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Old 09-23-2009, 02:45 PM   #1
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Default A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Just a concept I had today while reviewing some of the thoughts tossed around in the writers workshop thread. I did not want to derail that thread so I thought perhaps this could offer an interesting conversation: What if the reboot was done in the same vein as the Abrams Star Trek reboot? What if Superman had his own crises?

Consider this for a moment. Right now DC/WB are struggling to find the right way to introduce their catalog of characters to the public. Superman Returns was not exactly the monolithic hit it was hoped to be and outside of Batman and Green Lantern there has been zero progress on other DC tent pole characters and Returns really clouded the continuity for many fans both die hard as well as, casual at best, alike. So consider the concept, if you will, of having both a reboot and a sequel in the same movie that could jumpstart the rest of the DCU as well.

We could have Bizarro introduced in a way that makes sense and isn't ridiculous (because as fun as I find him he's very silver age) as the catalyst by creating a condenced amalgam of he and Superboy-Prime. We could introduce Barry Allen by having him be a physicist who Superman goes too for answers about the quantum restructuring of the universe. In the process the speed force discovers Allen but does not yet take him. Various other characters, like Oliver Queen, Arthur Curry, Diana Prince, etc. could be introduced as minor supporting characters. The whole of the danger is realized at the apex of the story when all sorts of strange events occur, the Planet becomes the Star, Jason and Richard disappear as if never existing along with many of the characters that would go on to become the Justice League and Superman is struggeling to understand why no one else is noticing these things and ultimately he does battle with Bizarro on the amlagam earth of these two worlds where both fight to the death until the universe re-aligns itself and Clark comes to Metropolis for the first time, a new storyline introduced. Each subsequent league character movie would have the re-alignment start off their film, just a quick thing nothing serious and for instance Barry Allen would be a forensic scientist in Central City and his origin could be told and so on. Again just a quick concept. Any thoughts?

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Old 09-23-2009, 05:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Interesting idea. This would definitely bring Superman back to his sci-fi "roots." I think you'd have to keep the number of DCU cameos to minimum, in order not to confuse the general public. They would have to dumb the story down enough for the GA to get. (The new Star Trek film is in no way as scientifically accurate as its predecessors.) If you can keep from being lost in the minutia, this may work.

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Old 09-23-2009, 06:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Imo, it should be done along those lines.

That way everybody win (a lot of superman returns fans, "Haters" etc) and you get to introduce the dcu in a fresh way very different than what Marvel is doing.

Kudos.

Diane Nelson, please take note

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Old 09-23-2009, 11:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

its an interesting idea man, i could be down with something like that. But it sounds like something way to big for just one film. Plus from what we know wb wants to develop each character separate now.

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Old 09-24-2009, 06:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

are we talking here about a superman movie or a DC movie?
hey i respect thinking outside of the box......but how could this be done in one movie?

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Old 09-24-2009, 10:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

that is what i was coming at. There is just way to many elements to make it in one movie. Let alone half of these characters have yet to grace the silver screen and alot of joe public wont know/understand who they are.

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Old 09-24-2009, 03:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Like I said it's just a concept I was thinking about. I don't see how it's too big for one movie. I think it's really simple.

First act: extends current continutity and the mystery of quantum spacial and chronological restructuring is introduced.

Second act: worlds collide and quantum spacial and chronological restructuring is explained by Barry Allen.

Third act: restructuring is completed with the climactic death of both Bizarro/Prime and Superman and ultimate reintroduction of the Superman mythos.

My idea for the other characters are simply little easter eggs reffering to them. Perhaps Clark is doing some research with Barry and talking about various disappearences and appearances of people like Ollie, Arthur and Diana. Not as the heroes but rather as people of not, for example the appearance of two kingdom and their leader's Arthur Curry and Diana Prince, the multibillionaire heir Oliver Queen.

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Old 09-24-2009, 03:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

i think this would be a great idea to go with if they had a bunch of film series actively going/ending.

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Old 09-24-2009, 04:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

I'll expand on my concept a bit here.

First Act: We start were we left off with SR. In his sleep Clark hears: dark, anguished screams of terror and fury when he awakes his vision uncontrollably views the quantum structure of the universe and he see's that it's mutating. He has an uneasy feeling of the world shedding around him. Something like a global ecological disaster, major flooding, massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Lex's entire history is changed to become the current CEO mastermind. Superman appears to be the only person to notice this as out of the ordinary. He seeks out the reknowned quantum physicist Barry Allen and they start to develop the theory of quantum re-alignment by an unknown force.

Second Act: Richard and Jason are completly vanished from time and memory. It's discovered that at the quantum level an energy force is out of place and is causing the restructuring. The worlds begin to meld. There is mass chaos and finally Bizarro appears and reaks havoc. Here we discover that in the opposite dimension Lex's paranoid delusions are true and Superman is an alien invader. There Lex and Supes duel until Luthor develops a weapon that will trap Superman in the quantum structure of the universe. However when the two dimensions melded Luthor became an amalgam of both which causes him to become the modern Luthor.

Third Act: Superman and Bizarro fight it out in grand style when they ultimately kill each other off the universe realigns to the new storyline and Bizarro is simply Luthors delusion and Clark is the rebooted Clark. It ends with him entering The Daily Planet for the first time.

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Old 09-24-2009, 07:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

interesting, though barry is just a cop wouldnt you want to the atom instead who is a scientist.

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Old 09-24-2009, 10:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

If Richard and Jason disappear they'll have to be rescued or recreated at some point wouldn't they? Otherwise the audience would wonder what became of them.

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Old 09-25-2009, 04:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Democrat View Post
Like I said it's just a concept I was thinking about. I don't see how it's too big for one movie. I think it's really simple.
.
there is your problem. how will the general public look at this ?
you know more then they do.

plus a superman movie should IMO have a simple story. ''relax end enjoy the ride''

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Old 09-25-2009, 01:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

I really don't think the general audience is given enough credit by both the studios and many film buffs. We see huge numbers for depressing trope like G.I. Joe or Transformers and immediately assume that its because people are absolutely stupid and really enjoy being spoon fed garbage. Of course the truth is that those movies still pale in comparison to both box office and cultural influence of fare like Star Wars, The Dark Knight, the Bourne and Bond movies Spiderman and Iron Man all of which are popcorn movies with complicated themes, well drawn ideas and occasionally complex plots. I submit that the same people who go to see the latter also go to see the former and enjoy both albeit though unequally.

These concepts aren't difficult to quickly explain and display. They are already out there in the world, hell Crichton's Timeline revolved around them. They are a fundemental aspect of the modern popular science. They need no more explanation than genetics did in Jurassic Park.

If Richard and Jason disappear they could be easily recreated by simply having Richard be married to someone else rather than in a relationship with Lois.

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Old 09-25-2009, 01:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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interesting, though barry is just a cop wouldnt you want to the atom instead who is a scientist.
Yeah I just thought it would be a fun Easter egg to fans being that Flash always dies in the crises. I had this image ala Watchmen of the Speed Force taking Barry at some point and maybe Ray being tossed in there as another physicist working with him.

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Old 09-25-2009, 02:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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Originally Posted by The Democrat View Post
I really don't think the general audience is given enough credit by both the studios and many film buffs. We see huge numbers for depressing trope like G.I. Joe or Transformers and immediately assume that its because people are absolutely stupid and really enjoy being spoon fed garbage. Of course the truth is that those movies still pale in comparison to both box office and cultural influence of fare like Star Wars, The Dark Knight, the Bourne and Bond movies Spiderman and Iron Man all of which are popcorn movies with complicated themes, well drawn ideas and occasionally complex plots. I submit that the same people who go to see the latter also go to see the former and enjoy both albeit though unequally.

These concepts aren't difficult to quickly explain and display. They are already out there in the world, hell Crichton's Timeline revolved around them. They are a fundemental aspect of the modern popular science. They need no more explanation than genetics did in Jurassic Park.

If Richard and Jason disappear they could be easily recreated by simply having Richard be married to someone else rather than in a relationship with Lois.
"It's a Wonderful Life" did it; i.e. create an alternate reality. The "crisis" being the non-birth of George Bailey.

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Old 09-25-2009, 02:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

what if atom is the scientist and barry is working with him is still a cop like he is. Then he does die to save the world.

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Old 09-25-2009, 03:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

I still think Jason and Richard can't disappear without being rediscovered. The audience would wonder what happened to them. Perhaps they could be saved at the end of the trilogy.

Luthor becoming comics Luthor through a process of amalgamation is too complicated, too. Why not just reboot if the characters have to have so much about them change?

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Old 09-25-2009, 03:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

i have the same feeling rachel, this idea is cool an all. But so much is going on. When it would be best to keep it simple.

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Old 09-25-2009, 06:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

The Gp didn't mind at all this kind of idea with star trek

I dig how you develloped your ideas The Democrat.

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Old 09-25-2009, 07:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

First Barry Allen is a Police forensic SCIENTIST, he's not "just a cop."
Second, the GP didn't mind this kind of idea in Star Trek, because Star Trek's plot was nowhere near this complicated. Star Trek used very basic time travel "law," straight out of Back to the Future to explain what happened. The characters knew that they were in a parallel dimension, and essentially explained on screen why this franchise's time-line will not match the original show. The Democrat is suggesting that the time-line is being altered in front of our eyes, and we are witnessing the changes occurring in these characters, rather than just accepting that these are alternate versions of these characters right from the get go. This is a far more complicated story.

Dem, I LOVE the idea, and if you're up for it I'd love to see more people (myself included) blow as many holes in the plot/point out as many flaws in the plan as possible and have you address them. If you can do this, and people can no longer find major flaws, then you will have a film outline that will actually work (at least on paper). The problem is WB will probably never make it, so it may not be worth your time. LOL

Edit/PS: The sky must be red at some point in the film!


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Old 09-25-2009, 07:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Just my 2 cents....
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Democrat View Post
I'll expand on my concept a bit here.

First Act: We start were we left off with SR. In his sleep Clark hears: dark, anguished screams of terror and fury when he awakes his vision uncontrollably views the quantum structure of the universe and he see's that it's mutating. He has an uneasy feeling of the world shedding around him. Something like a global ecological disaster, major flooding, massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.
The next morning in Metropolis, the skyline has changed slightly. Some of the buildings are far more modern and now LexCorp tower is the tallest building in the city. (We'd need a scene at the beginning of the film establishing that this is indeed the SR universe, so that the changes become clear.)
Quote:
Lex's entire history is changed to become the current CEO mastermind. Superman appears to be the only person to notice this as out of the ordinary. He seeks out the reknowned quantum physicist Barry Allen and they start to develop the theory of quantum re-alignment by an unknown force.

Second Act: Richard and Jason are completly vanished from time and memory. It's discovered that at the quantum level an energy force is out of place and is causing the restructuring. The worlds begin to meld. There is mass chaos and finally Bizarro appears and reaks havoc. Here we discover that in the opposite dimension Lex's paranoid delusions are true and Superman is an alien invader.
Here's were things get tricky, IMO. How do you introduce a parallel dimension, and how many do you show? This can be done, I'm just saying this is where it starts to get more complicated than say, Star Trek.
Quote:
There Lex and Supes duel until Luthor develops a weapon that will trap Superman in the quantum structure of the universe. However when the two dimensions melded Luthor became an amalgam of both which causes him to become the modern Luthor.
It sounds like in your idea, we basically have the CSA Earth (S?), where Lex is the only hero, and Ultraman is a villain. Perhaps instead of Bizarro, you can use Ultraman and have him merge with "Superboy Prime" (or whatever character you reference as playing that kind of role) to become the villain? ("Bizarro")
Quote:
Third Act: Superman and Bizarro fight it out in grand style when they ultimately kill each other off the universe realigns to the new storyline and Bizarro is simply Luthors delusion and Clark is the rebooted Clark. It ends with him entering The Daily Planet for the first time.

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Old 09-25-2009, 10:43 PM   #22
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The Gp didn't mind at all this kind of idea with star trek
But major characters from ST didn't just disappear. A parallel world was created before the Enterprise had any of their adventures. The original movie world hasn't ceased existing. If Kirk had begun ST by being a family man with a wife and kid and they disappeared into a parallel universe the audience would be expecting them to be retrieved at some point.

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Old 09-26-2009, 10:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Oh, I welcome all criticism. Like I've said I'm not terribly connected to this idea. I have about twenty revolving concepts for reboots and sequels none of which I really care about. It's like a hobby for me that takes up almost zero percent of my time.

Truth is though the general audience overlooks massive plot holes on a very regular basis in movies so I really don't think they'd have a hard time with the idea of Jason and Richard disappearing. I highly doubt there are people out there that ever really got truly invested in their characters in the last movie being that they were entirely one dimensional. With that said it would be really easy to simply show Richard and his son Jason being introduced to Clark on his first day at the Daily Planet at the end.

I'll admit this is more complicated than Star Trek or Back to the Future. Only because they both attribute the change directly to say dark matter or a flux capacitor. I have a displaced energy breaking apart the quantum structure of the universe. The scientific basis for that is entirely zero and just as insane as dark matter or a machine concocted after falling off a toilet. With that said it's not too complicated to cover through one film. All it takes is for Superman to notice the differences Barry to explain them and Bizarro to embody them.

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Old 09-26-2009, 10:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

This a bit of an amalgam of several different stories. Bizarro really is Ultraman mixed with Superboy Prime. I simply wouldn't refer to any of those characters. Give him the angst of Prime, the motivations of Ultraman and look similar to Bizarro.

Luthor in Returns has the modern Lex personality already. It's simply his situation and resources that would change. The only reason I mentioned this at all was the Returns back and forth with the Rebooters. I also see it as a way of jumpstarting and explaining the DCU. It seems to be the Returns loyalists are the new Wellingites. Which is fine.

Imagine the pitch for this. It's like Abrams Star Trek only with Superman!

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Old 09-26-2009, 10:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal-El Fan View Post
First Barry Allen is a Police forensic SCIENTIST, he's not "just a cop."
Second, the GP didn't mind this kind of idea in Star Trek, because Star Trek's plot was nowhere near this complicated. Star Trek used very basic time travel "law," straight out of Back to the Future to explain what happened. The characters knew that they were in a parallel dimension, and essentially explained on screen why this franchise's time-line will not match the original show. The Democrat is suggesting that the time-line is being altered in front of our eyes, and we are witnessing the changes occurring in these characters, rather than just accepting that these are alternate versions of these characters right from the get go. This is a far more complicated story.

Dem, I LOVE the idea, and if you're up for it I'd love to see more people (myself included) blow as many holes in the plot/point out as many flaws in the plan as possible and have you address them. If you can do this, and people can no longer find major flaws, then you will have a film outline that will actually work (at least on paper). The problem is WB will probably never make it, so it may not be worth your time. LOL

Edit/PS: The sky must be red at some point in the film!

While I'm not doing this in the hope that someone at WB would take notice and make it into a film. Honestly I'll be surprised if Superman moves at all in the next decade. I think they made a conscious decision to use the rest of the DCU rather than work on the resource suck that has become the Superman franchise.

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