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Old 07-04-2009, 11:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: Official "How you would of done it" Thread

I agree with most of the points made. This film had a TON of potential, and with many of the changes described, could have reached that potential. The Twins could have stayed, just either killed near the end or toned down all together, giving more focus on Sideswipe and Arcee. They did miss the boat on Arcee being Mikeala's protector. I would have gotten rid of the extra decepticons and protoforms for guys like Soundwave, Barricade, a showdown with Sideways and Sideswipe, etc. < You could even have Sideways and Sideswipe have a past together, brothers or friends or something before the war.

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Old 07-04-2009, 12:31 PM   #27
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They used one piece of the shard to revive Megatron. The other piece of the shard could have been used to revive Optimus...it was a plot hole.
How is that a "plot hole"? How does Sam not using the shard to revive Optimus make something else about the plot structurally not work?

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A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.
A plot hole is a structural thing. An error in the actual story framework that makers a subsequent event impossible, not a "Why didn't he do this or that" thing.

Besides, is there a scene in the movie where Sam finds out the shard can bring Transformers back to life? The humans and autobots know the Decepticons want the shard, but do they know why?

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The Fallen not being in the first film and him just setting up there chillin' was a plot hole. You would think that the master of the loyal servant would want his loyal servant to succeed and transform the Earth's machines into robots since it was probably his orders for Megatron to do so. If the cube was found, then the Fallen would obviously want it because they need energon very badly and he wanted energon very badly.
How is is a plot hole?

Because they didn't show him?

That's not a plot hole, either. They didn't show him in ROTF until Megatron left Earth. Megatron never left Earth in TRANSFORMERS, so why would he have seen The Fallen? Why would we have? Obviously Megatron was doing The Fallen's bidding, as The Fallen is a Decepticon, but that doesn't mean he needs to be seen constantly.

A character appearing in a sequel and having relevance to the mythos is not a plothole. It's convenient writing.

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Old 07-04-2009, 03:00 PM   #28
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They are plot holes, inconsistencies that show up due to, as you said, convenient writing. The first movie had plot holes and this movie had plot holes. When you don't use tight writing to introduce new characters and new plots then you create holes in the plot of one movie or both movies. The Fallen wants to destroy the Earth so much and cybertron needs energon so why didn't they just look for the Matrix instead of the cube? The cube could have been any where in the universe but the Fallen knew that the matrix and the sun destroyer was on Earth. So, what makes more sense? Searching the universe for a cube or going to Earth to get the Matrix??? That is a plot hole.

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Old 07-04-2009, 03:24 PM   #29
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For starters, I would've have removed The Twins. Their jokes were stupid and they were not needed at all, plus they were kind of annoying sometimes. It could've been Ratchet or Ironhide joining Bumblebee & Co. in Egipt, that way one of them would've get more screen time too and he would've been able to protect Agent Simmons & Leo!

I would've also removed some of that silly and overrated humor which was pointless and get someone who could write some better jokes! Like I've mentioned, some are really funny, but there were overrated jokes too!

As some members wrote in here, Megatron's rebirth wasn't that interesting or epic or however you like to call it. Perhaps I would've changed that too, but this Movie was focused on the rise of The Fallen, not on the rise of Megatron, so I don't really think it was that important. And yes, The Fallen should've been more of a menace than he was!

There's maybe more, but overall, this is it.

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Old 07-04-2009, 04:00 PM   #30
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Shangai: I'd have Demolishor's attack to be longer. He'd fight the NEST helicopters and jeeps before running. Sideways chase would also be longer, with more Arcee and Sideswipe. Optimus, Ironhide and Ratchet would take Demolishor out together.


. Devastator would be more dynamic. Arcee, Sideswipe, Jolt, Skids and Mudflaps would take them out.

. Scorponok would attack Sam and Mikaela and Sideswipe would fight him.

. Arcee would protect Mikaela from protoforms.

Sideswipe and Arcee kicking more arse. I like that.

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Old 07-04-2009, 06:14 PM   #31
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They are plot holes, inconsistencies that show up due to, as you said, convenient writing. The first movie had plot holes and this movie had plot holes. When you don't use tight writing to introduce new characters and new plots then you create holes in the plot of one movie or both movies. The Fallen wants to destroy the Earth so much and cybertron needs energon so why didn't they just look for the Matrix instead of the cube? The cube could have been any where in the universe but the Fallen knew that the matrix and the sun destroyer was on Earth. So, what makes more sense? Searching the universe for a cube or going to Earth to get the Matrix??? That is a plot hole.
That is not a plot hole, and it's not an inconsistency, either. It is convenient writing. There are multiple good reasons why we didn't see The Fallen in TRANSFORMERS. I notice you ingored them, so I assume you just don't like the answers you've been given, despite the fact that they make perfect sense.

And you clearly don't know what a plot hole is.

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Old 07-04-2009, 06:28 PM   #32
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Please tell me the mutlitude of reasons why the Fallen wasn't in the first movie. Please also tell me why the shard Sam had could not have been used to revive Optimus.

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Old 07-04-2009, 06:37 PM   #33
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So you admit that you don't know what a plot hole is, then?

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Please tell me the mutlitude of reasons why the Fallen wasn't in the first movie. Please also tell me why the shard Sam had could not have been used to revive Optimus.
There aren't a multitude of reasons. There are a few logical ones.You honestly can't figure them out?

1. The Fallen was hiding from Prime, who was alive and well in TRANSFORMERS. If he's not going to come out if Prime is alive in ROTF, why would he do so if Prime was alive in TRANSFORMERS?
2. The Fallen had Decepticons doing his bidding instead of doing it himself. He created the Decepticons entirely for this purpose. Why would he have gone to Earth during TRANSFORMERS? It's like whining that the Emperor never went and took matters into his own hands during A NEW HOPE, when it appears Vader had things well in hand until the end of the movie.
3. The Fallen is irrelevant to the narrative of TRANSFORMERS, so why would we have seen him?

You're either missing or ignoring a major point I have continually made about the shard. Sam would have to know what the shard was capable of in order to revive Optimus. Does he? Is there ever a scene in ROTF that suggests he does? Sam's experience with the shard in ROTF was that it made things into mindless killing machines (except for when it woke up Jetfire), so why would he want to do that with Optimus? He would also have to be near Optimus to bring him back, and Optimus was at a secret military base, was he not? What's Sam going to do...walk into th esecret military base and be like "Give me access to your deceases super alien robot soldier, please"? I'm not trying to be cute here, I'm pointing out logical obstacles to Sam using the shard: Him potentially not knowing its effects, what its capable of, and where the hell Prime is.

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Old 07-04-2009, 06:58 PM   #34
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1. If the Fallen can sense when Prime is dead, he can sense when Prime is alive. Hence, as you said why he was staying away. So, why didn't the Fallen teleport out of there when Optimus was heading towards him or fighting him? If he is truly afraid of a Prime, why didn't he retreat? He is far too proud to retreat but that then begs the questions as to why he didn't fight Optimus in the first film if he isn't really afraid of him. You see how that creates a plot hole? You see how the writing creates a dilemma in the plot?

2. Why didn't he send in more Decepticons then for the first movie? If the cube is so important, why did he only send in a handful of Decepticons? Why didn't he send more of them in for the second movie? You know, when you are losing a battle, you send in more troops if you want to win.

3. The Fallen is irrelevant because he wasn't intended to be in the first movie. But, instead of keeping the writing tight and trying not to expose loose ends, they wrote a script in 2 weeks to get it in before the writer's strike.

Sam knows what the shard is capable of. He witnessed the events of the first movie. He is also running around with Autobots, particularly Bumblebee, who know what the cube is capable of and what is can be used for. Sam told them to dump off Optimus in the middle of a desert so yeah...he can get access to Optimus if he wanted to. It is also lol worthy that you mention Sam not knowing what the shard will do when he doesn't know what the **** the Matrix will do.

Please answer my question as to why the Fallen didn't just go after the Matrix first instead of the cube. You seem to be avoiding that for some reason.

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Old 07-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #35
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TF2 is like Heroes Season 2... they are both rushed storywise. I hope TF3 will have a more polished plot.

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Old 07-04-2009, 08:08 PM   #36
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1. I would have cut some of the lame humor out.

2. I would cut down on some of the screen time that was given to the twins and give it to Jolt,Sideswipe,and team Arcee.

3. I would have made the final battle shorter.

4. I would have had more Autobots help Skids and Mudflap to fight Devastator and would have had him kill people.

5. I would have used a different ending for the movie.

6. I would have had Soundwave to come down to fight in the final battle.

7. I would have made the Fallen a bit more of a threat(fighting wise).

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Old 07-04-2009, 08:10 PM   #37
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TF2 is like Heroes Season 2... they are both rushed storywise. I hope TF3 will have a more polished plot.
Lets hope TF3 isn't like Heroes Season 3

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Old 07-05-2009, 09:08 PM   #38
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I'd fix the inconsistancies, it would just take some editing tweaks.

and I'd also deal with the climax. Although short, it was appropriately brutal. I can live with that. What it lacked was desperation, or the feeling of. I think that stems from the destruction of the machine, before the defeat of the Fallen. I think the final battle, can remain as short, quick and brutal as it was before, but I think the added suspense of the ticking time bomb in the background would have added to the 'end of the world' feeling. This could have been somehow tied in with Simmons saving the world, and actually dying in the process (mind you, I actually love the character, hated him in the first movie, but he totally grew on me in this movie), he would just be in the right place (ie. half way up the pyramid).

Lastly, I would have paralyzed Sam when he got blown up, from the waist down.

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Old 07-05-2009, 11:25 PM   #39
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1. If the Fallen can sense when Prime is dead, he can sense when Prime is alive. Hence, as you said why he was staying away. So, why didn't the Fallen teleport out of there when Optimus was heading towards him or fighting him? If he is truly afraid of a Prime, why didn't he retreat? He is far too proud to retreat but that then begs the questions as to why he didn't fight Optimus in the first film if he isn't really afraid of him. You see how that creates a plot hole? You see how the writing creates a dilemma in the plot?
Wait a minute...

The Fallen didn't fight Optimus in the first film because he's not...really afraid of him...despite the fact that ROTF...showed he was afraid of him?

Swuh?

You're asking me why a fictional character didn't teleport constantly to avoid death in his battle with Prime? Because he's a fictional character, and writers wanted him to die, not port in and out, obviously. The same reason the fictional cops in THE DARK KNIGHT don't get any shots in on Batman or evade his blows. They're supposed to go down.

Quote:
2. Why didn't he send in more Decepticons then for the first movie? If the cube is so important, why did he only send in a handful of Decepticons? Why didn't he send more of them in for the second movie? You know, when you are losing a battle, you send in more troops if you want to win.
Why didn't who send in more Decepticons?

You're asking me why a fictional character who wasn't even seen in the first film didn't summon more Decepticons in the first film? How the hell should I know? I didn't write TRANSFORMERS. Ask the writers.

Quote:
3. The Fallen is irrelevant because he wasn't intended to be in the first movie. But, instead of keeping the writing tight and trying not to expose loose ends, they wrote a script in 2 weeks to get it in before the writer's strike.
Uh...they had three months. The Fallen wasn't mentioned in the first movie because they hadn't decided to use him in the second movie yet. Hey, I know, let's condemn David Goyer and Chris Nolan for not showing Harvey Dent in BATMAN BEGINS, and then daring to bring him into THE DARK KNIGHT.

PLOTHOLE!

(Falls over laughing)

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Sam knows what the shard is capable of. He witnessed the events of the first movie.
Then he knew the following:
1. The Allspark turned regular machines into mindless killing machines (I can't remember, did he even see this happen?)
2. Megatron wanted the Allspark for that purpose
3. Overdosing on the Allspark was fatal

Now, you assuming that he would know that the shard could bring Prime back to life based on those two things is laughable. Nevermind that he would have had to GET TO Prime to use it.

Quote:
He is also running around with Autobots, particularly Bumblebee, who know what the cube is capable of and what is can be used for.
Except that, again...Bumblee may not know this, and there's nothing to suggest he would. All that happens when the shard activates at Sam's is that things turn into mindless killing machines, so that's what Bumblee, like Sam, has to go on.

Quote:
Sam told them to dump off Optimus in the middle of a desert so yeah...he can get access to Optimus if he wanted to.
That wasn't Sam, I don't think, that was Agent Simmons, and that was after Sam had reason to believe that he had something that would heal Optimus. You're suggesting he would have had access to Prime before that? How?

Quote:
It is also lol worthy that you mention Sam not knowing what the shard will do when he doesn't know what the **** the Matrix will do.
He has an inkling. Jetfire says it's connected to the energon machine, and that it has "an energy like no other".

Besides, I'm pretty sure Jetfire absorbed the shard when he powered back up. So Sam couldn't have used it to revive Prime after that.

Quote:
Please answer my question as to why the Fallen didn't just go after the Matrix first instead of the cube. You seem to be avoiding that for some reason.
What the hell are you on about?

You're asking me why The Fallen, a character writers didn't decide would be involved until ROTF, didn't show up in TRANSFORMERS to go after the Matrix instead of the cube?

1. Because as ROTF shows us, Prime existed, he was afraid of Prime, and he had Megatron and the others to do his bidding.

2. Because he didn't know where it was, I would say. That was the whole point of the Primes hiding it, so that he and the Decepticons couldn't find it. The Fallen only found The Matrix when Sam did and he was able to steal it. Before that, he didn't know it's location. Which is why the Decepticons wanted Sam.

Please...stop pointing out things you don't like or understand and just randomly labeling them plotholes. Even after having the term explained to you, you clearly do not understand what it is.

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Old 07-06-2009, 12:44 AM   #40
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Don't know where to start. There was a lot of wasted screentime. From a simplicity standpoint:

- Completely remove the Twins.
- Make the plot more tangible. As it stands, the skeleton of the plot makes some sense, but it was too bogged down in murky mythology to hold weight.
- Cut out Alice and 75% of the college stuff. "Mom getting high" was a complete waste of screentime.
- Make the Devestator an actual threat to something. He was the biggest disappointment in the film, even moreso than The Fallen. I would give the Constructicons an opportunity to shine early in the film, so I could setup their big fusion at the end.
- The Fallen. Oh, The Fallen. The dude gets a movie named after him, and he literally does NOTHING. Simply put, he needed to be a bigger threat. I probably would've held off showing him at all, until the end.

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Old 07-06-2009, 02:51 AM   #41
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Assuming the theatrical version was, say, the rough draft, I'd make these changes for the final:

-Show/explain, give more screen time to Jolt, Sideswipe, and Arcee. Explain Arcee's gender/splitting into three parts deal. Remove the Twins, Mudflap and Skids. Kill off Ratchet and Jolt, and maybe parts of Arcee but not all three. Wheelie less humpy dumpy. Jetfire stays the same except maybe speaking to Optimus, and just combining with him not him dying and getting fused.

-Clear up the whole Constructicon clone mess. Just let the seven of them make up Devastator, and make different character models for the other ones/misc Decepticons. Devastator actually battling Prime, Ironhide, and Sideswipe.

-Less scardy-cat Starscream. Have him lead the Decepticon assaults on Earth with the intension of killing the Autobots and making a new home, but halfway through the film Megatron defeats him in battle and regains rulership. The Constructicons explained as a division of the Decepticons deadfully loyal to Megatron who ressurect him despite Starscream's orders.

-Barricade teamed up with Alice, like his team up with Frenzy. Let him get killed on screen or something, but before doing so have Alice call him for help since Sam runs and he attacks the school. Then gets killed by Autobots.

-The Fallen is not present on Nemesis or anywhere. He's trapped in another dimension that the other Primes sealed him away in. He influences Megatron, but is not his master and not present to tell him what to do. The Matrix/pyramids bring him back to this dimension and then he tries to Harvest the Sun, but fails.

-Explain how Blackout is alive, or don't ressurect him. He AND Megatron can come flying up in the ocean. And no, it's not Grindor, it's Blackout.

-Bumblebee can speak now, and talks. Since the twins aren't accompanying him, maybe Arcee can. I could see humerous interaction between them.

-Prime's stasis lock was okay, but bring him out earlier.

-More of Demolishor and Sideways in the beginning.

-Graham.

-Let the soldiers actually take down a Decepticon, even a prototype form, just so they actually have a purpose in the final battle.

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Old 07-06-2009, 03:58 AM   #42
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Give the other human characters not named Sam something to do.
Cut down on some of the juvenile humor.
Shorten the whole Egyptian exposition about The Fallen.
Make Devastator actually devastate something besides a defenseless pyramid.
Cut down some of Leo's screen time.
NOT show Turturro's backside for ANY reason.
And perhaps the most important thing: Give all the Transformers large, mostly flat-colored armor plates so that people not intimately involved with the movie can SEE who's beating whose ass. And to film more battles zoomed out to the full scale of the Transformers and not the human view.

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Old 07-06-2009, 04:16 AM   #43
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Assuming the theatrical version was, say, the rough draft, I'd make these changes for the final:

-Show/explain, give more screen time to Jolt, Sideswipe, and Arcee. Explain Arcee's gender/splitting into three parts deal. Remove the Twins, Mudflap and Skids. Kill off Ratchet and Jolt, and maybe parts of Arcee but not all three. Wheelie less humpy dumpy. Jetfire stays the same except maybe speaking to Optimus, and just combining with him not him dying and getting fused.

-Clear up the whole Constructicon clone mess. Just let the seven of them make up Devastator, and make different character models for the other ones/misc Decepticons. Devastator actually battling Prime, Ironhide, and Sideswipe.

-Less scardy-cat Starscream. Have him lead the Decepticon assaults on Earth with the intension of killing the Autobots and making a new home, but halfway through the film Megatron defeats him in battle and regains rulership. The Constructicons explained as a division of the Decepticons deadfully loyal to Megatron who ressurect him despite Starscream's orders.

-Barricade teamed up with Alice, like his team up with Frenzy. Let him get killed on screen or something, but before doing so have Alice call him for help since Sam runs and he attacks the school. Then gets killed by Autobots.

-The Fallen is not present on Nemesis or anywhere. He's trapped in another dimension that the other Primes sealed him away in. He influences Megatron, but is not his master and not present to tell him what to do. The Matrix/pyramids bring him back to this dimension and then he tries to Harvest the Sun, but fails.

-Explain how Blackout is alive, or don't ressurect him. He AND Megatron can come flying up in the ocean. And no, it's not Grindor, it's Blackout.

-Bumblebee can speak now, and talks. Since the twins aren't accompanying him, maybe Arcee can. I could see humerous interaction between them.

-Prime's stasis lock was okay, but bring him out earlier.

-More of Demolishor and Sideways in the beginning.

-Graham.

-Let the soldiers actually take down a Decepticon, even a prototype form, just so they actually have a purpose in the final battle.
I like all of those ideas, except killing off Ratchet.

I especially like the idea of Prime, Ironhide and Sideswipe fightning Devastator. That would be amazing.

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Old 07-06-2009, 04:51 AM   #44
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With a lot more competence and originality. ROTF is one of the 25 worst films ever made. It will pass 300 million dollars domestically only because it earned over 200 million in its first five days. NO ONE CAN ARGUE OTHERWISE. I'm surprised this smelting pool of a film didn't rake in 500,000 dollars in its 2nd weekend. It was horrible beyond imagining.

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Old 07-06-2009, 07:37 AM   #45
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1 Reduce the amount of robots in this movie. I do think that the robots need some introduction to the audience and when you're dealing with something like 40 or so robots there just isn't enough time. Therefore remove robots that are there for a couple of seconds ( Skorponok , sideways , pretty much all of the robots that are created during the kitchen sequence) AND the twins . Instead keep arcee & sideswipe as potential spying bots who discover Devastator and give out their information to the NEST team.
Similarly i'd rather have jolt , sideswipe or even the arcee units go on the egypt trip with the bumblebee and the humans instead of the twins. Not only but i'd also focus on Jetfire staying with the group ti help them search for the matrix of leadership.

2 Keep the camera still. Seriously is bay trying to out-shake Paul greengrass when it comes to *****ing the camera. I was thinking back when i watched the first TF in the cinema and while the movie did have it's fair share of shakey cam footage , there were loads of scenes where the camera was kept still. Here Bay really went overboard. I honestly didn't enjoy the much hyped forest battle at all because of this.

3 Like other said. Tone down the humor. Robots farting , dogs humping , robot humping , Turtorro showing his manlove for Sector 7 and the devastor's testicles . It just is too much.
There is more then enough humor IMO coming from sam constantly wisecracking ,the scene with isabel's lucas's character and sam when riding bumblebee and sam's parents ( although even i find "i'd do anyting for an A "comment over the top). Rain Wilson's character could've been better. Definately not the pervert that he is in the movie but someone who could best Sam when it comes to wisecracking.

4 I actually thought that the movie handled Megatron's screentime quite well. DIfferent case with Devastator AND the fallen.
Here you have two robots who are quite formidable. PRime dispatches the fallen in a matter of minutes . If there's this constant focus on the fact that only a prime can kill the fallen what were the other primes then doing ? Smoking pot and banging cavemen ? They have this whole thing that the primes combined power was enough to hide away the matrix of leadership. From which i can only conclude that although a prime can defeat the fallen , it shouldn't be an easy battle. Let the military fight alongside the autobots. And as it's in the movie , they're capable of holding the decepticons at bay. IMO the arrival of the fallen could work wonders. Actually have him tipping the scale in that particular fight by taking down the army.

Ditto with the Devastator. I can understand Bay's manlove for the military and the sneak attack on devastor by firing the railgun. Like i said earlier. Have the arcee twins ,& swideswipe with possibly Jetfire duking it out with Devastator. So instead of the twins battling Devastor , it would be the arcee units and sideswipe.

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Old 07-06-2009, 07:51 AM   #46
marvelman2006
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Default Re: Official "How you would of done it" Thread

I just wish this thing was more polished in terms of quality. Everything felt like a mess and thrown together at the last minute and if what i hear is true then we can blame the writers strike. but i mean so much could have been done in post production that could have helped. Im willing to bet that there are scenes that have more dialogue with jolt and arcee and sideways but were cut to make way for more comedy. overall i just want less comedy and more screen time for the bots and i mean more about who the new bots are what they can do.

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Old 07-06-2009, 09:19 AM   #47
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Default Re: Official "How you would of done it" Thread

Just skimming through some of the posts here. They all seem to say basically the same thing, more screen time for the robots. This poses a couple problems.

First, you need to greratly increase the budget. Everytime you have a Transformer on screen, the "cost-o-meter" is spinning like crazy. Now granted, these films make big money, but the studio is not going to double the budget unless it is certain it's going to get it's money back.

Secondly, if the humans had a very minute role, or were nonexistant, you run the risk of turning off movie-goers. My wife pointed this out to me after watching it. See, she's not a die hard fan like the people on this board. She was greatly entertained by the film, and she was willing to forgive plot holes because of this. But, she told me, that if it was just robots, she would have been bored, just like she was trying to watch the cartoon. The humans in the movie are what sells it to the masses. Not many people are going to buy a movie about giant transforming robots from outer space that the government is totaly unaware of.

Say what you will about Michael Bay, but the guy knows how to make a summer blockbuster. He's directed eight films and only two have not broken $100 million.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/people/...michaelbay.htm

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Old 07-06-2009, 11:04 AM   #48
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Default Re: Official "How you would of done it" Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by brook_33 View Post
And no, it's not Grindor, it's Blackout.
It's Grindor.

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Old 07-08-2009, 01:30 PM   #49
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Default Re: Official "How you would of done it" Thread

I would of liked to see a nice little yet epic battle between starscream and bumblebee.

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