![]() |
![]() |
#651 | ||
Not lactose, it's milk!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 15,235
|
![]() Quote:
__________________
"I hate you, I hate you, I don't even know you and I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you, and nobody else but you." Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#652 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,859
|
![]()
You have way too much hate in your hearts.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#653 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 19,612
|
![]()
i'm sure the kids are b1#ching about the twins as much as everyone else is
__________________
"I care because filmmakers now make films under crippling security because of parasitic gossip. makes movies worse" -James Mangold. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#654 |
Ronin
SHH! Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Snow-covered Mountain top
Posts: 152,483
|
![]()
Don't know if I'd consider them racist, ppl are so touchy over PC stuff these days I tend not to give a **** unless it's done in an aggressive/hateful/violent way, but I will say I found the Twins a lot more annoying than Jar Jar.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#655 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,128
|
![]()
I thought they were funny. A tad forced at times, but overall I enjoyed them. Nothing's more annoying than Jar Jar. Racial sensitivity aside, that voice drove me nuts.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#656 |
Hooper Drives The Boat!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 2,670
|
![]()
Youssa is bombad!
__________________
My reviews: Amazing Spider-Man Rock of Ages Prometheus Battleship Dark Shadows The Avengers The Five-Year Engagement Wrath Of The Titans The Hunger Games |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#657 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,128
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#658 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,755
|
![]()
The Guard,
You keep saying I generalize. Perhaps in some instances I have, so much of this conversation is about our opinions after all, but I've also tried to place my thoughts in a historical context to show you that I'm not making all this up. Are you telling me that you haven't generalized about any of your points? Your responses pretty much amount to, that's not someone's intention (how do you know exactly?) or a kind of moral relativism that says we are all racists so no one is, now take that Dar Kush. And then you try to keep bringing this back to Bay after I've written pages of stuff about the history of cinema regarding negative black depictions to show that Bay may be part of a continuum, and not the whole show. As for black roles, that's not what I mean. There are some roles, historical roles that should have black people in them, and the same for other groups. But what I'm getting at is there not being limits placed on roles, in Hollywood's or audience's minds on roles that black actors should try for, that are not race-specific. We have a ways to go in that regard. As for Halle, I disagree with you. It was the buzz surrounding Halle that prompted Bryan Singer to place her in the film to begin with. She might not have been a megastar by that point. But if you look back at the X-films, the Scott-Jean-Wolverine triangle was at the center of those films. They let Cyclop's character slide by X3, but the three of them got more screentime and overall more development than Halle, even though Halle helped sell the pictures perhaps more than anyone but Hugh Jackman. It's good that we have Will, Denzel, Sam, Jamie, Morgan, etc. It gives you about five or six people you can bring up, but despite the success of those black actors and many others, how many other white actors are on that level or above that level? Let's do a count? And how many black actors are carrying films compared to white actors? How many black actors are sex idols, an important facet of the Hollywood machine, compared to white actors? And how many of these actors, and particularly the younger actors, dominate the celebrity magazines and othe outlets that help burnish their careers and star potential? You admit there is inequality in Hollywood. I agree, but if there is inequality, what group(s) are benefitting and what group(s) aren't or haven't? How many love scenes has any of these men had on screen? How many romances have they had? And for the movies that had love scenes how many were watched and supported by white audiences? I bring up love scenes because its an important part of being a movie idol, love and sex are a big part of many character's development, and there is still a reluctance to show black people doing such things. We've moved forward, but the idea of blacks as fully realized characters on screen, characters that don't just exist to help their white colleagues along on their journeys or adventures, we still have a way to go. About comics....Comic companies already do bend over to satisfy subsets of groups, just like books, movies, and TV companies? Ever heard of the term genre? Or niche markets? Engaging an audience, finding new markets to sell to, is a part of capitalism. But I think the comic book companies, as the book publishers a generation before did, hurt themselves by largely ignoring the black market. I mentioned the lesser known comic book films to show you that many of the obscure ones on the list might suffer from the same lack of mass audience familiarity that black heroes do, so you can't float that the black comics aren't that well known argument as a basis for it. Also, when you look at a lot of these films, under your reasoning many of them wouldn't have been made until after the heavy hitters were made. The facts, obviously, haven't born that out. There is a mix of time, opportunity, funding, etc. that have gone into these projects being greenlighted and it hasn't really gone along some kind of assembly line, until recently with Marvel films. DC just kept giving us more Batman and Superman, and neglecting everyone else on the silver screen. So now black comic properties are languishing because there isn't passion behind them? Can you prove that? There are quite a few people working in the industry that I can name that probably have the passion you say is lacking for black comic properties: John Singleton has expressed interest in Luke Cage, Wesley in Black Panther, Reginald Hudlin (one time exec at BET, filmmaker and outgoing writer of the Black Panther comic book), Denzel has expressed interest in doing a hero film, Dwayne McDuffie (co-creator of Milestone comics, writer for JL/JLU cartoons, Ben 10). Some of the problems surrounding the lack of black hero movies, such as the tangled up Luke Cage project, and Wesley's aborted attempts to launch Black Panther have befallen a lot of movies, but the continued lack to try again might have some roots in the concern or 'conventional wisdom' that a black hero film would be too risky. And the main question for me is why is that? In closing, this thread was created to discuss whether the twins in RoTF were racist or racially offensive. That generally means this is going to be an issue about racial topics. I never said that all of the issues concerning blacks are racial. I believe I even said it in my last post to make it clear. However, there are some issues that are, or are the lingering remnants of past racial discrimination. I know other people have adversities, and others have had racial adversity, but does that lessen the racial discrimination faced by blacks? And should it not be talked about in a thread that was created to see if the posters thought the twins were black stereotypes? Sticking our heads in the sand and acting like these things didn't happen and sometimes still don't, won't erase the fact that they did happen, or arm us with all the information to address when racial issues flare up. One more thing...In the recent Newsweek, Raina Kelley wrote an article entitled "The Roots of Racism" (http://www.newsweek.com/id/203695) in which she mentions the results of a test conducted last year. Here are her words: "So, I was actually excited to read about a new study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in which researchers from the University of Washington confirmed the validity of the Implicit Association Test (IAT). The IAT made a lot of news late last year when results showed that 70 percent of those who took it harbor an unconscious preference for white people over black people. And no, I'm not talking about 70 percent of white people—I mean people of all races who took it, including African-Americans." You can debate the test findings if you want, but it reminds me of Dr. Kenneth Clark's famous doll tests used to show the debilitating psychological effects on black children that attended segregated schools and that research was used in the Brown v. Board of Education decision. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clark_(doll_test) That was fifty years ago, and if these negative images still linger, what could be the cause of that? Could it be aided by the media and an overrepresentation of negative black images? As I said before, the point of my posts was to put out there that the idea of the twins being racist could be a possibility, based on negative images from other films and in other media. It's not something that would be left-field for me. I also expounded on that to talk about possible implications of that negative imaging. I saw the thread trending toward a blanket dismissal of the idea, without most people even saying why they didn't think it was racist at all. You've at least provided counter-arguments, fleshing out your ideas more than most, so I appreciate the dialogue. We need more dialogue and not tit-for-tat, but at the same time I feel this is starting to devolve into a tit-for-tat situation and I have little more to say about the matter...unless of course your reply brings me back out onto the field ![]() Last edited by DarKush; 07-03-2009 at 06:43 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#659 |
Cloud kicks ass
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Liverpool, UK.
Posts: 34,766
|
![]()
Agreed, I didnt find them annoying at all, I thought they were funny and likable, and the way young Autobots caught up in something beyond their comprehension, but who really shine through in the end.
__________________
2018 movie ratings out of 10:
1)A Quiet Place-9(2)Black Panther-9(3)The Shape of Water-8.5(4)Ready Player One-8(5)Tomb Raider-7(6)Pacific Rim Uprising-7 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#660 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 31,826
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Are you asking me if people are saying "Well, a black person should only play these types of roles"? No, I, based on my limited experience in Hollywood, don't think they are, at least, in general (see what I did there?). I think those types of roles are what sells to the mainstream, or what studios think the mainstream public wants because the movies with those roles in them have been generally (I did it again!) successful, so that's what types of roles creators keep "coming up with" and putting in films. Quote:
Jean got some development, because its inherent to her character. She becomes Phoenix, and then Dark Phoenix. But what development did Cyclops get, exactly, over the course of three films? He lost his girl, but that sort of just happened to him. The only real development he ended up getting was recognizing he would have to take over if Xavier died, learning to get along with Wolverine (sort of) and then losing it when Jean died, sinking into obsession a bit, and deciding the X-Men weren't that important anymore. Of course Cyclops and Jean got more screentime than she did. They were both part of a very visible love triangle involving Logan, and they're frankly, more important characters than Storm is to the X-Men mythology. Quote:
What does "level" mean, exactly? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm talking about movies. We're talking two different animals here. Studios make movies for the general public. Now, they may put elements into their movies that draw many different subsets of the population, but studios do not, in general, only seek to attract some miniscule portion of the population like "black comic book fans". Comic book fans are already only a tiny part of the general population. A studio deciding to aim their film at an even smaller portion of the population, black comic book fans, just doesn't make good business sense. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Generally when a hero is not well written, it's one of two things: A lack of a desire to work on said character by talented writers, which amounts to a lack of passion, or a lack of talent across the board, which...just doesn't seem realistic. Quote:
Quote:
You're asking me why your own theory might be true? I don't know, it's your theory, not mine. Quote:
But implying "It's because of race, isn't it?" every single time you see a disparity seems counterproductive to me. Quote:
I'm not going to debate the test findings, because I know squat about the test or the testing groups. Here's my issue with such a test. Of course "stereotypes" exist. People may well think one thing immediately. My issue is this: I believe that people, by and large (another generalization!), are capable of getting beyond that, and reasoning out an actual element of society, not just going through life thinking "Gang member" every time they see a black man, and not moving beyond that, despite their experiences. For instance, if someone says "Indian", and I automatically think "Attacking cowboys and making weird noises" because that's the stereotype I saw a lot as I developed as a young child, I, because I have experience beyond that stereotype, am able to quickly think of both positive, negative and more diverse images of Indians and many ideas surrounding them than that single thought or idea that came to mind. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me Last edited by The Guard; 07-03-2009 at 05:17 PM. |
||||||||||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#661 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,755
|
![]()
The Guard,
How can you assume that people know what racism is? Obviously there is some debate about that. Of course, unless everyone should just accept your defintion. As for the twins, the stereotypes they might display could be a product of racist attitudes or beliefs about black people. You asked can I prove anything that I say. I've provided more background information on most of my points that you have. Most of your answers amount to shrugging your shoulders and saying something to the effect of "Gee, that's the way things are" or "Life isn't fair." I'm starting to get tired of you twisting my words. I never said black hero movies weren't made. In fact, I listed the ones that were before (though I forgot Undercover Brother). Please reread my posts before accusing me of saying things I didn't. But I did express concern that fears of marketability, perhaps on racial attitudes or preconceptions-conscious or unconscious-might also factor into the reason we haven't seen more of them. I never said that most of the things discussed happen solely because of race, but that race might be a factor. And owing to our history, it was not one I would just dismiss out of hand. How many times do I need to repeat this? I provided a list of black people who probably display the passion, not to mention the experience, to do hero films with black heroes in response to you saying there was a lack of passion. Then you just say that interest isn't enough, but you're one that brought up the issue in the first place. When I provided names you tried to deflect it. Are you telling me that Hollywood doesn't do some form of demographic targeting? I'm sure that they would like to get maximum audience participation for every movie, but some movies are made for certain audiences (i.e. horror). And there are even TV shows and movies targeted to the black audience. Tyler Perry has built his media empire primarily on black consumers. (Let me say this, just because the target audience might be black, doesn't mean these products are exclusive only to black audiences. I think that's part of the problem, a feeling that if the product is considered 'too black' then white audiences or international audiences won't support it. This happened with Todd McFarlane's Spawn film. They wanted him to make one of the main characters white to avoid the dreaded tag of being a black film. I would like, one day, for black people and their experiences to be seen as just as universal and normative as white people and their experiences have been portrayed). As for the 'miniscule' (your word) black comics audience, I had some ideas about why I think that audience hasn't grown (perhaps because it has never been fully cultivated), but I never asked for movies specifically for that audience. I want to see black hero movies that everyone goes to see, just like many black people support hero movies with white heroes. I would hope one day that the idea of having black hero movies is not something that might be seen as too risky. We've had a couple but I would like to see more. Also, you still have not proved that there is a model for when or why certain comic properties get made as opposed to others. If race isn't a factor, then what is? And if popularity or the character isn't interesting enough is your answer, why is it that almost every black character mentioned isn't interesting to you? It's not a question of people automatically thinking 'gang member' when they see a black man walking down the street for example. It's more an issue of if you give a person several photographs and ask them to pick out the likeliest gang member and they pick out the black one. I think films that use racial stereotyping, perhaps even as punchlines, don't help racial understanding, don't help 'reason out' lingering prejudicial racial attitudes. I'm getting tired of dancing with you. You've agreed that there is inequality in Hollywood, yet you seem to have no problem with it. I do. Let's boil it down, you don't think the twins were racist. I don't know because I haven't seen the film, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were based on what I've read about the film in particular and what I've seen in the past and to some extent the present with negative racial imaging in Hollywood. Let's agree to disagree and move on with our lives. Last edited by DarKush; 07-04-2009 at 06:23 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#662 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Here.
Posts: 2,506
|
![]()
I won't say the Twins were racist, but they were very racially insensitive, and annoying. Jazz in TF1 was a cool, hip hop transformer, while these two were annoying negative stereotypes that were highly more annoying than funny. The exaggerated features, the line about being uneducated, and the dialect was just really insensitive and made for two annoying characters that I hope are killed quickly in TF3 by Megatron, as he said to Sam, "Slowly. Painfully."
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#663 |
Comics,Games,Movies
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 511
|
![]()
Am i the only one who didn't find them that annoying, i thought they were funny and i was able to look at them as transformer versions of teenage mutant ninja turtles.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#664 |
WTF face
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Limerick
Posts: 41,233
|
![]()
I liked them.
__________________
Hitler on a cob is a disturbing image. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#665 | ||||||||||||||||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 31,826
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Darth...you broadening this argument isn't going to help you defeat my points about studios and comic book films. It's bad business to aim a comic book movie at any one subset of the population. It's just simple numbers. Quote:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure the main reason there's risk involved is that they're more obscure heroes, not just that they're black. If the character was called WHITE PANTHER, there would still be some risk issues, because a big budget movie about a pseudo Tarzan/pseudo Phantom jungle warrior is still kind of risky. That said, hardly anyone outside of comic book fans known who Black Panther is. And let's face it, through he predates the organization, "Black Panther" has a very different connotation to the general public than a jungle dwelling superhero. Quote:
Here are the known heroes, which I define as characters the general public knows about, or well known superhero lore. SPIDER-MAN SPIDER-MAN 2 SPIDER-MAN 3 X-MEN X2 X-MEN: THE LAST STAND WOLVERINE SUPERMAN RETURNS BATMAN BEGINS THE DARK KNIGHT IRON MAN IRON MAN 2 THE FANTASTIC FOUR THE FANTACTIC FOUR: RISE OF THE SILVER SURFER THE HULK THE INCREDIBLE HULK CATWOMAN IRON MAN animated movie BATMAN animated movie SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY WONDER WOMAN animated movie GREEN LANTERN animated movie BATMAN: MYSTERY OF THE BATWOMAN BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER ULTIMATE AVENGERS: THE MOVIE ULTIMATE AVENGERS 2 TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES DRAGONBALL Now, Iron Man's iffy, but I feel enough people knew about him before the movies came out (he had a popular animated series in the 90's) and you can potentially add TRANSFORMERS and TRANSFORMERS: REVENGE OF THE FALLEN to the mix, as they're generally considered superhero fare, and are very well known. And here are the obscure heroes, characters that I imagine most people have never heard of prior to the films, though some of these are debatable. WATCHMEN CONSTANTINE DR STRANGE animated movie BLADE BLADE II BLADE TRINITY THE PUNISHER PUNISHER: WAR ZONE GHOST RIDER HELLBOY HELLBOY II HELLBOY: BLOOD AND IRON HELLBOY: SWORD OF STORMS DAREDEVIL ELEKTRA THE SPIRIT Now, sure, there have been some random superhero movies like HANCOCK, SKY HIGH, or adaptions of things like 300, ROAD TO PERDITION, etc, but I'm talking known quantities here. I think it's pretty obvious that out of existing concepts more known heroes have gotten made than obscure ones. However, I have noticed that as they run out of existing, well known heroes, they're starting to develop unknown heroes more and more JONAH HEX is on the way from WB, and Marvel is developing every damn concept they have. I think it's a matter of time until we get some black superhero movies. Quote:
It's not that the black characters aren't interesting at all. It's that they're not as interesting compared to some other, well known heroes. For instance, I don't find John Stewart as interesting as Hal Jordan. I don't find Black Lightning as interesting as say, Storm. I don't find Luke Cage interesting at all, frankly, as he's pretty much a gimmick that borders on exploitation. Black Panther's pretty interesting, though. I imagine he'll get a movie before the others do. Quote:
Which problem am I supposed to have? That talented young black actors don't get guaranteed breaks In Hollywood? I'm sorry, I think that's a strange distinction to make. Let me be frank here. There is inequality everywhere in this world. Hollywood is probably the best example of it. You can't generally get into Hollywood unless you're incredibly attractive, know someone, or sleep your way in, or some combination of the three. Rarely does any amount of talent you have over other talented people have much, if anything, to do with success there. Blacks potentially have less opportunities than whites in Hollywood. Fair enough. Of course I have a problem with that. What would you like me to do about it? It pales in comparison to the problems I have with things that actually matter than whether someone gets to be a superstar or not. Starvation. Abuse. Crime. Poverty. Ignorance of all kinds. What do you want me to do, type in boldface, "I have a problem with that"? If you wanted to know if it bothered me, and to what extent, you could have, I don't know...asked. Quote:
__________________
"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me Last edited by The Guard; 07-04-2009 at 12:08 PM. |
||||||||||||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#666 |
...
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 49,103
|
![]()
How dare you? Last time I checked Turtles weren't wannabe gangsters. Turtles have way more class. Not even Michaelangelo comes close to the stupidity level of the Twins.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#667 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46,491
|
![]()
there was a little of Mikey inside the twins. they were a little like TMNT. we can not denia that.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#668 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 46,491
|
![]()
so did they mention racism from TF2 on the TV? or is it only on the forums and from some critics?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#669 |
Comics,Games,Movies
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cybertron
Posts: 511
|
![]()
I don't know but for me it seem like they did not push the boundaries of whats considered to be racial or stereotypical, yeah maybe the gold tooth and can't read bit might of been a stretch depending on how you look at it but from what i saw on the big screen was harmless humor. I mean it's not like they pulled a kramer,lol, i think in bayformers all the bots are meant to have various personalities no matter how ridiculous it might seem, not saying that's a good thing but I look at it like this:
1.)They were put in there for hit or miss humor 2.)They were put in there to impress the kiddies 3.)They were Michael Bay's idea so now the viewers have to deal with it if they choose to watch the film. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#670 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 17,958
|
![]()
They should've taken the vehicles and designs (slightly tweaked) and made them Decepticons Runabout and Runamuck instead. Just a thought.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#671 |
...
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 49,103
|
![]()
As I said before, I don't remember the Turtles to be wannabe gangsters. And Michaelangelo is more of a geeky kid with his comics and video games.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#672 |
Newbie
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 12
|
![]()
I didn't hear about anyone getting pissed over a dumb redneck towtruck in the movie Cars.
So if Reno Wilson was okay with doing the voice for the character of Mudflap, then who cares? If he can do it, then I'm sure you can get over it too. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#673 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 19,612
|
![]() Quote:
however, rednecks aren't a visible helpless minority.. bruno comes out in a few weeks, I wonder if all the pc people will still have their panties in a bunch in the face of all the bigotry no matter how good the intentions
__________________
"I care because filmmakers now make films under crippling security because of parasitic gossip. makes movies worse" -James Mangold. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#674 |
Avenger 0
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere in Ohio
Posts: 181
|
![]()
Funny thing is that when I saw the Twins, I saw pink and white (and later red and green). I do not recall once seeing black or brown, so I don't understand all the "outrage" over these character (robots, last time I knew). Another thought that I don't think has been mentioned is that perhaps the robots picked up their personas from watching TV and using the internet (kinda like how Optimus learned English by using the world wide web).
__________________
Avengers Assemble! http://www.krimasen.deviantart.com My art page featuring mainly comic book-styled pics. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#675 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,222
|
![]()
The twins are racist cariactures ... Bay and Spielberg should just retire ... they've lost their abilities as competent filmmakers.
__________________
"We've been down in the series and we've had nonbelievers all the way. I have one thing to say to those nonbelievers, never underestimate the heart of a champion." - Rudy Tomjonavich, 1995. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|