Storm Shadow/Snake Eyes Origin

[spanish39]

So I'm glad they completley ignored what has taken years to explain in the comics to do what they felt worked for Sommers. It ruins all emotional investment into them for me as far as the film goes. There is no real brotherly kind of connection for me. These two GREW together and the film drops the relationship at like 10 year old boys. Lame. No Zartan involved no nothing. Ruined it all.

[mr. peasant]

Here are things worth pointing out though:

1. While I may be wrong, the movie doesn't show Storm Shadow actually killing the Hard Master and I don't think he ever makes such a claim either. This could open the way to a twist in that plot line down the road should Storm Shadow return (which is likely).
2. It's entirely possible that the two of them crossed paths again some time between the Hard Master's death and the events of ROC.

[Nivek]

Don't mention the comics in these parts, they are not that well respected.

[turbo72577]

Originally Posted by Nivek

Don't mention the comics in these parts, they are not that well respected.

Sorry, what do you mean?

[cryptic name]

Originally Posted by spanish39

So I'm glad they completley ignored what has taken years to explain in the comics to do what they felt worked for Sommers. It ruins all emotional investment into them for me as far as the film goes. There is no real brotherly kind of connection for me. These two GREW together and the film drops the relationship at like 10 year old boys. Lame. No Zartan involved no nothing. Ruined it all.

they only show the Hard Master's death from Snake Eyes' point of view, so Zartan could very easily have been involved. i think it's obvious when watching that scene that they are setting it up for a twist, really can't understand how anyone wouldn't see that.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by cryptic name

they only show the Hard Master's death from Snake Eyes' point of view, so Zartan could very easily have been involved. i think it's obvious when watching that scene that they are setting it up for a twist, really can't understand how anyone wouldn't see that.

I wouldn't say there are definitely setting a twist up; just keeping it open. What I mean is that there is certainly room for a twist to be inserted but should the moviemakers decide not to revisit that particular subplot, there wouldn't be any loose ends left hanging.

[BlackLantern]

well GI Joe Resolute had Storm Shadow setting the master up to be shot by Zartan, the comics had a whole other backstory, and so did the animated series...so just like Cobra Commander, this thing has 3 or 4 different backstories

[wootbaby]

How they handled this is actually one of the more subtle things in the entire movie.

They leave it ambiguous. Obviously ppl who post here will mostly "get it" but I guarantee that 99/100 less sophisticated viewers will NOT realize how they're getting shown the scene through Snake Eye's POV... I saw this movie with my GF and 2 other ppl and none of them are nerds and NONE of them had a clue. All of them in the car thought 1)Stormshadow was 100% dead and 2)100% that he killed the master

Considering how popular Lee was in his role as SS, they WILL bring him back and it will be a fun twist for 99% of the public.

The way that last SS/SE battle ended had strong clues for sophisticated geeks. There was no "death blow" and there was a really long shot of Stormshadow going into the water... I think most fanboys watching would have immediately thought "freezing water" which naturally leaves open the possibility of him being preserved.

PERSONALLY I didn't actually like the choreography in the final battle... I would have liked better pacing with more back and forth. But overall IMO how they handled Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow was one of the more nuanced and well-constructed thing in the movie... which is good because them ****ing this one rivalry could have singlehandedly ruined the entire movie. There's a lot of cues about a long backstory between the 2 ninjas and a lot of clues even for the casual fan that SS isn't "evil" but a more complicated character (like him not killing women etc)

I'd rather they leave everything ambiguous and have a chance to build on it with a bigger budget and more creative control in future movies than to cram it into this one movie. Because it's so vague they could easily make a Snake Eyes or a Storm Shadow SPIN OFF which honestly would probably be cooler than another GI Joe movie with ****ing Wayanssssssss

[BlackLantern]

I was a huge opponent of Wayans being there, but he wasn't as bothersome as I thought he was going to be

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As a non-fan, I sort of figured there was more to the story of Snake Eyes and Stormshadow than what was given and I hope they expand on it in the sequel. I take it Snake Eyes was always the better of the 2 though?

[lespaul59]

I think what some people don't think about is that Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have been developed over the span of 27 years or so. And the film makers have to fit that story or at least parts of it into a two hour movie that have three or four other stories to be told also. So some things are gonna get altered or left out. Like do we really need to set up the Zartan sub plot in the first movie? I don't think so. I probaly would use Firefly in place of Zartan or just use Firefly and leave Zartan out. This would also be away to introduce another character with out having to tell a new story and take time away from fleshing the other stories out.

[TheVileOne]

I agree that there was some ambiguity to the fate of their Master, but beyond that it was lame.

Let's see, a kiddie Snake Eyes breaks into the Arashikage dojo and Snake Eyes is already an MMA practicioner despite being a homeless bum and is more than an equal match to an experienced and trained fighter than the young Storm Shadow (what was his name? It didn't sound like Tommy or the Japanese equivalent of Tommy). They have an MMA battle complete with a BJJ armbar. Snake Eyes makes black belt in what seems to be about two weeks and the Master is assassinated shortly after that.

What was lame about this sequence IMHO is that they wouldn't at all show any progression of time or growth beyond what just seemed to be like six months or less than a year with kid Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow. Very ineffective story execution.

Also Snake Eyes more than anything wanted to "save" Storm Shadow. Instead they put that garbage on the ridiculous Duke/Baroness relationship.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^I think they showed progression when SS kept beating SE and then SE beat SS finally, and the master was pleased but SS wasnt.

[TheVileOne]

By progression I mean seeing them actually grow beyond that singular age. The montage made it seem like all those events happened in about several weeks. I get that they are prodigies but you know seriously.

Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow knew each other and were rivals for YEARS. They both HATE, LOVE, and LOATHE each other.

[lespaul59]

I would say that they just used the same actors just so they wouldn't have to hire ore than one actor to play the younger versions of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow. And really in the comics SEs only trains with SS for three years. So in my opinion for what need to be done in the movie they did a good job by keeping it somewhat simple. Comapired to hiring two or three actors to show the same thing and taking more time and money to film the same amount of story.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by lespaul59

I would say that they just used the same actors just so they wouldn't have to hire ore than one actor to play the younger versions of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow. And really in the comics SEs only trains with SS for three years. So in my opinion for what need to be done in the movie they did a good job by keeping it somewhat simple. Comapired to hiring two or three actors to show the same thing and taking more time and money to film the same amount of story.

Exactly, hiring older actors would have cost more money and really this movie cost more than enough already. Personally, as a non-fan, I thought the rivalry between these two characters made the movie, non of the other relationships really interested me.

I take it their relationship runs deeper in the cartoons/comics? Was Snake Eyes always the better of the two?

[lespaul59]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Exactly, hiring older actors would have cost more money and really this movie cost more than enough already. Personally, as a non-fan, I thought the rivalry between these two characters made the movie, non of the other relationships really interested me.

I take it their relationship runs deeper in the cartoons/comics? Was Snake Eyes always the better of the two?

Yes in the comics Snake Eyes would lose to Storm Shadow so SS would lose faceinfront of his uncle. But his uncle knew SE was throwing the fight. And the Hard Master(SS's uncle) was gonna lets SE take over as the leader of the Arashikage clan but SE refused. And right after that Zartan shot the HM with one of SS's arrows, plus that shot that killed the HM was a shot that they thought only SS could make so SS was blamed. And that is what set the rivalry up. I think I covered the basics of the story from the comics. In the Sunbow cartoon(Which ran from 1985-1987) SE is pretty much a background character while SS fights both Spirit and Quick Kick. In the DiC cartoon(which ran from 1989-1991) SS was a Joe and Se is considered the worlds greatest ninja in one episode. I'm not sure about their relationship in Sigma 6 because I wasn't really a fan of the cartoon. In Resolute SE and SS are rivals because SS had the HM killed because he wouldn't show him the seventh step to the sun and I think the HM also favored SE in this also and tought SE the seventh step to the sun. The seventh step to the sun is basicly a move where SE was tought to kill some one with seven timed strikes. And the one of SE's file cards metions SE and SS as being equals or something like that, I don't remember the exact quote. I think I've covered the basics but I'm sure somebody else could probaly explain SE and SS relationship in the different carttons and comics better than I have. And if you want to check out SE's origin check out G.I. Joe: The Best of Snake Eyes trade paper back.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Okay thanks, they did leave it open in the movie about the HM's death, we never actually see SS stab him with the sword, in the movie it didnt look like SE kept letting SS win though, it looked more lik he just eventually got better than him after lots of practice.

I may pick up the TPB you suggested, it sounds like a good read, I did see it in the shop the other day but the stories in it looked really old, does this make a difference at all?

[lespaul59]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

^Okay thanks, they did leave it open in the movie about the HM's death, we never actually see SS stab him with the sword, in the movie it didnt look like SE kept letting SS win though, it looked more lik he just eventually got better than him after lots of practice.

I may pick up the TPB you suggested, it sounds like a good read, I did see it in the shop the other day but the stories in it looked really old, does this make a difference at all?

The stories in The Best of Snake Eyes is from the Marvel Comics series which which lasted 155 issues(1982-1994). No the age doesn't matter they're still good stories. I was always a fan of the Marvel series and still am. One thing about the tpbs is that the Best Of tpbs are collections from the MC series but they also have Classic G.I. Joe that collects the single issues. Like Classic G.I. Joe: Vol 1 has issues #1-10 in it where TBOSE has issue #10, 21, 26, 27, 31 and 144. So other than issue 144 I think the other five can be purchesed in the Classic G.I. Joe volumes.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by lespaul59

The stories in The Best of Snake Eyes is from the Marvel Comics series which which lasted 155 issues(1982-1994). No the age doesn't matter they're still good stories. I was always a fan of the Marvel series and still am. One thing about the tpbs is that the Best Of tpbs are collections from the MC series but they also have Classic G.I. Joe that collects the single issues. Like Classic G.I. Joe: Vol 1 has issues #1-10 in it where TBOSE has issue #10, 21, 26, 27, 31 and 144. So other than issue 144 I think the other five can be purchesed in the Classic G.I. Joe volumes.

Ah right, thanks, I may pick them up then, may pick up the Storm Shadow one as well. Has their rivalry always been a main focus point of the cartoons and comics?

[lespaul59]

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON

Ah right, thanks, I may pick them up then, may pick up the Storm Shadow one as well. Has their rivalry always been a main focus point of the cartoons and comics?

The Snake Eyes/Storm Shodow relationship was more in the comics rather than the Sunbow series. Like I said before SS fought Spirit and Quick Kick. And unless I've forgotten an episode SS and SE never really have any interaction in the Sunbow series. In the DiC cartoon series they're shown as friends which eventually happens in the comics also. Basicly SS tells SE that he joined Cobra to find the person who really killed the Hard Master.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Originally Posted by lespaul59

The Snake Eyes/Storm Shodow relationship was more in the comics rather than the Sunbow series. Like I said before SS fought Spirit and Quick Kick. And unless I've forgotten an episode SS and SE never really have any interaction in the Sunbow series. In the DiC cartoon series they're shown as friends which eventually happens in the comics also. Basicly SS tells SE that he joined Cobra to find the person who really killed the Hard Master.

Ah right, hope that last part comes to fruition in the movies, that would be a great twist.

[Golgo-13]

Just saw the film. The SE and SS flashbacks and fights were the highlights of the film.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^My thoughts exactly, they made the movie for me, and were the only memorable parts for me as well.

[The Guard]

I fail to see how Zartan not being involved "ruins" their arc. I loved the Snake Eyes/Storm Shadow stuff. I don't think this is all the filmmakers have in store for us. For one thing, even though this isn't SNAKE EYES: THE MOVIE, Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow got quite a bit of screentime, and Snake Eyes got the most compelling development/story arc. Heck, even in BATMAN BEGINS, the title character's training consisted of being beat up, being bit with sticks, taught about gunpowder and hiding, and then magically becoming a ninja. I'm sure there's more of their pasts to come, with each subsequent film looking a bit less further into their pasts and so forth.