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View Poll Results: Conspiracies? Fun or Frightening?
Fun 4 40.00%
Frightening 4 40.00%
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:53 PM   #76
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Not much of an attempt... You would be dead if you were seriously attempting to gain entrance to area 51

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:03 PM   #77
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

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Not much of an attempt... You would be dead if you were seriously attempting to gain entrance to area 51
Obviously.

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

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Originally Posted by adhokk7 View Post
I think this one attempt at trespassing onto a military base will be enough for me. That's better left to younger, drunker people.
Makes you wonder why one of those "news crews" just doesn't go with a Satellite feed camera and continue to shoot as they drive, and the studio records everything off-site. It would make interesting television. The security can't sue of you put their faces on tv, or you'll know their names. They can't deny where they are because you can track satellite. Huh, I should be a tv producer.

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:10 PM   #79
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Oh you're boned now. Took and posted photos of photo restricted photo opportunities. I bet there are black helicopters hovering above taking photos of your house right now.

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:14 PM   #80
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

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Originally Posted by VampElvis View Post
Oh you're boned now. Took and posted photos of photo restricted photo opportunities. I bet there are black helicopters hovering above taking photos of your house right now.
Fortunately, I'm wearing my tin foil hat, so I should be fine.

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:15 PM   #81
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

So was Vamp.


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Old 04-13-2009, 10:23 PM   #82
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

I remember reading 3-4 years ago, I think in PopSci that there was an area in Ohio (not Wright-Patterson) where most of the actually black ops stuff was moved to and Area51 was more or less a show pony duping the rubes.

However, this is the perfect opportunity to segue into alien political realm.
http://www.exopolitics.org/
Yes, this is a serious movement (at least to those involved).

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Old 04-13-2009, 10:40 PM   #83
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

Cheney = Bill
Cheney's Secret assassination squad = Deadly Viper Assassination Squad

Kill Bill Reference!

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Old 04-13-2009, 11:00 PM   #84
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

Are you saying that Dick Cheney secretly has a lisp?

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Old 04-13-2009, 11:13 PM   #85
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

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Originally Posted by psychocheeseman View Post
I think the point he is making is that this particular part of the JSOC is not being held accountable for its actions as none of the alleged deeds are being tabled before congress (or indeed anywhere other than cheney's dep)
There is a good reason our classified operations are not brought before open congress. Because they're CLASSIFIED! You need a closed committee with the proper clearances in order to even discuss JSOC operations. Half of these jokers in congress have records and wouldn't even come close to qualifying for a clearance if they were normal people.

While JSOC may not be directly responsible to congress, they are under the microscope that is DoD.

But I digress, do you think all of our clandestine activities should be open and reported to congress and the public?

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Old 04-13-2009, 11:19 PM   #86
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

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A tradition which needs to end.
Why?

You have strong evidence that perp A has committed acts of terror/crimes against humanity. You have orders to capture or kill this individual. The question is, do you capture this person for the intelligence/interrogation value, or do you eliminate them because they're the ******* teaching new recruits how to make bombs?

Or should we find them, sit down with them and kindly ask them to stop blowing people up.

It's not like these targets are randomly pulled out of a hat of "possible suspects" and given the go ahead.

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Old 04-14-2009, 01:31 AM   #87
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

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Originally Posted by V1P3Rt3Ch View Post
While JSOC may not be directly responsible to congress, they are under the microscope that is DoD.
i think you missed the allogation that this branch was reporting to Cheney's office and not in any detail to the JSOC.

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Originally Posted by V1P3Rt3Ch View Post
There is a good reason our classified operations are not brought before open congress. Because they're CLASSIFIED! You need a closed committee with the proper clearances in order to even discuss JSOC operations. Half of these jokers in congress have records and wouldn't even come close to qualifying for a clearance if they were normal people....
But I digress, do you think all of our clandestine activities should be open and reported to congress and the public?
"clandestine activities" make a mockery of any rational attempts to form rational and effective public policy. How can government function properly when one arm is acting totally independently, in an unaccountable fashion with no communication with the other branches. They are in a sense outside of government. Breaching another nations sovereignty and committing crimes on their soil undoubtedly affects international relations, and in this circumstance does so in a way which the real government cannot prepare for as they have no knowledge of what's really going on.

A well running government relies on communication between departments, (i'm not necessarily including congress - but the upper echelons of the public service, including perhaps the CIA and and ambassadors in other countries) it is counter productive to hide information from itself. It will result in bad policy (flawed because it may be working against itself) and possible detrementally affect relations with other nations.


I understand the need for national security - but you also have to accept that governments must be accountable for their actions i.e the executive must be accountable to congress, congress must be accountable to the people etc. Government is for the people, Not the other way around.

I don't believe governments should be engaged in "clandestine activities, But if the are going to do so they can't just be regulated by one small part of the executive - we have the separation of powers rprecisely to prevent this kind of power which is (if not ipso facto corrupt) open for corruption.

Members of congress - no matter how stupid or previously dodgey - are democratically elected by the people and for the people . In a representative democracy even if the public is not to know something, we expect them to be informed.

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Why?

You have strong evidence that perp A has committed acts of terror/crimes against humanity. You have orders to capture or kill this individual. The question is, do you capture this person for the intelligence/interrogation value, or do you eliminate them because they're the ******* teaching new recruits how to make bombs?
Firstly, If there was strong evidence of a criminal act perpetrated why are they so secretive about it? If you have strong evidence get them extradited or work with the other nations to ensure their capture and trial in that country.

Secondly, The US doesn't have the authority to murder people in other countries. They're the US government, not the world government.

thirdly, Hll yeah you capture them - you have to make sure they'r ethe right person first - and that they have actually done what you are suggesting they have done in the first place. And how do we do that? In civilised societies we have inquests, tribunals and trials.

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Or should we find them, sit down with them and kindly ask them to stop blowing people up.
well yes, after they are arrestted it would probably be a good idea to ask them why they have been trying to blow people up - and maybe ask them what would make them stop (obviously they'd stop anyway being in gaol or dead but it would give the world a better idea of how to reduce the number of other people doing teh same thing - ie maybe solving the problems that are causing people to get pissed off and kill others)

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It's not like these targets are randomly pulled out of a hat of "possible suspects" and given the go ahead.
how do we know if there's no accountability. It'd be like if police didn't have to record names or crimes of people and there were no trials in the US. How would you know that little billy down the street really deserved to have that lethal injection...


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Big deal, this has been happening since kennedy decide death squads were fun right before starting the vietnam war, every president since him has had this around. If you want to go after cheney everyone that's been involved in the past should be held accountable as well. I'm not being "yay cheney" here, the guy's a complete dick but doing this is just continuing a tradition at this point.
a continuing, highly illegal, tradition. Also - pretty sure President ford or Carter made an executive decree outlawing such actions - and unless Bush overturned them - that would make Cheney's actions Ultra vires (without the legal authoriyt in the US)

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Old 04-14-2009, 09:22 AM   #88
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

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It started before Kennedy. I believe it was Eisenhower who set up the coup that ousted the elected Iranian president and put in The Shah. And it was Johnson who started Vietnam. Kennedy was already dead. Granted he did try to assassinate Castro. Close, but no (Cuban) cigar.
While I'm sure every president in history has done something similiar, it was kennedy that regularly used hit squads instead of silly things like diplomacy. Kennedy did start the war, he had troops, naplam and free fire zones all over the area. Johnson just made it official, if kennedy was still alive it would have been worse. Nice bad pun there.


psychocheeseman: I think it was congress that outlawed outright assassinations, but I could be wrong on that. It's always been pretty illegal and awful as a practice, but I highly doubt it would stop. I know clinton ordered hits as well, I agree with most of those though.

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Old 04-14-2009, 10:26 AM   #89
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

I dunno if I'm so cool with...the political assassinations.

I mean, it's nothing new.

But, I always thought that should be the Presiden't call. Not the Vice.

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Old 04-14-2009, 11:45 AM   #90
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

That'd be awesome.

If AREA 51...was really the building and staging ground for METAL GEAR !!!

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Old 04-14-2009, 02:59 PM   #91
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Heaven help us, we need to find the Chinese Area 51 - they can control the dolphins! http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_11184581.htm

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Old 04-14-2009, 03:53 PM   #92
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Well...if there's a Japanese Area 51, there will most certainly be a Metal Gear there.

Or another giant, weaponized, mech.

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Old 04-14-2009, 03:56 PM   #93
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Sounds like you'd support our immediate development, in Area 51, of either a Gigantor or Voltron of our own. Start the petition now!

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Old 04-14-2009, 04:01 PM   #94
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

I want a Metal Gear.

Just so I can look up, and yell...."Metal Gear?!!"

But, this could be the future arms race.

The Arms Race of Weaponized Mechs.

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Old 04-14-2009, 04:13 PM   #95
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Default Re: Cheney's Secret assassination squad

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocheeseman View Post
i think you missed the allogation that this branch was reporting to Cheney's office and not in any detail to the JSOC.
It doesn't work that way. First the guy is quoted from his speech at the U of M talking about a secret assassination squad. But in this interview he backpedals saying that there were lists that were "cleared through the vice presidents office." A list that's given a stamp of approval does not equate to a "secret assassination squad." It means intelligence community professionals went through and did an assessment of known dangerous persons. Most likely, then some general put his stamp of approval on it and sent it up the chain with all the other paperwork to get a seal of approval.


Quote:
"clandestine activities" make a mockery of any rational attempts to form rational and effective public policy. How can government function properly when one arm is acting totally independently, in an unaccountable fashion with no communication with the other branches.
What unaccountability? All that's required is a closed session congressional inquiry. "Clandestine activities" are by no means out of bounds. Would you want someone who's being monitored to know they were being targeted? No, you would want them to remain oblivious so you could track their movements and collect even more information so you can do one of three things. You try to catch the big fish, use the intel to stop impending attacks or you take said individual out because of their past actions and the future danger they pose.

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They are in a sense outside of government. Breaching another nations sovereignty and committing crimes on their soil undoubtedly affects international relations, and in this circumstance does so in a way which the real government cannot prepare for as they have no knowledge of what's really going on.
You're forgetting that our agencies as well as our military are bound to and follow the USC (title 10? title 50 anyone?). The military is even more stringent with it's red tap as it has to follow the LOAC when engaged in combat activities (including black ops). There is a process in place where our operations first go through a legal "filter" where our plans are given the "yay" or "nay" based on our legal obligations. We're the only ones playing by the rules in the fist place!

Quote:
A well running government relies on communication between departments, (i'm not necessarily including congress - but the upper echelons of the public service, including perhaps the CIA and and ambassadors in other countries) it is counter productive to hide information from itself. It will result in bad policy (flawed because it may be working against itself) and possible detrementally affect relations with other nations.
I agree with you here. However, for some reason I don't believe that a list of high priority targets wouldn't be seen by someone who makes decisions in the intelligence hierarchy. And as far as bringing in officials from target countries, it would depend on the political climate of that country as well as possible corruption. How likely is "hush hush" information to get out and alert the target that they are being watched?


Quote:
I understand the need for national security - but you also have to accept that governments must be accountable for their actions i.e the executive must be accountable to congress, congress must be accountable to the people etc. Government is for the people, Not the other way around.
Agreed. As a member of the armed forces, I assure you I've gone through more red tape in my life than someone trying to do a makeshift daredevil costume.

If you really want to know the truth, get a job in government and get a clearance so you can see things for yourself.

Quote:
I don't believe governments should be engaged in "clandestine activities, But if the are going to do so they can't just be regulated by one small part of the executive - we have the separation of powers rprecisely to prevent this kind of power which is (if not ipso facto corrupt) open for corruption.
While I disagree with your statement on clandestine activities, I agree with you that no one person should make the decisions. That's why there are so many levels in the chain of command.

Analyst --> targets --> NCO --> NCOIC --> JAG --> OIC --> Commander --> various group/wing/brigade commanders --> Joint forces commander --> Joint Chiefs --> SECDEF --> Executive Branch

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Members of congress - no matter how stupid or previously dodgey - are democratically elected by the people and for the people . In a representative democracy even if the public is not to know something, we expect them to be informed.
If they are to be trusted with sensitive information, then yes. If they clearly do not meet the criteria, then no. I would not want someone who is not trustworthy enough to handle national security information to have it just because they're a representative. I believe you should have to meet this criteria before even running for a representative position in the government. But that's all just my opinion, take it as you wish.

Quote:
Firstly, If there was strong evidence of a criminal act perpetrated why are they so secretive about it? If you have strong evidence get them extradited or work with the other nations to ensure their capture and trial in that country.
With this we get to the reason we do clandestine activities in the first place. Perhaps a government is corrupt or they don't have the means to publicly endorse our actions. Pakistan is a perfect example, just today they legalized islamic law within a region due to political pressure caused by attacks from the right-wing militants in that country. So here we have a government, cow tailing to militants in its country, unable to control it's northern "sovereign" regions where known terrorists are taking refuge. So do we let the militants sit pretty and safe while Pakistan waffles on what it wants to do? Or do we do our job, to prevent attacks around the globe by hunting down these dangerous people?

Clandestine activities are done for a very political reason, not just to do it because we're America and we think we can strong arm whoever we can. If a government had the means to capture and extradite these individuals, then I agree with you that it should be done publicly. Otherwise, the ends justify the means.

Quote:
Secondly, The US doesn't have the authority to murder people in other countries. They're the US government, not the world government.
This is a moral argument. If you see someone getting raped, are you going to intervene and hold that person captive until the cops get there? That would be illegal imprisoning someone as civilians do not have the right to make arrests.

If I know Joe Bombmaker is in a house, just a crossed the boarder, do I let him go because of an imaginary line in the dirt? I wouldn't.

Quote:
thirdly, Hll yeah you capture them - you have to make sure they'r ethe right person first - and that they have actually done what you are suggesting they have done in the first place.
Lol, if someone gets put on a "capture or kill" list, they're on it for a reason. That's all I can say about that.

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And how do we do that? In civilised societies we have inquests, tribunals and trials.
And proper intelligence gathering. At least that's the way we do it in the real world.

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well yes, after they are arrestted it would probably be a good idea to ask them why they have been trying to blow people up - and maybe ask them what would make them stop (obviously they'd stop anyway being in gaol or dead but it would give the world a better idea of how to reduce the number of other people doing teh same thing - ie maybe solving the problems that are causing people to get pissed off and kill others)
Now you're talking about psychological profiling of said individuals, something that's already been done by the time someone has been put on a "capture or kill" list. Take a few psychology courses mixed with counter-terrorism courses and you'll see where both come into play. But you missed my point. These are not individuals that are willing to talk to you, or listen to what you have to say. If they did, they would hear the outcries for peace from the world and stop their activities.

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how do we know if there's no accountability. It'd be like if police didn't have to record names or crimes of people and there were no trials in the US. How would you know that little billy down the street really deserved to have that lethal injection...
A complete hard line opposite end of the spectrum comparison. What you're saying is that part of the US Military is going on unchecked rogue missions to kill whoever they want. Logistically that's a hard thing to do.

General: "I need bravo company to do this mission!"

Capt: "Uh.. they're ... unavailable... all of them..."

General: "What? Where are they?"

Capt: "Antiquing?"

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Old 04-14-2009, 04:19 PM   #96
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As a member of the armed forces, I assure you I've gone through more red tape in my life than someone trying to do a makeshift daredevil costume.
This is the best thing I've read in days.

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Old 04-14-2009, 04:50 PM   #97
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Snake??


SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKEEE!!

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Old 04-14-2009, 05:13 PM   #98
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Area 51 is for tourists. The real stuff is at Black Mesa

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Old 04-14-2009, 05:14 PM   #99
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

Black mesa?!!!

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Old 04-14-2009, 05:16 PM   #100
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Default Re: Conspiracy about Area 51

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Black mesa?!!!
Yes, Black Mesa from Half-Life.

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