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Old 04-10-2009, 08:31 AM   #1
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Default Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

I've heard about the leaked movie, haven't seen it but it seems there is some confusion about some of the characters.

"Logan" and "Creed":

First off nothing ever says directly that they are related however in the actual Origin story mini-series from what I understand is pure canon the following occurs.

1) Wolverine/Logan's name is actually James Howlett...yes. As a kid you see that he's sickly and weak, never explains fully but you kind of get the idea it's his mutation maturing and for some reason it does it in this fashion. Plus he has like some kind of speech impediment.

2) Thomas Logan is actually the alcoholic estate gardner's name; the Howlett's are a rich family with an estate...somewhere in southern Alberta I think although it never really says where they start off. He has a troublemaking son named Dog whom of course gets regular beatings from his drunk old man called Logan.

3) John and Elizabeth are James' parents names. Elizabeth went to a mental hospital after thier oldest son whom is never named dies; she is back for the first part of the story however. They have a butler called Kenneth and a maid/cook named Mrs. Hopkins and other unnamed servants.

4) The gardner Logan looks SO obviously like Wolverine it's impossible not to guess who James' actual father is.

5) James' surly old grandfather from out east fits in there somewhere too.

6) It says several times along the series that no one is really sure of "Dogs" name or if he even has one other than his nickname.

7) Long story short without too many details cause the series is WELL worth reading...trouble ensues and tragedy befalls James and in the end you find out that Logan raped Elizabeth and James is actually Logan's son...big suprise there. So Dog and James are half brothers. James assumes the gardners name to hide his true identity cause his grandfather comes lookin for him.

8) At the very end you see a big dude who stares down James and you find out it's Dog. It never says his actual name but the frame where you see him he looks a LOT like Sabertooth/Victor Creed.

9) Also Creed was a nickname that Wolverine gave him under the Department H/Weapon X team years I believe.

I assume from here out that they are half brothers and "Dog's" real name is Victor "Creed" Logan. Anyway might be some interesting character bits for you all. Again I haven't seen the movie on how they did it so can't say but this is actual canon history.

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Old 04-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

Actually you have most of your information completely wrong.


1) Wolverine/Logan's name is actually James Howlett...yes. As a kid you see that he's sickly and weak, never explains fully but you kind of get the idea it's his mutation maturing and for some reason it does it in this fashion. Plus he has like some kind of speech impediment.

Correct

2) Thomas Logan is actually the alcoholic estate gardner's name; the Howlett's are a rich family with an estate...somewhere in southern Alberta I think although it never really says where they start off. He has a troublemaking son named Dog whom of course gets regular beatings from his drunk old man called Logan.

Correct

3) John and Elizabeth are James' parents names. Elizabeth went to a mental hospital after thier oldest son whom is never named dies; she is back for the first part of the story however. They have a butler called Kenneth and a maid/cook named Mrs. Hopkins and other unnamed servants.

Correct

4) The gardner Logan looks SO obviously like Wolverine it's impossible not to guess who James' actual father is.

Wrong

Thomas Logan, is NOT James' father. John Howlett IS his real father. Paul Jenkins specifically stated in an interview a few years back that they designed Thomas to look like that to throw the reader off. They didn't want you to know right away what character was going to end up being Wolverine.

Which is why Thomas Logan, looks like Wolverine and has the last name Logan. This definitely worked to an extent because even looking at the cover of the Origin GN or Comic most would think that the Young Dog was a young Wolverine and not James.

Also if you read Origin again, you will see that Thomas didn't arrive in town, let along work for the Howlett's until well after both John Jr and James had been born.

5) James' surly old grandfather from out east fits in there somewhere too.

Not sure what you're getting at

6) It says several times along the series that no one is really sure of "Dogs" name or if he even has one other than his nickname.

Correct

7) Long story short without too many details cause the series is WELL worth reading...trouble ensues and tragedy befalls James and in the end you find out that Logan raped Elizabeth and James is actually Logan's son...big suprise there. So Dog and James are half brothers. James assumes the gardners name to hide his true identity cause his grandfather comes lookin for him.

Wrong again

Thomas Logan DID NOT RAPE Elizabeth. While he is NOT James is father, he and Elizabeth DID become WILLING LOVERS. When he comes in her room in the middle of the the night he says to her, "Not a Sound, Elizabeth. Its me... Thomas, understand?"

Then later when James Kills Thomas with his Claws, after she slaps James, Elizabeth walks PAST John's dead body, over to Thomas, takes him in her arms and says "Oh, Thomas... What Have I done...?"

Doesn't sound like much of a rape to me...

So Thomas is NOT James' father, and James and Dog are not half brothers.

8) At the very end you see a big dude who stares down James and you find out it's Dog. It never says his actual name but the frame where you see him he looks a LOT like Sabertooth/Victor Creed.

Wrong once again

Dog is NOT Sabertooth.

Jenkins stated as such, once again they put Dog in there as well as the Red head Rose to show the early signs of what would become reoccurring factors in the Wolverine Mythology i.e. his love of Red heads (Jean) and larger hulking men coming for him (Sabertooth/Cyber)

Also Jenkins specifically left the door open that if someone WANTED to make Dog = Sabertooth they could, but they would some how have to get around the whole think about Dog's face being scared well into his adulthood, when if he was sabertooth, it would have healed a long time ago.

9) Also Creed was a nickname that Wolverine gave him under the Department H/Weapon X team years I believe.

I don't know where the hell you go that from, because its not true either

I assume from here out that they are half brothers and "Dog's" real name is Victor "Creed" Logan. Anyway might be some interesting character bits for you all. Again I haven't seen the movie on how they did it so can't say but this is actual canon history.

Sorry but NOW they have the actually canon history.


Last edited by BenReilly; 04-15-2009 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

Good points dude I'm definately gonna have to give them a fresh read again just to find out some of that stuff. Although I do remember James' mothers back being all scarred to crap which is why I assumed rape from Logan. Again I'll have to give it another read but I was pretty damn close for most of it.

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Old 04-27-2009, 02:58 PM   #4
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Given the situation though I think there was more to it.
The movie though is most likely gonna go the route that the wife was unfaithful long before the child was born(wolverine).

Comic book wise, yeah Logan was to throw everyone off. James certainly looks like Mr. Howlett when the kid/man have haircuts. Chalk that one up to grooming.

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Old 04-27-2009, 09:27 PM   #5
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The ORIGIN comic was garbage and should have never been published.

FYI, the original planned origin for Wolverine (according to both Claremont and Byrne) was that Sabretooth was Wolverine's father (which is why he always shows up on his birthday to kick Logan's butt) and that Logan volunteered for the Weapon X project in order to walk again after being bed ridden for ten years due to having every bone in his body shattered in a tractor accident. Simple,sweet,and straight to the point. OMT, CC and JB intended for his claws to be ARTIFICIALLY implanted in him and NOT biological bone claws.

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Old 04-27-2009, 09:31 PM   #6
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The ORIGIN comic was garbage and should have never been published.
Why? I thought it was great.

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Old 04-27-2009, 09:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

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Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
The ORIGIN comic was garbage and should have never been published.

FYI, the original planned origin for Wolverine (according to both Claremont and Byrne) was that Sabretooth was Wolverine's father (which is why he always shows up on his birthday to kick Logan's butt) and that Logan volunteered for the Weapon X project in order to walk again after being bed ridden for ten years due to having every bone in his body shattered in a tractor accident. Simple,sweet,and straight to the point. OMT, CC and JB intended for his claws to be ARTIFICIALLY implanted in him and NOT biological bone claws.
That story sounds terrible. I'll keep the Origin story that made it to print, thanks.

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Old 04-27-2009, 09:41 PM   #8
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Why? I thought it was great.
I agree. I really liked Origin and I didn't even expect to.

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Old 04-27-2009, 10:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

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Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
The ORIGIN comic was garbage and should have never been published.

FYI, the original planned origin for Wolverine (according to both Claremont and Byrne) was that Sabretooth was Wolverine's father (which is why he always shows up on his birthday to kick Logan's butt) and that Logan volunteered for the Weapon X project in order to walk again after being bed ridden for ten years due to having every bone in his body shattered in a tractor accident. Simple,sweet,and straight to the point. OMT, CC and JB intended for his claws to be ARTIFICIALLY implanted in him and NOT biological bone claws.

Bone claws as a matter of his mutation makes much more sense, IMO. Otherwise, Weapon X wouldn't just need to implant artificial claws, but the necessary extra muscles, nervous system parts and such to make them work. And they would need to do this all w/o Logan's super healing ability rejecting those changes. Plus I enjoyed the Origin comic, it's much, much, much better than what we get in the movie.

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Old 04-27-2009, 11:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

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Actually you have most of your information completely wrong.




4) The gardner Logan looks SO obviously like Wolverine it's impossible not to guess who James' actual father is.

Wrong

Thomas Logan, is NOT James' father. John Howlett IS his real father. Paul Jenkins specifically stated in an interview a few years back that they designed Thomas to look like that to throw the reader off. They didn't want you to know right away what character was going to end up being Wolverine.


Which is why Thomas Logan, looks like Wolverine and has the last name Logan. This definitely worked to an extent because even looking at the cover of the Origin GN or Comic most would think that the Young Dog was a young Wolverine and not James.

Also if you read Origin again, you will see that Thomas didn't arrive in town, let along work for the Howlett's until well after both John Jr and James had been born.
I'd like a link to that interview, because everything I've read has said that it's still speculative (but heavily implied) that Thomas Logan is Wolverine's real dad.

And what are you talking about in regards to Thomas arriving in town? He's literally there in the very beginning of the story. In fact, it's like the second page. It is never implied he arrived in that town after the Howletts.

Quote:
So Thomas is NOT James' father, and James and Dog are not half brothers.

8) At the very end you see a big dude who stares down James and you find out it's Dog. It never says his actual name but the frame where you see him he looks a LOT like Sabertooth/Victor Creed.

Wrong once again

Dog is NOT Sabertooth.

Jenkins stated as such, once again they put Dog in there as well as the Red head Rose to show the early signs of what would become reoccurring factors in the Wolverine Mythology i.e. his love of Red heads (Jean) and larger hulking men coming for him (Sabertooth/Cyber)

Also Jenkins specifically left the door open that if someone WANTED to make Dog = Sabertooth they could, but they would some how have to get around the whole think about Dog's face being scared well into his adulthood, when if he was sabertooth, it would have healed a long time ago.
He wasn't wrong about anything there. He only said that Dog looked like Sabretooth, and he does. He looks a hell of lot like him.

And (we've gone over this extensively in the is dog sabes thread) the scars do not prove that Sabretooth isn't Dog. He easily could have fully developed his mutant powers after that fight, or his healing ability may not have advanced enough to completely repair deep scar damage yet.

However, a recently released comic portrays Sabes with an origin that contradicts the Dog theory.

And back to the Thomas Logan thing again, I have never read, anywhere, that Jenkins specifically stated Thomas wasn't James' father. Everything I've read has said it was left open.

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Old 04-27-2009, 11:23 PM   #11
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Bone claws as a matter of his mutation makes much more sense, IMO. Otherwise, Weapon X wouldn't just need to implant artificial claws, but the necessary extra muscles, nervous system parts and such to make them work. And they would need to do this all w/o Logan's super healing ability rejecting those changes. Plus I enjoyed the Origin comic, it's much, much, much better than what we get in the movie.
I agree, not only that, but the explained reason for the claws that we get in the Weapon X mini doesn't make any sense at all. It's stated that the claws are a mistake...but if they were a mistake, ala pooled adamantium that forms in his arms...he'd have no way of using them! He has no muscles that could force the claws out of his forearms, and he has no artificially implanted technology that could allow him to use them.

At least in the Days of Future Past story, where you see Wolverine's skeleton, it's illustrated so it looks like Wolverine has some sort of man made technology attached to his forearms. That made more sense then the explanation we got.

Also, I love Origins as well. It's one of my favorite (relatively) recent Wolverine stories. The thing I like most about it is that it enforces one of my favorite characterizations of Wolverine. That, deep down, he's a good man who's had a lot of crap happen to him. Too many comics now a days make him a suped up Punnisher that has no qualms with killing anyone who gets in his way.

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Old 04-28-2009, 03:33 PM   #12
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Also, I love Origins as well. It's one of my favorite (relatively) recent Wolverine stories. The thing I like most about it is that it enforces one of my favorite characterizations of Wolverine. That, deep down, he's a good man who's had a lot of crap happen to him. Too many comics now a days make him a suped up Punnisher that has no qualms with killing anyone who gets in his way.
What I love about Origins is that they're not like "Ooh, ooh, let's just get through this boring part and race to the Weapon X stuff. THAT'S what everyone wants to see!!" unlike the movie(which is exactly that way). Rather the comic is fully content to spend the entire time in the 19th century. This gives it time to show all the trauma of Wolverine's early life on the estate as well as the trauma of his emerging mutant powers. Plus I love period stuff like this and the whole thing has a gothic vibe to it that I just love. Now I would have loved if they did this with the movie, rather than spending only 1-2 minutes on his childhood in total. But it's FOX and the only way they'd have gone for something like that is if James Cameron was directing it.

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Old 04-28-2009, 03:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

Well Zack Snyder was slated to direct initially and he wanted an R rating to tell the Wolverine story properly but Fox (Donner too) didn't like the idea and Jackman also didn't like the idea either so Snyder just decided to proceed with Watchmen instead.

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Old 04-28-2009, 04:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

Wolverine's origin wouldn't need to R-rated, just hard PG-13 like Casino Royale, TDK, etc. I mean the comic itself wasn't like it was a MAX comic or anything.

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Old 04-28-2009, 11:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

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Well Zack Snyder was slated to direct initially and he wanted an R rating to tell the Wolverine story properly but Fox (Donner too) didn't like the idea and Jackman also didn't like the idea either so Snyder just decided to proceed with Watchmen instead.
Now THAT would be badass

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Old 04-29-2009, 01:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BenReilly View Post
Actually you have most of your information completely wrong.


1) Wolverine/Logan's name is actually James Howlett...yes. As a kid you see that he's sickly and weak, never explains fully but you kind of get the idea it's his mutation maturing and for some reason it does it in this fashion. Plus he has like some kind of speech impediment.

Correct

2) Thomas Logan is actually the alcoholic estate gardner's name; the Howlett's are a rich family with an estate...somewhere in southern Alberta I think although it never really says where they start off. He has a troublemaking son named Dog whom of course gets regular beatings from his drunk old man called Logan.

Correct

3) John and Elizabeth are James' parents names. Elizabeth went to a mental hospital after thier oldest son whom is never named dies; she is back for the first part of the story however. They have a butler called Kenneth and a maid/cook named Mrs. Hopkins and other unnamed servants.

Correct

4) The gardner Logan looks SO obviously like Wolverine it's impossible not to guess who James' actual father is.

Wrong

Thomas Logan, is NOT James' father. John Howlett IS his real father. Paul Jenkins specifically stated in an interview a few years back that they designed Thomas to look like that to throw the reader off. They didn't want you to know right away what character was going to end up being Wolverine.

Which is why Thomas Logan, looks like Wolverine and has the last name Logan. This definitely worked to an extent because even looking at the cover of the Origin GN or Comic most would think that the Young Dog was a young Wolverine and not James.

Also if you read Origin again, you will see that Thomas didn't arrive in town, let along work for the Howlett's until well after both John Jr and James had been born.

5) James' surly old grandfather from out east fits in there somewhere too.

Not sure what you're getting at

6) It says several times along the series that no one is really sure of "Dogs" name or if he even has one other than his nickname.

Correct

7) Long story short without too many details cause the series is WELL worth reading...trouble ensues and tragedy befalls James and in the end you find out that Logan raped Elizabeth and James is actually Logan's son...big suprise there. So Dog and James are half brothers. James assumes the gardners name to hide his true identity cause his grandfather comes lookin for him.

Wrong again

Thomas Logan DID NOT RAPE Elizabeth. While he is NOT James is father, he and Elizabeth DID become WILLING LOVERS. When he comes in her room in the middle of the the night he says to her, "Not a Sound, Elizabeth. Its me... Thomas, understand?"

Then later when James Kills Thomas with his Claws, after she slaps James, Elizabeth walks PAST John's dead body, over to Thomas, takes him in her arms and says "Oh, Thomas... What Have I done...?"

Doesn't sound like much of a rape to me...

So Thomas is NOT James' father, and James and Dog are not half brothers.

8) At the very end you see a big dude who stares down James and you find out it's Dog. It never says his actual name but the frame where you see him he looks a LOT like Sabertooth/Victor Creed.

Wrong once again

Dog is NOT Sabertooth.

Jenkins stated as such, once again they put Dog in there as well as the Red head Rose to show the early signs of what would become reoccurring factors in the Wolverine Mythology i.e. his love of Red heads (Jean) and larger hulking men coming for him (Sabertooth/Cyber)

Also Jenkins specifically left the door open that if someone WANTED to make Dog = Sabertooth they could, but they would some how have to get around the whole think about Dog's face being scared well into his adulthood, when if he was sabertooth, it would have healed a long time ago.

9) Also Creed was a nickname that Wolverine gave him under the Department H/Weapon X team years I believe.

I don't know where the hell you go that from, because its not true either

I assume from here out that they are half brothers and "Dog's" real name is Victor "Creed" Logan. Anyway might be some interesting character bits for you all. Again I haven't seen the movie on how they did it so can't say but this is actual canon history.

Sorry but NOW they have the actually canon history.
I am not sure if your right or not because iam not familiar with his origin like others on here. But you definetley impressed me with that . Good job man.

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Old 04-29-2009, 01:46 PM   #17
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Default Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

Okay, I hope there's not already a thread like this.

After seeing the movie in the cinema yesterday, I left with a few questions on my mind. Most of these are little, silly things, and I don't mean to make a big fuss about any of them. But they left me with that 'huh?' sensation, and I wondered what anybody else thought of them.. Maybe someone's got some explanations to save a poor girl from being confused?

There's definately spoilers here for who hasn't seen the movie yet, btw.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Wolverine gets shot in the head with adamantium bullets. You can see quite clearly that the bullet penetrates his skull. After that, he slowly heals again. We never see the bullet pop out of his skull though, so I'm wondering: is that bullet still wandering somewhere inside his skull? And if so, wouldn't it dent his brain and thus leave Wolvie with a severe brain damage?

2. In the movie, Scott meets Logan. So, okay, he doesn't see him. But he hears him. Wouldn't he recognize the voice in X1?
And Xavier? Didn't nobody tell this guy who saved them? Wouldn't he already 'know' Wolverine pre-X1?

3. While we're at it, why doesn't Sabretooth know him in X1?

4. Why does Stryker at some point call Jim/James/Wolverine Logan all of the sudden? This sudden change of name is never explained, is it?

5. This always bugged me.. How does a guy with a 105 lbs skelleton swim? Logan jumps in the water twice in this movie.. wouldn't he just sink to the bottom?

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Old 04-29-2009, 01:53 PM   #18
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Okay, I hope there's not already a thread like this.

After seeing the movie in the cinema yesterday, I left with a few questions on my mind. Most of these are little, silly things, and I don't mean to make a big fuss about any of them. But they left me with that 'huh?' sensation, and I wondered what anybody else thought of them.. Maybe someone's got some explanations to save a poor girl from being confused?

There's definately spoilers here for who hasn't seen the movie yet, btw.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

5. This always bugged me.. How does a guy with a 105 lbs skelleton swim? Logan jumps in the water twice in this movie.. wouldn't he just sink to the bottom?

Big problem for me too.

I've always thought it was canon that Logan couldn't swim. I think this was played on in the X-Men Evolution series.

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Old 04-29-2009, 02:23 PM   #19
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Big problem for me too.

I've always thought it was canon that Logan couldn't swim. I think this was played on in the X-Men Evolution series.
In the comics Logan can totally swim. He's killed sharks and fought sea-mutants and the whole mess. So comic-book wise, at least, he's a swimmer, even with the extra weight.

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Old 04-29-2009, 02:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Wolverine gets shot in the head with adamantium bullets. You can see quite clearly that the bullet penetrates his skull. After that, he slowly heals again. We never see the bullet pop out of his skull though, so I'm wondering: is that bullet still wandering somewhere inside his skull? And if so, wouldn't it dent his brain and thus leave Wolvie with a severe brain damage?
mmmm... the bullet is in his head, or made en exit wound... if it is in his head, probably brain grew around it...

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2. In the movie, Scott meets Logan. So, okay, he doesn't see him. But he hears him. Wouldn't he recognize the voice in X1?
And Xavier? Didn't nobody tell this guy who saved them? Wouldn't he already 'know' Wolverine pre-X1?
Scott might recongnize his voice, or not... Not sure about what should Xavier know, but I still trying to figure out where did he came up with Alkali Lake in X-Men in the first place

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3. While we're at it, why doesn't Sabretooth know him in X1?
Well, if Logan got a adamantium bullet, Creed probably got a Addamantium plane crashing on his head, and a sandwich of kryptonite, to end up like in X1

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4. Why does Stryker at some point call Jim/James/Wolverine Logan all of the sudden? This sudden change of name is never explained, is it?
I wonder that too... yesterday I started to ckeck where he is first called Logan, and is Silverfox who does it... but maybe that was his name while in Team X, 'cause Fred calls him like that when they fight later...

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Old 04-29-2009, 02:48 PM   #21
Infinity9999x
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Default Re: Wolverine Origins Clarifications?

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I am not sure if your right or not because iam not familiar with his origin like others on here. But you definetley impressed me with that . Good job man.

He's not correct in some of his "corrections" as you will see in some of my above posts.

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Old 04-29-2009, 03:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

Here's one that's been freaking bugging me for the last 24 hours since I watched the film:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Now, the yellow and black jacket that Wolvie gets from the old man farmer guy: is that, or is it not the same jacket he wears in X-men, the first film?

So, in the last fight, all he's wearing is his white, sleaveless wife-beater. Hang on, did he even have his jacket on in the plane, with Gamit?
Then, he gets shot in the head, and loses ALL OF HIS MEMORY!

Here's the deal: When did he get the jacket back!? Did he lose everything except the memory of the chair he hung his jacket over? Did he see another identical jacket in the shop and say "Oh, I really like that jacket, for some weird subconcious reason" and promptly purchase it?

I only saw X-men once so that rant might be totally for nothing if I'm wrong about him having that jacket in X-men so forgive me if thats the case.

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Old 04-29-2009, 03:36 PM   #23
Kanon
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Default Re: Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

The jacket is identical, at the least... good point about getting it back

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Old 04-29-2009, 03:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

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The jacket is identical, at the least... good point about getting it back
The jacket isn't identical, it's close but not identical.

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Old 04-29-2009, 03:52 PM   #25
Jacky
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Default Re: Questions about the movie after seeing it [spoilers!]

Spoonz, you're right! I did notice that jacket as well, I forgot to put it in the list above. Maybe he happened to stumble across it on his way off the island?
I thought it was a nice touch, btw, that little detail of how he got the jacket. But it did get a little messy since he left the movie without it, indeed.

And Kanon, good point about Alkali Lake.

Also:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
About Stryker's son: in X2 we hear that Xavier schooled him for a while. Afterwards (or during that time) he came home and killed his mother. Right? But in Origins Styker mentions the same killing... So, we can only conclude that Xavier knew Stryker before then? ...This is a little strange, isn't it?

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