchange to the apple from Adam and Eve, Wow, that went straight over my head when I was watching the movie, is that really what that was?... ...Nolan used a Smith & Wesson as symbolism for the Adam and Eve apple? You guys are sharp, I missed that one.

If you guys have got that movie figured out to that in depth degree just help me understand one small,tiny,little nitpicking thing that has been bugging me from the first day I saw that movie,....

How is it that Batman can be standing right next to Rachel at the Dent fund raiser but The Joker (nor anyone else for that matter) can see him standing there until he says "Then you're gonna love me"? How in the world is that possible?

With all these psychologists, and psychiatrists on this board,.. I'll settle for just one optometrist who would explain it to me.

That Adam and Eve thing I've never heard of, and I've never even put those two together, but it is kind of interesting the way the Joker was like the snake luring Harvey/Eve to it. I'm not sure if that was intentional though.

As for your question, I guess it's like what Godzilla said. They were all just too scared and didn't even want to say anything.

[T-CLIPSE]

Originally Posted by Godzilla2014

It could be that even if people saw Batman, they probably wouldn't want to alert the Joker.

Originally Posted by HisMagicTrick

As for your question, I guess it's like what Godzilla said. They were all just too scared and didn't even want to say anything.

C'mon you guys are dodging half of the question, Okay so the people didn't want to alert Joker,..okay fine, now answer the other half,...why didn't THE JOKER see him?

[wampa1]

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

It doesn't matter how good or brilliant something is, there will always be some douche that doesn't like it.

It doesn't necessarily follow that not liking something = douche.

However, it does follow that anyone subscribing to that mode of thinking = douche.

[Godzilla2014]

Originally Posted by T-CLIPSE

C'mon you guys are dodging half of the question, Okay so the people didn't want to alert Joker,..okay fine, now answer the other half,...why didn't THE JOKER see him?

Keep in mind that we don't know how long Batman was standing there before he says, "Then you're going to love me." from offscreen, nor do we know his route to that spot, et cetera. For all we know, he may have only just arrived at the moment he started speaking.