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Old 09-09-2009, 06:15 PM   #51
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

Bane-- Really love your Keaton Avy. He looks particularly badass there.

In BB, the dialogue between gordon and bats when he drops off rachel and the bats show up, his voice is great in a forceful, whispery way.

IMHO, I totally get where people are coming from with their distaste for his voice in TDK, but whenever I sit down and watch the film from start to finish, it clicks for me.

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Old 09-09-2009, 06:34 PM   #52
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

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I thought Christian was excellent as Bruce Wayne, but I didnt understand his choices there. I thought it was over the top and distracted from his scenes as Batman. Im not sure what they were going for there. But, what do I know?

Yeah, I have to agree with that. I think Conroy has the best Bat-voice, Keaton played the best Batman, and Bale plays the best Bruce Wayne.

I am having a hard time deciding who played the better batman, I do like the way you broke it down.. I think bale has the best performance but keaton is right there, they both just have a little different approach. I really think both worked but I feel like bale just looks the part a little more and that has probably affected my opinion.

I really didn't have too much of an issue with bales voice as batman except for one scene where it was really overdone. But I could see maybe its part of disquising his voice as well.

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Old 09-09-2009, 07:20 PM   #53
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I am having a hard time deciding who played the better batman, I do like the way you broke it down.. I think bale has the best performance but keaton is right there, they both just have a little different approach. I really think both worked but I feel like bale just looks the part a little more and that has probably affected my opinion.

I really didn't have too much of an issue with bales voice as batman except for one scene where it was really overdone. But I could see maybe its part of disquising his voice as well.
As someone said here its different strokes for different folks in regards to the best Batman Keaton or Bale. personally (surprise suprise!) i am firmly in the Keaton camp he just never slips up once in the suit either in voice or mannerisms at many times bales voice uldulates wrongly or he looks awkward in the suit (say the last scene with joker upside down for eg) i never got this feeling once with Keatons time in it. and while Bale wears the suit plainly as a tool to fight crime thier is a far more symbiotic relationship with keaton when he dons it where the true persona is far more ambiguious then with Bale i am in the camp that always thinks the line between batman and wayne is very fine and loved the way keaton walked it. In summary i would say Keaton wears the suit instead of it wearing him while bale walks and talks many times like a guy in an uncompftable and awkward suit.

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Old 09-09-2009, 07:29 PM   #54
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The Conroy hate is nothing new. I remember people coming out of the woodwork to bash him when he was announced for Gotham Knight. I guess there really isn't a Batman actor without his share of haters. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. As for this supposed "confident superhero" tone that he apparently has in his voice now... I just watched a portion of Heart of Ice, then went and watched a portion of Gotham Knight and heard no noticeable difference except for when he was talking as Bruce Wayne. Which is understandable, since he is supposed to be playing a younger Bruce there. But other than that, it was the same Batman voice I grew up hearing. When I think of a mega confident superhero, I think of Superman or Mighty Mouse, and Conroy doesn't sound even remotely like that. He just sounds aggressive.
Trust me, the difference is there.

Listen to Conroy's voice in this clip from On Leather Wings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUkCm...eature=related

...and then compare it to his voice in this clip from Arkham Asylum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOqND_TTxH4

In the latter, he sounds more upbeat, confident with a slightly higher pitch and tone. It gives off the impression of a conventional square-jawed superhero rather than the brooding vigilante in the first video. That is why whenever I heard Batman talk in Arkham Asylum or Gotham Knight, it just felt...off.

Besides, I don't see the reason for so much hate for Bale's Batman voice. Sure, there were a few moments where it felt awkward and silly, but there were also more than enough times where it was bang on. Like when in the interrogation room, I thought he sounded absolutely brilliant - both when he was calm and when he goes completely berserk. I also love the way Bale sounds when he's trying to convince Harvey in the end. So commanding and in control even when he clearly wasn't at the moment.

I don't want Nolan and Bale to change their minds about their approach to the way their Batman talks. I simply want them to filter out and improve on the scenes in which Bale overdid it, that's all.

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Old 09-09-2009, 08:13 PM   #55
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

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I don't think there is a definitive version of either character.
I do. BTAS took all various elements from different eras in the comics and incorporated them in there with Batman and Joker. From the series itself, to the spin off movies.

It's all there.

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Old 09-09-2009, 09:24 PM   #56
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I do. BTAS took all various elements from different eras in the comics and incorporated them in there with Batman and Joker. From the series itself, to the spin off movies.

It's all there.
I agree, and I consider B:TAS to be THE definitive version of Batman.

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Old 09-09-2009, 09:59 PM   #57
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I do. BTAS took all various elements from different eras in the comics and incorporated them in there with Batman and Joker. From the series itself, to the spin off movies.

It's all there.
I don't, because it never truly explored the darker, more adult underbelly of the mythology seen in comics like Year One, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, and The Dark Knight Returns which are of course, the defining classics of the Batman lore. TAS is more accessible and appeals to the broadest possible fanbase but it lacks that touch of exclusivity, that rebellious revolutionary vision that uncompromisingly brought the character back to its serious pulp roots and were instrumental in changing the common public perception of Batman. In this regard, TAS can be best termed as a 'moderate' and 'jack of all trades, master of none' when describing it as a depiction of Batman in the context of his 70 year history.

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Old 09-09-2009, 10:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

Bale was fine with his voice in Begins. The scene where he takes Rachel to the cave to treat the effects of the toxin, is the best example. If only he could have kept that tone coming into TDK. Unfortunately he went over the top with the growl.

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Old 09-09-2009, 10:32 PM   #59
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

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I agree, and I consider B:TAS to be THE definitive version of Batman.
Ditto

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I don't, because it never truly explored the darker, more adult underbelly of the mythology seen in comics like Year One, The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, and The Dark Knight Returns which are of course, the defining classics of the Batman lore.
Yes, it did. The themes from those stories were explored in the likes of Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Trial, Batman Beyond etc.

I think the only one there not really touched upon is the Killing Joke, where Joker did something really terrible to an innocent to try and push someone else over the edge. TDK covered that one with the whole ferries and Harvey Dent thing.

But Hamill has done a dark homicidal Joker.

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Old 09-09-2009, 10:39 PM   #60
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Ditto



Yes, it did. The themes from those stories were explored in the likes of Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Trial, Batman Beyond etc.

I think the only one there not really touched upon is the Killing Joke, where Joker did something really terrible to an innocent to try and push someone else over the edge. TDK covered that one with the whole ferries and Harvey Dent thing.

But Hamill has done a dark homicidal Joker.
honestly, i dont even know why you'd try to justify it to him, when he seems like a guy who hasnt read anything batman before 1985.

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Old 09-10-2009, 02:17 AM   #61
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

the mask was the problem in TDK. The begins mask allowed Bale to breath better and have more room to talk properly and not have problems.

Bales voice sounded fine in TDK, it was distracting for a few seconds here and there, but the majority of it was good. His speech to Dent about the symbol of hope... "let her go" was great, talking to gordon on the roof, right before the prewitt building siege. Talking to lucious about the sonar near the climax, and plenty of other good examples of how the voice worked. there were just a few rough spots that completely overshadow the voice in general and give it a bad rap. come on people.

And conroy is magnificent with his work. Arkham asylum had its own spin, the joker sounded more edgier and hate to say, aged. And Batman sounded like he's been doing this for years. why disguise his voice talking to oracle? or a guard? it wouldn't make a lick of difference from all the good he's done. the voice disguising wouldn't be noticible to the average guy talking to batman. If only there was a Bruce wayne in arkham asylum, then youd have more contrast there and it would be easier to tell the difference and i think people wouldn't complain as much.

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Old 09-10-2009, 10:16 AM   #62
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the mask was the problem in TDK. The begins mask allowed Bale to breath better and have more room to talk properly and not have problems.
Really? I thought the cowl in BB was tighter, as you would see pictures of "squishy face Bale" in some scenes.

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Bales voice sounded fine in TDK, it was distracting for a few seconds here and there, but the majority of it was good. His speech to Dent about the symbol of hope... "let her go" was great, talking to gordon on the roof, right before the prewitt building siege. Talking to lucious about the sonar near the climax, and plenty of other good examples of how the voice worked. there were just a few rough spots that completely overshadow the voice in general and give it a bad rap. come on people.
Those were some of the scenes I had the most trouble with. The only scenes I didn't mind were the dinner party scene, and.......hmmmm, that may have been it.

Even though I had a problem with his voice, I can still look over those things while watching the movie, it's just strange how much a difference his voice went from BB to TDK.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:13 AM   #63
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honestly, i dont even know why you'd try to justify it to him, when he seems like a guy who hasnt read anything batman before 1985.
You are right. I haven't. And I honestly don't see any reason why someone is a lesser Batman for it. So please, you can drop the elitist attitude.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:16 AM   #64
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Really? I thought the cowl in BB was tighter, as you would see pictures of "squishy face Bale" in some scenes.
Indeed, But the TDk mask had a smaller tighter opening around the mouth area and begins was much wider. The nose was more form fitting too.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:19 AM   #65
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Yes, it did. The themes from those stories were explored in the likes of Mask of the Phantasm, Return of the Joker, Trial, Batman Beyond etc.

I think the only one there not really touched upon is the Killing Joke, where Joker did something really terrible to an innocent to try and push someone else over the edge. TDK covered that one with the whole ferries and Harvey Dent thing.

But Hamill has done a dark homicidal Joker.
I am not contesting that Hamill's Joker was dark and homicidal. I am contesting he just wasn't to the extent he was in stories like The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, The Man Who Laughs and DKR. There was always this PG-13 straitjacket wrapped around the TAS version that kept him from being as uncompromisingly dark and sinister as the one in the comics I mentioned. And it's not like I dislike the TAS incarnations because of it - no no, far from it. Like one poster already mentioned, I am part of the post 1980s era of Batman - I grew with the movies and the darker interpretations of Batman and I love TAS. I just don't agree that it is a definitive version of Batman since it has never truly explored the extreme end of the more adult and darker aspects of the character.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:25 AM   #66
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You are right. I haven't. And I honestly don't see any reason why someone is a lesser Batman for it. So please, you can drop the elitist attitude.
You're underrating the show based on your bias towards an era of Batman while undermining the fact that TAS represents ALL of it. That's why its definitive....by the way, listing 20 year old stories out of a 70 year old history of a character as "The defining stories" is incredibly short sighted and ignorant, and is pretty much a slap in the face to guys like Steve Engleheart, Dennis O Neil, Bill Finger, Marhsall Rogerts and Neal Adams, who were ones to introduce the "Adult underbelly" you love so much.

You dont even have to read those comics....but people need to realize that Batman wasn't created in the 80's...and before people jump down my throat, i'm not talking literally

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:28 AM   #67
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I am not contesting that Hamill's Joker was dark and homicidal. I am contesting he just wasn't to the extent he was in stories like The Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, The Man Who Laughs and DKR. There was always this PG-13 straitjacket wrapped around the TAS version that kept him from being as uncompromisingly dark and sinister as the one in the comics I mentioned. And it's not like I dislike the TAS incarnations because of it - no no, far from it. Like one poster already mentioned, I am part of the post 1980s era of Batman - I grew with the movies and the darker interpretations of Batman and I love TAS. I just don't agree that it is a definitive version of Batman since it has never truly explored the extreme end of the more adult and darker aspects of the character.
But it has, it just doesn't veer far from the dark/campy sides, it wraps up the good and the bad, plus all the different eras, and balances everything out perfectly. No, it doesn't have Joker slaughtering people left and right, and no, it doesn't show Batman in space fighting aliens, etc. B:TAS is a very dark show, but at the same time, it is light and fun.

You're not a good tight rope walker if you lean to the extreme right or left, you're good if you know how to balance both sides.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:32 AM   #68
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You're underrating the show based on your bias towards an era of Batman while undermining the fact that TAS represents ALL of it. That's why its definitive....by the way, listing 20 year old stories out of a 70 year old history of a character as "The defining stories" is incredibly short sighted and ignorant, and is pretty much a slap in the face to guys like Steve Engleheart, Dennis O Neil, Bill Finger, Marhsall Rogerts and Neal Adams, who were ones to introduce the "Adult underbelly" you love so much.

You dont even have to read those comics....but people need to realize that Batman wasn't created in the 80's...and before people jump down my throat, i'm not talking literally
How is disagreeing with the notion that TAS is the 'definitive' version underrating it? I don't regard it as definitive because it didn't fully recreate the version of the character I grew up with. That's not downplaying the merits of the show itself, but rather acknowledging the difference between the approach taken by the show and my own personal preferences. Just because I like the darker version of Batman more doesn't make me impervious to appreciating the more balanced TAS version. I may not like them both equally, but that doesn't mean I can only like one of them.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:37 AM   #69
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But it has, it just doesn't veer far from the dark/campy sides, it wraps up the good and the bad, plus all the different eras, and balances everything out perfectly. No, it doesn't have Joker slaughtering people left and right, and no, it doesn't show Batman in space fighting aliens, etc. B:TAS is a very dark show, but at the same time, it is light and fun.

You're not a good tight rope walker if you lean to the extreme right or left, you're good if you know how to balance both sides.
That is what I said - it is the most 'moderate' and 'jack of all trades, master of none' version of the character. But for something to be definitive, it has to satisfyingly appeal to all audiences of the character and TAS doesn't do that. It has elements of both dark and camp, whereas people like me prefer the version of Batman that is pretty much devoid of camp. Which means it is not the 'definitive' Batman for me. I don't see how that is an unreasonable statement.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:46 AM   #70
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That is what I said - it is the most 'moderate' and 'jack of all trades, master of none' version of the character. But for something to be definitive, it has to satisfyingly appeal to all audiences of the character and TAS doesn't do that. It has elements of both dark and camp, whereas people like me prefer the version of Batman that is pretty much devoid of camp. Which means it is not the 'definitive' Batman for me.
But if it's a dark show, and has some light-hearted humor/fun, doesn't that appeal to both audiences?

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I don't see how that is an unreasonable statement.
I never said it was unreasonable, I was just trying to show you what I was saying, and why I thought it was "the definitive version". I never found the statement unreasonable, as it's your opinion. I'm just having a conversation here.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:53 AM   #71
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But if it's a dark show, and has some light-hearted humor/fun, doesn't that appeal to both audiences?

I never said it was unreasonable, I was just trying to show you what I was saying, and why I thought it was "the definitive version". I never found the statement unreasonable, as it's your opinion. I'm just having a conversation here.
And I am trying to show you why I think it is not the definitive version. Sure, TAS is a dark show by cartoon standards but I still think it is nowhere near what we've seen in the comics I mentioned. The darker elements are appealing to fans like me, but not to the degree of satisfaction because it never gave me what I really want from a Batman show while the campy elements just turn me off completely.

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Old 09-10-2009, 11:54 AM   #72
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How is disagreeing with the notion that TAS is the 'definitive' version underrating it? I don't regard it as definitive because it didn't fully recreate the version of the character I grew up with. That's not downplaying the merits of the show itself, but rather acknowledging the difference between the approach taken by the show and my own personal preferences. Just because I like the darker version of Batman more doesn't make me impervious to appreciating the more balanced TAS version. I may not like them both equally, but that doesn't mean I can only like one of them.
Because its like me saying its not definitive because it wasnt like the campy Batman, and not only that, personal feelings dont always factor into subjects like this, IMO. For example,most people consider Superman: The Movie as the definitive Superman, but if you go to the superman boards, most people seem to dislike it immsensely. Does that mean S:TM isnt definitive? No...its influeneced everything superman since it came out.

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Old 09-10-2009, 12:00 PM   #73
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Because its like me saying its not definitive because it wasnt like the campy Batman, and not only that, personal feelings dont always factor into subjects like this, IMO. For example,most people consider Superman: The Movie as the definitive Superman, but if you go to the superman boards, most people seem to dislike it immsensely. Does that mean S:TM isnt definitive? No...its influeneced everything superman since it came out.
That's the problem with use of the word 'definitive' - it means final, conclusive, most authoritative. That's just the way it is used. It is simply a too inclusive term. And considering the 70 year history, is quite inappropriate to use for any incarnation of Batman. And yes, if you liked campy Batman and say TAS was not the definitive Batman, you would be right.

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Old 09-10-2009, 12:21 PM   #74
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Why the hell are we discussing this?
If anything, if there is a definitive batman its the one seen in the monthly issues of Batman. The canon ones.

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Old 09-10-2009, 01:22 PM   #75
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Default Re: Kevin Conroy's thoughts on bale and ledger

I only had a problem with the Bale voice, when the Joker is hanging up side down. But the voice works great in the scenes where he's showing his rage, interrogation and with Maroni.

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