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View Poll Results: Can / should there be some kind of origin in the reboot?
Yes 81 69.23%
No 36 30.77%
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:32 PM   #51
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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Have you seen X-Men Origins: Wolverine!

Was an utter mess.

Some origins are best left for flash-backs and odd memories not a full blown child friendly fest for more $$$$$
I agree. I was talking more the OGN of Origins, but either way Wolverine already had an origin before Marvel went crazy revealing it.

Someone had argued that Wolverine was fine without an origin, and I was really just pointing out that he actually did have one.

I agree the character was a bit more interesting when his "true origins" were unknown.

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Old 08-22-2009, 04:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I agree. I was talking more the OGN of Origins, but either way Wolverine already had an origin before Marvel went crazy revealing it.

Someone had argued that Wolverine was fine without an origin, and I was really just pointing out that he actually did have one.

I agree the character was a bit more interesting when his "true origins" were unknown.
The origin scene/flashback in X2 summed it up great, we got to see the brutal torture and him out of the tank all covered in blood.

This time we got no blood at all and him just running around like a child!

Sucks totally ruined my 2nd fave character.

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Old 08-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #53
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:51 PM   #54
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Some people are too stupid to know that an origin doesn't have to mean "Jor-el the Krypton Adventures" for 2 hrs.

An origin story can simply show how he became the hero. Yes, it would be better to have 20-30 of Krypton/SV at the beginning before he arrives in Metropolis. I will never be convinced otherwise, and unfortunately I shall look down on those who lack the imagination of a modernized story. If you think we really "got it" from Donner's attempt and that serves as a passable origin story today for the younger generation/newer generation of fans, you are wrong and need a psychiatric evalulation.

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Old 08-22-2009, 04:58 PM   #55
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I can agree with this to a point. However in setting up the "phenomenon of Superman" you would still be telling his origin, at least as it relates to Metropolis.
Yeah, that part's fine, if you want to get semantic about it. It;s still his 'origin', per se in that he's introduced as being a new presence, rather than a character who's already been around and known for a while.

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You'd still be telling how he made his first appearance, how the people of Metropolis feel about him, etc. You are not telling his "Kryptonian" origins, but you are telling an origin story. Again, Wolverine had an origin decades before "Origins" came out.
Right, like i said, introducing the phenomenon of Superman being Superman as something new and unprecedented...within that fictional universe. Almost as if the audience starts from the perspective of Metropolis, and not necessarily as a constant observer along with Supes/Clark right off the bat.

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I guess the point is you have to tell an origin of some kind. The question is, do you just tell the parts that are important to your story, or do you tell it all?
You tell all that you feel is important and fitting for your specific approach.......and hope that others will come along for the ride. And if you miss something, hopefully it won't take away from the value of what IS there.

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I'm fine with telling the parts that are important to the story, and revealing the rest as time goes on. We all have to remember though, that with all film projects, a sequel is NOT a sure thing.
Certainly, and part of my take on not doing the 'background' up front is to devote more time and space to the actual here and now, and make that part exciting again in and of itself. Perhaps a bit of a gamble, but one that...if it pays off...will attract even more interest in expanding/deepening the story and backstory, which you'll use later on. It's like meeting a new person, finding them interesting, then wanting to know more about where they came from....which you wouldn't care about as much if you didn't find them immediately interesting.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:01 PM   #56
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'm cool with an origin, but I don't want a long, drawn-out Krypton scene. I really don't care about the internal Kryptonian politics Jor-El has to fight against, unless it somehow ties into Zod or Brainiac.
See...once people are egrossed by Superman again, then Krypton may not seem so long and drawn out anymore. It could be more poignant and symbolic once we've seen and reinvested in what it's supposed to lead to.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:25 PM   #57
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

It is my opinion the origin is one of the best parts of the Superman mythos. It is the easiest way to get the audience to go along with this character from the beginning of his journey all the way through the troubles he'll face. That said, I'm humble enough to admit it's also possible to go on without it.

Has it been done many times? Yes. Because it's a classic, that's why!

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Old 08-22-2009, 05:32 PM   #58
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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It is my opinion the origin is one of the best parts of the Superman mythos. It is the easiest way to get the audience to go along with this character from the beginning of his journey all the way through the troubles he'll face. That said, I'm humble enough to admit it's also possible to go on without it.

Has it been done many times? Yes. Because it's a classic, that's why!
So why not use it in a way that hasn't been done before?

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 05:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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So why not use it in a way that hasn't been done before?
I for one don't oppose a different way, but regardless we need to see the journey of how he becomes the hero.

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Old 08-22-2009, 05:40 PM   #60
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I for one don't oppose a different way, but regardless we need to see the journey of how he becomes the hero.
Oh we will...one we reintroduce the hero part of it first and make that cool again.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:00 PM   #61
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

For me the issue isn't whether you see the origin, which in this case mean's Krypton and SV . For me the issue is when . I don't think it needs to be in the first film for the story to work . Like I said earlier it could be alluded to and developed more in the next film. You could even have the story unfold over three film's revealing another aspect of the story that is important to the each plot. I do think at the very least it should begin with Clark arriving in Metropolis as opposed to an established hero ala Batman 89.

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Old 08-22-2009, 06:08 PM   #62
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Batman was still pretty new on the scene in B'89....but yeah, we want to see Supes' first appearance as Supes.....freakin' everyone out.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:34 PM   #63
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Smile Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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It is my opinion the origin is one of the best parts of the Superman mythos. It is the easiest way to get the audience to go along with this character from the beginning of his journey all the way through the troubles he'll face. That said, I'm humble enough to admit it's also possible to go on without it.

Has it been done many times? Yes. Because it's a classic, that's why!
I agree with this, but I just think there's got to be something, at least one scene, that explains where he came from. It's hard for me to imagine a restart to the franchise without including this key element to the character, in some way.

I'm sick of "origin fever" in Hollywood movies. I don't want a full-fledged, "origin movie" to reintroduce the character, and I really don't need to know everything about how he finally became Superman. One or several brief dream sequences and/or flashback scenes would be enough for me.

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Old 08-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #64
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I'm really tempted to go back thru this thread and get a head count of for and against....

and, really, if the origin was there complete with Krypton, SV, and a little world travel before the costume for maybe 20 minutes of the film, would it upset everyone that much that they'd boycott the film? I doubt it. So the film is 2 hours and 15 minutes instead of an hour and a half... would that be such a problem?


And, yes, Showtime, this is a question to the general posters here. I'd like an answer from anyone.

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Old 08-22-2009, 06:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'm really tempted to go back thru this thread and get a head count of for and against....

and, really, if the origin was there complete with Krypton, SV, and a little world travel before the costume for maybe 20 minutes of the film, would it upset everyone that much that they'd boycott the film? I doubt it. So the film is 2 hours and 15 minutes instead of an hour and a half... would that be such a problem?


And, yes, Showtime, this is a question to the general posters here. I'd like an answer from anyone.
How about interspersing it amongst the second film's plot, and we wouldn't have to worry about exactly how many minutes they amount to? It'd all be just one film.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:57 PM   #66
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'm really tempted to go back thru this thread and get a head count of for and against....

and, really, if the origin was there complete with Krypton, SV, and a little world travel before the costume for maybe 20 minutes of the film, would it upset everyone that much that they'd boycott the film? I doubt it. So the film is 2 hours and 15 minutes instead of an hour and a half... would that be such a problem?


And, yes, Showtime, this is a question to the general posters here. I'd like an answer from anyone.
I think it would end up being 30-35 minutes at the start to include Krypton, SV, and world travel (ala L&C pilot idea). Then you develop another 10-15 minutes of him getting the job at the DP in Metropolis. We have a possibility of 45 minutes before seeing Superman.

I am all for this and I think general audience fans would go along with it fine. But there will be some that disagree here. It seems a popular idea is to even start the first scene with Superman fighting someone right away. I would like this in a sequel, but obviously I don't like it for a reboot/origin.

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Old 08-22-2009, 07:31 PM   #67
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I think it would end up being 30-35 minutes at the start to include Krypton, SV, and world travel (ala L&C pilot idea). Then you develop another 10-15 minutes of him getting the job at the DP in Metropolis. We have a possibility of 45 minutes before seeing Superman.
Too long before we see Superman. More than any other character these days, we need to see and experience the new Superman almost right up front and hook people in with that. Then they'll be even more interested in all that other stuff later on.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 08-22-2009 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:32 PM   #68
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I'm just tickled that SUPERMAN STARTS caught on, at least with Showtime.

I understand that people have their preferences, but there's far too much "It has to be this or that to work right" going on here. Pre-Crisis over Post-Crisis, and vice versa, who is the man/disguise stuff, mad scientist/corporate Luthor...I think a lot of that misses the point of the mythology.

A lot of things could work.

The whole "Superman is a mystery" thing, that's all well and good, but in the real world, that becomes somewhat irrelevant. Because yes, people know who Superman is. Maybe HE doesn't know "who" he is, but audiences do, and will, you know? There's no point in pretending he didn't come from Krypton, wasn't raised by the Kents, etc. Because that's what Superman is. Now, that doesn't absolutely have to be SHOWN. But that's still what Superman is.

I agree that we should see Superman's origins in some capacity. This includes where the idea to become "Superman" came from, his past, present and future ties to Smallville, Krypton, Metropolis, and the Earth. Heck, I'd even like to see where Clark Kent's personality and morality came from in terms of psychology. We do not, mind you, need to see it all at once, or in any kind of standard origin format. I.E, a new structure for the origin needs to be found. Something like BATMAN BEGINS could work, and so, I think, could something like V FOR VENDETTA.

A straight origin film could definitely work, and we could very much still see the real Superman in that context. A movie that starts out with Superman existing that touches on the origin could work as well.

People say Superman deserves a "complete" story. Fair enough. I look at stuff like BATMAN BEGINS, and I do not feel Batman's origin was done much justice at all. The ideas behind it were, but the actual details of it? Not so much.

Myself, I went and saw SUPERMAN RETURNS, despite only snippets of origin, and enjoyed it. I'd go see any Superman movie, just...because.

Here's the thing. The reason Superman does what he does is not a one time thing. It's something he should be reaffirming to himself constantly. Therefore, if you want to see what makes Superman tick, it doesn't neccessarily have to be in the sense of "How Superman began".

That said, I really do think most people who care on any level DO know the relevant Superman's origin. Obviously, everyone doesn't. But I also agree that you cannot assume they do, and you cannot ignore the compelling elements of the mythology.

More and more, I like the idea of Superman's origins being revealed bit by bit, film by film, but not in the sense that if you don't get past one film, the basics wouldn't still be there. I am also convinced that Jor-El's story needs to be seen. But bit by bit, over subsequent films, not a one shot deal and then nothing but echoes.

I want to write this, damn it. I've already written it, and I want to write it again. I think we should just have a random "ideas" thread. Not story ideas, just bits and pieces of ideas for people to pick and choose from and craft something amazing.

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Old 08-22-2009, 07:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'd really like to see a Begins style story. How about if we start with Krypton exploding, as I mentioned before, but this time instead of the ship dissolving to the bullet, ala Birthright, it dissolves to a bullet and then, very quickly to a barrage of machine gun rounds hitting Superman's chest, like in SR? We could cut to the action right away, and then use elements of the story to bring us back to Krypton, Smallville, Africa/world travel, etc.
Or...a bullet hitting him in the eye! Make it an homage to previous films...oh...wait.

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Old 08-22-2009, 09:12 PM   #70
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Do we really need to see Clark Kent find out what EVERYONE in the audience will already know? Thanks to Donner and Smallville, Superman is probably the only superhero who not only doesn't need a retelling of his origin, but would surely be a worse film if it wasted it's time with it.

The only point to it is to show us something new. So new and integral to the story that it can't all fit in a flashback and must be reshot and fleshed out again.

Hulk got it right. All you need is no more than 10 minutes of quick flashbacks and/or voice overs to set up what you already know and go from there.

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Old 08-22-2009, 09:45 PM   #71
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'm cool with an origin, but I don't want a long, drawn-out Krypton scene. I really don't care about the internal Kryptonian politics Jor-El has to fight against, unless it somehow ties into Zod or Brainiac.
I definitely think they should tie Krypton's destruction to a villain. It would definitely be a way to make the origin feel fresh, and at the same time could be used to set up an ultimate villain for a trilogy. I was thinking along the lines of Brainiac initially. I'm sort of rethinking that now, although he would still be part of it.

I was thinking today of an opening sequence on Krypton with massive fire-pits erupting all across the planet while swarms of menacing alien spacecrafts surround the planet. Months ago Krypton had suffered a phenomenon that rendered virtually all it's technology and defenses useless (courtesy of Brainiac). The planet is slowly becoming engulfed in flame.

Jor-El a brilliant scientist is feverishly finishing adjustments on a small one man craft. He has found a way to make the ship functional, and is able to harness just enough power to launch the ship. He places Kal-El in the ship and he is on his way to Earth.

The planet becomes completely engulfed in flame. Cut to the interior of the looming spacecrafts' mother-ship. A massive figure is seated on a throne in the shadows of a dimly lit chamber psychically feeding on the anguish and suffering bellow as billions perish in flame. Through the shadows a pair of burning red eyes become visible.

Finally Krypton explodes. Then the film could advance 25-30 years and take us straight to metropolis. They could use flashbacks of smallville in spots during the film, and at the end of the film perhaps introduce the fortress and Jor-El's warning of the ultimate evil in the universe - Darkseid. The second film would contain a more detailed understanding of Clark's Kryptonian heritage and his ultimate destiny, as he faces Brainiac who's appearance on Earth signals the impending arrival of Darkseid in a 3rd film.

Darkseid seems to be a popular choice as a candidate for the 3rd film's villain as he is in many people's opinion the most epic foe for Superman to face. So why not introduce his character briefly at the beginning and tie him not only to Kal-El's origin but his ultimate destiny(at least over the course of this trilogy) That way when the third film roles around and the eventual climactic battle between the two finally occurs, it will be an event that has been building over the course the trilogy, and would have so much more impact.

I'm sure there's probably a ton of holes in this, I should probably give these ideas more thought before I post them...oh well.


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Old 08-22-2009, 10:48 PM   #72
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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Or...a bullet hitting him in the eye! Make it an homage to previous films...oh...wait.
Hey there! No one said anything about an homage to SR! I was merely providing a visual for reference!

Seriously though, I just thought something like that could be cool. Just a random idea.

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Old 08-22-2009, 11:30 PM   #73
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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So why not use it in a way that hasn't been done before?
Never said it couldn't. In fact, if they go with the origin it should very much be quite different from any of the other versions of it.

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Old 08-22-2009, 11:34 PM   #74
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

woot go origin reboot... I'd like to see a young Clark moving to Metropolis, and easily makes the shift to superhero... only to face someone who can give as good as he can get... for the first time Clark will feel pain, helplessness and defeat and question whether he can really be a hero... bum-bum-baaa... General Zod


1-Zod could be the perfect way to reintroduce the next generation to Krypton, the fortress of solitude
2-Drive the story along as he peaks Clark's interest and introduce his origins as he knew his family and homeworld
3-I WANNA SEE SOMEBODY GO BLOW FOR BLOW WITH SUPES WITH ALL THE KICK*SS SPECIAL EFFECTS OUT TODAY
4-Lex has been done to death, Zod has once, but I doubt non-comic fans know who he is (I know a lil bit as I watch Smallville and did a lil research)
5-OMG I wanna see somebody take on Supes W/O Kryptonite for once... so anti-climactic, maybe save it for a much later film


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Old 08-23-2009, 12:14 AM   #75
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I for one am incredibly confused at how one does a reboot with touching his origin at all. I dont see how Krypton can be avouded to be honest.

People need to stop saying its about Superman becoming who he is or whatever...the next Superman FILM be wall to wall action. The standard origin film for Superheros seems to be be 2 films in 1:

Film 1: 1st half-establishes characters motives and goals; problems to overcome, basically their origin. I.e. in Batman Begins, up through his 1st night as Batman. In Spiderman, up through montage of heroim. In STM, up through Helicopter rescue.

Film 2: 2nd half; characters has overcome smaller problems as the real threat rises; character overcomes said threat and has become hero he is supposed to be. Basically first adventure as hero. In Batman Begins, when we really begin to see whats up in Arkham. In Spiderman...when Osborn begins to want to **** up Spidey...in STM, when Luthor ****s with the missles.

OR...you can do what Burtons Batman did, and basically ignore the 1st half and get right into the second (Superman Returns essentially was just the 1st half). Thats essentially what we were looking at in the late 90s with the "Superman Lives" crap; just a random Superman adventure.

My personal belief is thats not the way to go. Whatever it is needs to be something new; not Goldeneye but more Casino Royale. "See how the man...became Super" or something kind of fits the type of story I think Superman needs.

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