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View Poll Results: Can / should there be some kind of origin in the reboot?
Yes 81 69.23%
No 36 30.77%
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Old 08-23-2009, 12:31 AM   #76
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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Originally Posted by BATZARRO WWD View Post
Never said it couldn't. In fact, if they go with the origin it should very much be quite different from any of the other versions of it.
Including when it's used....as in not in the beginning (as it was in other versions).

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Old 08-23-2009, 02:54 AM   #77
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I think it would end up being 30-35 minutes at the start to include Krypton, SV, and world travel (ala L&C pilot idea). Then you develop another 10-15 minutes of him getting the job at the DP in Metropolis. We have a possibility of 45 minutes before seeing Superman.

I am all for this and I think general audience fans would go along with it fine. But there will be some that disagree here. It seems a popular idea is to even start the first scene with Superman fighting someone right away. I would like this in a sequel, but obviously I don't like it for a reboot/origin.
Maybe but not necessarily. A three minute scene is much longer than you may think. The scenes on Krypton could probably be covered in about 5 minutes, Smallville in about 3, world travel might be a bit longer - somewhere around 7 to 10, and you could do the pre-costume Metropolis bits in about 5 to 10. From my count that looks like about 20 minutes. And here's the thing: While I firmly believe that the Krypton and some Smallville stuff would have to happen at the beginning of the movie, the additional stuff like world travel and some important Smallville interludes could be laced into later parts of the film as Clark's memories.

Myself, I think I'd prefer his origin to be linear but I could live with it if it were the way I just proposed.

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Old 08-23-2009, 09:09 AM   #78
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I could understand why there'd be so much ill-feelings towards the idea of showing Superman's origins again if his origin story sucked, but as any Superman fan knows that's not the case. So why is it that so many people want to see a "reboot" of the franchise where we don't even see where the main character came from? Would you rather they had to explain Superman's origins by giving 15 minutes out of a 2 hour movie to show his ship crashing, being found by the kents, and him showing a Superman costume sketch to Martha Kent, or for it all to be explained in a boring expositional conversation with no visuals? If this is going to be Superman's "re-introduction" to a new generation, doesn't it make sense to start at the beginning, instead of jumping into the middle and expecting everyone in the audience to already be well studied on Superman lore (which is exactly what Superman Returns did to mediocre effect)?
timstuff, district 9 = 11/10. if according to your marking standard. :P

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Old 08-23-2009, 10:21 AM   #79
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I'm just tickled that SUPERMAN STARTS caught on, at least with Showtime.

I understand that people have their preferences, but there's far too much "It has to be this or that to work right" going on here. Pre-Crisis over Post-Crisis, and vice versa, who is the man/disguise stuff, mad scientist/corporate Luthor...I think a lot of that misses the point of the mythology.

A lot of things could work.

The whole "Superman is a mystery" thing, that's all well and good, but in the real world, that becomes somewhat irrelevant. Because yes, people know who Superman is. Maybe HE doesn't know "who" he is, but audiences do, and will, you know? There's no point in pretending he didn't come from Krypton, wasn't raised by the Kents, etc. Because that's what Superman is. Now, that doesn't absolutely have to be SHOWN. But that's still what Superman is.

I agree that we should see Superman's origins in some capacity. This includes where the idea to become "Superman" came from, his past, present and future ties to Smallville, Krypton, Metropolis, and the Earth. Heck, I'd even like to see where Clark Kent's personality and morality came from in terms of psychology. We do not, mind you, need to see it all at once, or in any kind of standard origin format. I.E, a new structure for the origin needs to be found. Something like BATMAN BEGINS could work, and so, I think, could something like V FOR VENDETTA.

A straight origin film could definitely work, and we could very much still see the real Superman in that context. A movie that starts out with Superman existing that touches on the origin could work as well.

People say Superman deserves a "complete" story. Fair enough. I look at stuff like BATMAN BEGINS, and I do not feel Batman's origin was done much justice at all. The ideas behind it were, but the actual details of it? Not so much.

Myself, I went and saw SUPERMAN RETURNS, despite only snippets of origin, and enjoyed it. I'd go see any Superman movie, just...because.

Here's the thing. The reason Superman does what he does is not a one time thing. It's something he should be reaffirming to himself constantly. Therefore, if you want to see what makes Superman tick, it doesn't neccessarily have to be in the sense of "How Superman began".

That said, I really do think most people who care on any level DO know the relevant Superman's origin. Obviously, everyone doesn't. But I also agree that you cannot assume they do, and you cannot ignore the compelling elements of the mythology.

More and more, I like the idea of Superman's origins being revealed bit by bit, film by film, but not in the sense that if you don't get past one film, the basics wouldn't still be there. I am also convinced that Jor-El's story needs to be seen. But bit by bit, over subsequent films, not a one shot deal and then nothing but echoes.

I want to write this, damn it. I've already written it, and I want to write it again. I think we should just have a random "ideas" thread. Not story ideas, just bits and pieces of ideas for people to pick and choose from and craft something amazing.
I'd have it start off showing the Kents adopting infant Clark like any normal couple would do that can't have children of their own. They go to the smallville adoption agency first, then to other agencies in surrounding towns.
After failing to find what they are seeking in kansas, they travel to the next state. There they find a baby that they fall in love with, an infant with jet black hair and deep blue eyes. They ask about the birth parents but the director of the center doesn't know who they are.
The infant was found abandoned and brought here he says.
The Kents take him home unaware of what he will become.

Smallville. 6 years later.

Little Clark is playing as any typical 6 year old that lives in farming country would do, in the fields of corn. He is lost in his own little world and doesn't see the tractor Jonathan is driving heading for him.
Jonathan leans from side to side, watching his rows. He doesn't see Clark sitting in his path just ahead.
Jonathan glances up and his eyes grow wide as he sees Clark. He screams a parents terrified scream as he yells for Clark to move.
Jonathan yanks down hard on the steering wheel and tries to stop, but he's to close. The tractor is already on top of little clark.

Clark throws up his arms to instinctively protect himself. The tractor smashes into him.
Jonathan is thrown off his seat when the tractor hits. He gets to his feet, jumps from the machine, and races to Clark, his heart pounding in dread for his son.

His eyes filled with tears, Jonathon is expecting the worst, but what he finds stuns him.
Clark is uninjured. Jonathon looks at his tractor, the front end is smashed. Water and steam pour from it.
Jonathan grabs up clark and embraces him, overjoyed that he is not injured.

He looks at Clark, then at the tractor. He smiles as sets Clark down.
(thoughts race through his mind..he knew Clark was gifted. He has the maturity of someone 3 times his age, and his intelligence, that is very high, but this, this is something brand new.)

Clark looks up ''I'm sorry'' he says
''Don't be'' Jonathan says. ''Its not your fault''. ''I can get another tractor, but I cant get another you''. Jonathon rubs clarks hair playfully.

Then Jonathan asks the obvious.''Clark, did you know you could do this?"
Clark hesitates ''well....some funn things have been happening''

Jonathon, ''go non, i'm listening''.
Clark. I hear things......like way off things that i shouldnt be able to hear'', ''and I can jump really high and run fast''.

Jonathon nods and asks ''For how long?''

''For About 3 months now'' Clark says.

Clark looks down and kicks the dirt. ''I was afraid to tell you and ma''
Jonathan smiles. ''Never be afraid to tell me anything Clark, ok?''.

Jonathan takes Clark by the hand and says ''C'mon son, we need to talk to your ma about this''.
''Am I in trouble?'' Clark asks.
''No son, your not in trouble, but you can't tell anyone.'' ''Not friends, teachers, anyone''
''They won't understand''. Do you Understand Clark?'' ''It's very important'' ''Promise me son''.
''Ok, I promise pa''.
''Good'', jonathan says. ''Always keep your promise son''. ''remember that Clark, never lie''.
''Ok pa'' "I'll never forget''.

Next scene would show jonathan and clark walking into the farm house.
the camera stays outside.
We hear muffled voices from within.
Then we hear martha's voice and its loud and frantic.

Next scene would show Jonathan driving alone back to the adoptive center in the next state where they got Clark. He's tried to call, but with no luck.

Jonathan wants some answers. He is concerned that whatever it is that Clark can do, may be life threatening to little him.
They are afraid to trust any doctors in smallville, so he thought he would talk to the people at the adoptive center to see if they know anything about clark that perhaps they were afraid to tell them before.

He arrives and discovers that its closed and whats more is, it looks like its been empty for years.
He inquires at nearby businesses to see if they know why and when it closed and if they know how to get in contact with the former director. He learns that it was only open for 3 months, then it closed unexpectedly. They have no idea how to contact the people that ran it.
Jonathan learns that it was closed the day after they adopted Clark.
He heads back to Smallville with more questions than answers.

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Old 08-23-2009, 11:00 AM   #80
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I think if we do get a new Superman film it would be best AFTER Smallville is over ... let the dust settle so people can forget it, not that its really bad but to start over we need a clean slate.

Let the RIGHT people get involved, good script, a new fresh face to play Clark ... move away from wanting him to look like Reeves, a new image of Superman for a new generation. Tall, big build like the Alex Ross paintings.

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Old 08-23-2009, 11:43 AM   #81
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I said it before if we are to get a new start for films series ie a total reboot to the film series like BB did for batman. The origin is something we need to see. The only question is how to show it and how to make it different then past takes. Do you go straight origin of krypton-smallville-metropolis, do you do flashbacks here and there and film starts up like on his first day at the daily planet, do u do TIH show important origin snipits in opening credits with flash backs throughout the film. That is the question.

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Old 08-23-2009, 12:41 PM   #82
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I said it before if we are to get a new start for films series ie a total reboot to the film series like BB did for batman. The origin is something we need to see. The only question is how to show it and how to make it different then past takes. Do you go straight origin of krypton-smallville-metropolis, do you do flashbacks here and there and film starts up like on his first day at the daily planet, do u do TIH show important origin snipits in opening credits with flash backs throughout the film. That is the question.


You can make it different by .. well, making it different.

A brand new Krypton that looks and feels like the best science fiction locale with a gripping story of it's own.

Smallville vignettes (one or two) that show some of what shaped him ... good and bad.

Clark traveling the world in search of his destiny.


All that would be new... new to old fans and those just experiencing the character for the first time. It would be exciting to all.

Just imagine .. A Krypton we've never seen before that feels like more than just a backdrop to get past. The same with Smallville. If we make these places more than a footnote in passing, the whole movie will benefit.

The origin serves a greater purpose than some quick overview of how this alien child got here and became Superman. It's can be a dramatic and deeply moving story of how Clark was shaped into being Superman.

How you break it up, though (which is what I think you were really talking about) is you give Krypton and his arrival in Smallville the first 20 minutes of the film. The rest you can scatter thru the film if you so choose.

Myself, I would have it all run linearly. I've always loved how Byrne handled his space plane rescue in civilian clothes, being mobbed by an amazed crowd, and going back to Smallville to work it all out - thereby arriving at the Superman identity.


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Old 08-23-2009, 12:46 PM   #83
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I totally feel you there man. Hopefully the next people can find the good balance between krypton/smallville/metropolis elements of the character.

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Old 08-23-2009, 12:53 PM   #84
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Make it an origin film, but don't start things at the very beginning.

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Old 08-23-2009, 12:55 PM   #85
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Yea their is a variety of ways we can do origin and either doing it linear or non linear like.

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Old 08-23-2009, 12:58 PM   #86
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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Yea their is a variety of ways we can do origin and either doing it linear or non linear like.
Yes but I vote for a combo.

I think Krypton has to come first followed by his arrival on Earth and adoption by the Kents. Anything else can be done in flashback as Clark's memories.

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Old 08-23-2009, 01:03 PM   #87
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Hopefully the next guys can figure out what would work best this time around. Peferably i kinda would like to go linear route just to get things out of the way. But i am totally open to flashbacks, TIH opening credits way, and others.

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Old 08-23-2009, 01:41 PM   #88
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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Some people are too stupid to know that an origin doesn't have to mean "Jor-el the Krypton Adventures" for 2 hrs.

An origin story can simply show how he became the hero. Yes, it would be better to have 20-30 of Krypton/SV at the beginning before he arrives in Metropolis. I will never be convinced otherwise, and unfortunately I shall look down on those who lack the imagination of a modernized story. If you think we really "got it" from Donner's attempt and that serves as a passable origin story today for the younger generation/newer generation of fans, you are wrong and need a psychiatric evalulation.

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It is my opinion the origin is one of the best parts of the Superman mythos. It is the easiest way to get the audience to go along with this character from the beginning of his journey all the way through the troubles he'll face. That said, I'm humble enough to admit it's also possible to go on without it.

Has it been done many times? Yes. Because it's a classic, that's why!

These are easily the best posts of the thread. JCDC some people are really to stupid to understand that we don't need to spend 30 minutes dealing with jor-el and krypton. The movie is about superman/clark kent, we need to care about this specific character. Batman Begins didnt concentrate on Thomas wayne for 5 hours, they established him in 2 scenes.

Second, Batzarro makes another excellent point. The origin is one of the best parts of the mythos. Throwing superman on screen to punch something is not going to make people care for him. The audience has to care for clark kent, like they did for bruce. Making the audience care by showing the origin (could even be his year one in metropolis like some have said) is the tried tested and true method. Superman doesn't need to re-invent comic book movies, he just needs a good one.

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Old 08-23-2009, 01:49 PM   #89
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

i totally agree this time around we need to develop the clark kent character and see why he would become a costumed crime fighter and his motives behind doing it and going public, since he spent most of his life stay hidden.

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Old 08-23-2009, 02:47 PM   #90
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I've said it before, an new origin movie NEEDS to happen in the wake of Superman Returns. It's just that some folks can't let go of there precious little Donner movie.
As much as this will piss some people off, I do think that this is what this "I don't want an orgin" thing is all about with most posters.

They think that a new orgin will somehow overshadow Donners first Superman movie.

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Old 08-23-2009, 03:07 PM   #91
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

If an origin is to be done, and I would support one if so, something similar to the first issue of All-Star Superman could work. I'm not saying a direct adaptation of course, but if the director did something to that effect visually, it could work out.

Similar to what Superman Returns did with its, for lack of a better term, "Opening Crawl", but much more enticing.

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Old 08-23-2009, 03:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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As much as this will piss some people off, I do think that this is what this "I don't want an orgin" thing is all about with most posters.

They think that a new orgin will somehow overshadow Donners first Superman movie.
I think it's more than some fans have seen the Donner films numerous times, have seen various versions of the origin on TV, and have read a few origin stories in the Superman comics. They're understandably tired of seeing the same story over and over, but this movie is being made less for the fanboys and more for the general public. It won't be an overdone story to them.

Anyway, like I said, I consider the Krypton part of the origin to be a bit tedious, so I'd rather save that for a sequel and it'll have to tie in with the villain.

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Old 08-23-2009, 04:56 PM   #93
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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As much as this will piss some people off, I do think that this is what this ''I don't want an origin'' thing is all about with most posters.

They think that a new origin will somehow overshadow Donners first Superman movie.
There may be an element of truth to that, Donner's origin movie seems to be put on such a ridiculously high pedestal. I've always sensed a reluctance within the fan base to try anything different that overshadows the original movie.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #94
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

Honestly...as much as I loved STM, I'd like everything about a new Superman move to overshadow the Donner version....because that's what you expect from a newer movie, if they're going to do one. I'd also like it to do things differently, as a film...as in not relying on a linear a timeline in the beginning, i.e. starting on Krypton....and use Krypton and his growing up as more than just background/lead-up. They need to think more outside of the box and have the new Superman movies stand out as films, and do things differently than what we've come to expect in Superhero movies these days. Maybe start the film more from the perspective of an outsider, seeing Superman for the first time without any warning or precedent. Then as we move along, we start to get more of an inside view...and as we get to know the character even more, THEN we start looking into the background and family history, etc.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:24 PM   #95
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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As much as this will piss some people off, I do think that this is what this "I don't want an orgin" thing is all about with most posters.

They think that a new orgin will somehow overshadow Donners first Superman movie.

We are in agreement.

The thing is, it wouldn't actually be that hard to top Donner's film. At all, somebody just has to try.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:28 PM   #96
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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I think it's more than some fans have seen the Donner films numerous times, have seen various versions of the origin on TV, and have read a few origin stories in the Superman comics. They're understandably tired of seeing the same story over and over, but this movie is being made less for the fanboys and more for the general public. It won't be an overdone story to them.

Anyway, like I said, I consider the Krypton part of the origin to be a bit tedious, so I'd rather save that for a sequel and it'll have to tie in with the villain.
The Krypton part wouldn't be tedious as long as you moved away from crystal ball Krypton, and as you said, tie it in with the main villian. But, where you would like to save that for a sequel, I think that has to be in the origin movie. It wouldn't be wise for the origin film have Superman taking on Lex yet again, that to me would be the most tedious thing you could do. Superman needs to save the world from an apocalyptic threat in the origin film, with that being either Braniac or The Eradicator. One of those two villians having the Kyrptonian tie in at the beginning and then coming to destroy Earth in the wake of Superman's debut makes it a brand spanking new origin story without much effort.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:43 PM   #97
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

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We are in agreement.

The thing is, it wouldn't actually be that hard to top Donner's film. At all, somebody just has to try.
It wouldn't be hard to top it to some people.

If you're a mega fan of the first movie I just don't understand how it hurts your love of the movie if another orgin story is made?

It's not like Superman is an orginal movie idea. The character has been around for 70 years.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:45 PM   #98
MikeE
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

I'm not against a full origin story because of Donner, but rather because of ALL of the superhero origin stories we will have seen by the time this film comes out. In the last decade, we've seen origins for X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman, Fantastic Four, Batman, Watchmen, Iron Man, Hulk and before the next Superman film, we will see the origins of Green Lantern, Thor, and Captain America. Now, if we had never seen Superman's origins on film or TV, I would be the first one clamoring for an origin story.

Here's the problem: to give the origin story justice, it would take up at least 45 minutes of film time (including Krypton and Smallville). The only thing that would warrant investing that much screen time in the origin is if they do something new or different with it. Unfortunately, fans would revolt (and have revolted) when significant liberties are taken with proposed revisions to the origin story.

In my opinion, the only thing they can do is start in Metropolis (or right at the end of Clark's world travels) and we meet all of the characters the first time. To avoid the origin story, Clark won't know anything about his origins. We learn about Smallville when Clark goes home to visit his parents when he decides to start wearing a costume. Maybe we find out more about Clark's origins when he encounters a future foe in movie 2 (e.g., Brainiac) - maybe the origin rights will have been worked out by that time.

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Old 08-23-2009, 06:56 PM   #99
dru-zod2501
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

It's possible to have an origin and not have it step over anything really that came before

The opening sequence from Superman Returns was ok, they showed Krypton's destruction, but then instead of wasting time with images of space while the credits roll, fill that with images of the arrival on earth, a young Clark, and the suit.

Marvel's already gotten good at this, as evidenced by Spider-Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk, and to a lesser degree Hulk 1; they know how to condense backstory and present it in a way that still makes sense

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Old 08-23-2009, 07:29 PM   #100
bgshw44
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Default Re: Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

i just dont want a linear origin. i love the structure of the jj abrahms script, would do something like that

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