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Old 09-01-2009, 11:22 AM   #1
SuBe
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Default DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Let's Discuss.

Is Freedom of the Individual more important or less important than Security? Whether that Security is from Threats, physical or financial.

Is the Freedom to fail more important or less important than equality of oppurtunity?

Go.

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"Everyday that Congress meets, you lose a little bit more of your Liberty"
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:23 AM   #2
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

It doesn’t have to be an either/or question. That’s a false argument.


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Old 09-01-2009, 11:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Really? I believe high taxation to be ANTI-Freedom. I believe that reduction of choice in Healthcare to be in violation of the Free Market. I believe that when the Government tells you to do something against your will for your own good, that that is a violation of Liberty.

I believe that denile of Oppurtunity of one for the welfare of another to be a violation of freedom. These are not false arguments. These are being debated by the American People Right Now.

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"Everyday that Congress meets, you lose a little bit more of your Liberty"
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Really? I believe high taxation to be ANTI-Freedom. I believe that reduction of choice in Healthcare to be in violation of the Free Market. I believe that when the Government tells you to do something against your will for your own good, that that is a violation of Liberty.

I believe that denile of Oppurtunity of one for the welfare of another to be a violation of freedom. These are not false arguments. These are being debated by the American People Right Now.
What is your definition of high Taxation because that term differs from person to person?

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Old 09-01-2009, 12:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

I believe freedom is more important.

Inheritantly, I think that more freedom = less security. Atleast, depending on your point of view.

I think most Americans, probably think more security over freedom is more important.

If it's the patriot act, or something as simple as censorship.

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Old 09-01-2009, 01:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Security and Freedom are both personal perceptions. Your never really safe or free.

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Old 09-01-2009, 01:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

You just hit us with some philosophical knowledge, man.

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Old 09-01-2009, 01:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.


So which man's freedom or security are we talking about?




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Old 09-01-2009, 02:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklin Richards View Post
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
To quote George Carlin... "Crime fighters fight crime, fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight"?


Freedom is what you perceive it as, Some say this country is where you go to gain personal freedom and gain security and safety for you and you loved ones. Other's say this country is a fascist state turning into a socialist state (or whatever the e-mail this week says it is) that steals your hard earned cash in "Tax revenue".

Personally, as long as I don't have to strap on a side arm and grab a 12 gauge when I go to work or the grocery store, and have my home boarded up to keep out the people coming to take the few scraps of what I have, I'm doing pretty damn good.


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Old 09-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Freedom without security is anarchy, and security without freedom is tyranny.

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Old 09-01-2009, 04:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timstuff View Post
Freedom without security is anarchy, and security without freedom is tyranny.

Exactly!

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Old 09-01-2009, 06:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Let's Discuss.

Is Freedom of the Individual more important or less important than Security? Whether that Security is from Threats, physical or financial.

Is the Freedom to fail more important or less important than equality of oppurtunity?

Go.
1. I would say that the right balance is the minimum amount of security needed to protect the maximum amount of freedom.

2. I would say that the equality of opportunity allows for the freedom to fail. But, insisting on equality of outcome is when freedom itself starts to die, because in order to ensure equality of outcome, you have to make some people fail where they would normally have succeeded.

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Old 09-01-2009, 08:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
I believe that denile of Oppurtunity of one for the welfare of another to be a violation of freedom. These are not false arguments. These are being debated by the American People Right Now.
Hate to break it to you but laws are a balance between people's competing interests. Certain companies may be disadvantaged by laws for environmental protection because people in an area's interest is to make sure their air receives a certain amount of carbon dioxide or any other number of things. This is just the way our legal system works and has worked for a very long time.

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Old 09-01-2009, 09:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Really? I believe high taxation to be ANTI-Freedom. I believe that reduction of choice in Healthcare to be in violation of the Free Market. I believe that when the Government tells you to do something against your will for your own good, that that is a violation of Liberty.

I believe that denile of Oppurtunity of one for the welfare of another to be a violation of freedom. These are not false arguments. These are being debated by the American People Right Now.
Well what if some people think the government spending their tax money on the Iraq war is a violation of their freedom and thus they don't want their money to go that? Are you willing to support their definition of freedom?

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Old 09-01-2009, 10:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

We need laws, and we need freedoms. The have to work together.

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Old 09-01-2009, 11:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Well as usual it comes down to the monetary system. We live under a system where the need for profit comes before the needs of the people. The ramifications of a profit based society being the guiding mentality of the world are immense. Because what increases profit? What keeps prices high, what keeps things of value? Scarcity.

And when scarcity, through natural means or manipulated means, is a beneficial condition for industry and making profit, there can never be a world without poverty or war. It's impossible to expect everyone to act decently and ethically when poverty and in turn crime will always exist to shape human behavior because it's byproduct of the need for profit. And with the competition based economy in a profit structured world, corruption is built in, it's the foundation of the entire system. There will always be abuse of power, there will always be the exploitation of the "little people" for the gain of the "elite".

So we need laws that limit our freedoms, freedoms that we really have on loan for now, because of the massive failures and incredible short comings of the very thing we call the "American Dream". It's one big cruel joke.


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Old 09-02-2009, 12:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

I don't see why we can't have both.

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Old 09-02-2009, 01:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

What about agreeing or silently consenting to the Patriot Act that allows the executive branch of the Federal government to ignore your Constitutional rights or disregard the right to privacy in the name of security? What about breaking international law and sacrificing the founding ideals of this country to invade Iraq, because they "pose a clear and grave threat to Americans."

Saving the economic structure of this country isn't an argument of security vs. freedom, at least until we nationalize the banks and all the doomsday scenarios Fox likes to talk about. Then you've got a point.

A favorite quote:

Quote:
Those who give up a little freedom for a little security will lose both and deserve neither.
Thanks Ben Franklin.

I just like those who supported the illegal wiretapping and torture only cry out for individual freedom when they don't want a public healthcare option or they do want to see the banking system collapse. Really.

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Last edited by DACrowe; 09-02-2009 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 01:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Let's Discuss.

Is Freedom of the Individual more important or less important than Security? Whether that Security is from Threats, physical or financial.

Is the Freedom to fail more important or less important than equality of oppurtunity?

Go.
Let's get rid of the Patriot Act.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnno1 View Post
Let's get rid of the Patriot Act.
good luck with that....it's the ultimate catch all for the government and it would take a monumental movement in both the Senate and the House to make it go away

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:37 AM   #21
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuBe View Post
Really? I believe high taxation to be ANTI-Freedom. I believe that reduction of choice in Healthcare to be in violation of the Free Market. I believe that when the Government tells you to do something against your will for your own good, that that is a violation of Liberty.

I believe that denile of Oppurtunity of one for the welfare of another to be a violation of freedom. These are not false arguments. These are being debated by the American People Right Now.
high taxation... you mean, on the middle class, when Bush was president...


I really hope your not reffering to the notion that most republicans think, that the rich are unfairly taxed... a flat tax would be unfair to those living in poverty and the middle class would be disolved within a generation... the percentage tax that we have right now, based on your income is fine... for years now, the wealthy US citizens have taken advantage of republican policy loopholes... we employer last year, would brag to us, that he paid less income tax then us... not percentage amount... dollar amount...

I made 72 grand last year, and paid more then him... his yearly worth is that of 29 million...

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippie_hunter View Post
I don't see why we can't have both.

good for you... many people, after the Bush terms, beleive that can't be achieved....

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

the only high security I beleive in, is high security for our freedom....

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:40 AM   #24
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timstuff View Post
Freedom without security is anarchy, and security without freedom is tyranny.
This is a great quote. Personally I prefer freedom over security, but I realize they probably both need to be in place.

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Old 09-10-2009, 01:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: DEBATE: Freedom vs. Security

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good for you... many people, after the Bush terms, beleive that can't be achieved....
That mindset a load of bull. We can increase the amount of security we have to prevent another 9/11 without infringing upon our civil liberties.

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