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Old 09-26-2009, 01:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

The issue with this isn't plotholes. I see what you're going for...but from a creative standpoint it strikes me as even more of a copout than STAR TREK's "alternate reality" angle was. Completely unneccessary. I think it's silly to make a "pseudo sequel" just to explain why Richard and Jason don't exist (which isn't exactly furthering their stories) and things are more faithful than previous films. What I'm getting at...it's lazy writing, akin to "Let's just change things for the hell of it, but not being brave enough to actually "start over".

I like alternate universes, but you've got to be careful with them, and not use them as gimmicks. The Crisises have had some great concepts over the years, but arbitarily using them to fix continuity issues is not one of them. I actually did something similar in a parody script I wrote called THE BATMAN FAMILY many years ago, but I can't see this being taken seriously.

Not only is it going to draw immediate parallells to STAR TREK, but it feels more like a JUSTICE LEAGUE film, albeit not a full or very satisfying one, than a Superman movie. While I appreciated Diana's "cameo" in Alex Ford's MAN OF STEEL script, I really don't see the point in using multiple JLA characters in cameos when you probably already have Superman characters that deserve to fill those roles. I don't mind the idea of Bizarro and an alternate universe in a least, but a remotely faithful Bizarro world wouldn't just have small differences like this. Otherwise Bizarro would just be another Superman, not...well...Bizarro. I see what you're getting at...I just think it's a little shaky as you've phrased it.

Just reboot the franchise somehow. People won't complain that much.

What are your other 20 ideas? You have some interesting concepts here, I'm intrigued what else you've got.

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Old 09-26-2009, 01:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

i said it the other day it would be much simpler to just make a cut and dry reboot clean slate story, then trying to do this whole big bang multiverse coming undone thing.

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Old 09-26-2009, 01:55 PM   #28
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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Truth is though the general audience overlooks massive plot holes on a very regular basis in movies so I really don't think they'd have a hard time with the idea of Jason and Richard disappearing. I highly doubt there are people out there that ever really got truly invested in their characters in the last movie being that they were entirely one dimensional. With that said it would be really easy to simply show Richard and his son Jason being introduced to Clark on his first day at the Daily Planet at the end.
That could be true. Oddly enough, I think if a sequel were made to SR and Jason and Richard never appeared in it at all, the audience wouldn't even notice just because SR and its plot were so forgettable. The problem is, when you introduce these characters at the start of the movie, set them up as Superman's son and Lois fiance and just have them vanish, the audience will expect Superman to move heaven and earth to get them back. Like The Guard says, it's a cop-out. If Jason, Richard, and Lex need to be written out of the movie or changed so dramatically, we might as well just reboot.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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I see what you're going for...but from a creative standpoint it strikes me as even more of a copout than STAR TREK's "alternate reality" angle was. Completely unneccessary. I think it's silly to make a "pseudo sequel" just to explain why Richard and Jason don't exist (which isn't exactly furthering their stories) and things are more faithful than previous films. What I'm getting at...it's lazy writing, akin to "Let's just change things for the hell of it, but not being brave enough to actually "start over".

I like alternate universes, but you've got to be careful with them, and not use them as gimmicks. The Crisises have had some great concepts over the years, but arbitarily using them to fix continuity issues is not one of them. I actually did something similar in a parody script I wrote called THE BATMAN FAMILY many years ago, but I can't see this being taken seriously.

Not only is it going to draw immediate parallells to STAR TREK, but it feels more like a JUSTICE LEAGUE film, albeit not a full or very satisfying one, than a Superman movie. While I appreciated Diana's "cameo" in Alex Ford's MAN OF STEEL script, I really don't see the point in using multiple JLA characters in cameos when you probably already have Superman characters that deserve to fill those roles. I don't mind the idea of Bizarro and an alternate universe in a least, but a remotely faithful Bizarro world wouldn't just have small differences like this. Otherwise Bizarro would just be another Superman, not...well...Bizarro. I see what you're getting at...I just think it's a little shaky as you've phrased it.

Just reboot the franchise somehow. People won't complain that much.

What are your other 20 ideas? You have some interesting concepts here, I'm intrigued what else you've got.

Well frankly I think reboots (FF, Hulk, Batman) are cop-outs in general. I don't see much need for a semi-sequel reboot either. I personally agree and think that carrying the franchise on from Returns would be a bold and brave move, really seizing the "lets change things for the hell of it and throw a kid in the mix" problem they created and own it and develop it from the gimmick it was until it's something worthwhile.

I don't write fan scripts. I don't look down on those who do and when I was younger I tried writing a sequel to B&R but lost interest in it quickly afterward. Like I said I throw these ideas around every once in a while. In some thread on here I proposed a Death of Superman reboot. Various other reboot angles. It usually never gets beyond one or two posts.

I agree that the crises' have great concepts but their entire existence is based around the idea of ret-conning and explaining the past stories. The concept itself is arbitrary and overused.

I don't throw these ideas out there because they are going to be taken seriously. Regardless if our fanboy rumors are true that people involved in the making of these movies read these boards. I don't propose this stuff because I want them to pick up on it. I do it simply because I come on here to check up on rumors and see some of the conversations and get ideas. I might as well share them.

I think right now we could use someone drawing parallels to Star Trek. I'm really just using Bizarro as a sort of filler to see him on screen. I mean I could just say evil Superman.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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That could be true. Oddly enough, I think if a sequel were made to SR and Jason and Richard never appeared in it at all, the audience wouldn't even notice just because SR and its plot were so forgettable. The problem is, when you introduce these characters at the start of the movie, set them up as Superman's son and Lois fiance and just have them vanish, the audience will expect Superman to move heaven and earth to get them back. Like The Guard says, it's a cop-out. If Jason, Richard, and Lex need to be written out of the movie or changed so dramatically, we might as well just reboot.
It is a cop out but barring them actually owning the mess they got themselves in I think whatever they do is a cop out. Like I said above that you probably didn't get a chance to read being that we posted about the same time was that the really bold way out is to accept what they have. That being said I just think it's an interesting concept and one of many ways to reboot it. I think it's a way of keeping Routh as Superman (I liked him even if I think they gave him a crap story to work with). I think it's a way of moderating the critics in the fan community. That is it.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:29 PM   #31
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

Edit

I misunderstood what has been said.

as for the concept that democrat propose, yes it is more complicated that star trek, but so is the matrix, and it worked isn't it ?(and i don't find it so complicated personnally)

superman doesn't need imo a movie that deal with a fairly simple story a la transformers. superman isn't cool anymore. a transformers is ..people assume that a superman fight would be what he needs. it would be one thing yes, but nobody ever seen massive fights onscreen recently? Superman shouldn't have a cool suit of armor to be cool we agree on that but imo it need to be reeintroducced with a fresh approach.and this concept well executed could satisfy (and excite )i think "everybody" , because among other things it is new.


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Old 09-26-2009, 02:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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i said it the other day it would be much simpler to just make a cut and dry reboot clean slate story, then trying to do this whole big bang multiverse coming undone thing.
It most definitely would. That wouldn't really satiate the SR fans in any way. I'm just spit balling an idea here.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

I am aware of why Crisis was created as a project, but a streamlined continuity was not the most unique concept to come of that storyline. The actual execution of the continuity streamlining portion of Crisis was somewhat abitrary, and dare I say, lazy.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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I am aware of why Crisis was created as a project, but a streamlined continuity was not the most unique concept to come of that storyline. The actual execution of the continuity streamlining portion of Crisis was somewhat abitrary, and dare I say, lazy.
I in no way meant to say that it was. Some truly interesting concepts have come out of it. I think we agree on that much. I have no illusions that this would ever be the way they chose to go with the franchise. Though I think it could be a fun, fresh way to do it.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:44 PM   #35
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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Edit

I misunderstood what has been said.

as for the concept that democrat propose, yes it is more complicated that star trek, but so is the matrix, and it worked isn't it ?(and i don't find it so complicated personnally)

superman doesn't need imo a movie that deal with a fairly simple story a la transformers. superman isn't cool anymore. a transformers is ..people assume that a superman fight would be what he needs. it would be one thing yes, but nobody ever seen massive fights onscreen recently? Superman shouldn't have a cool suit of armor to be cool we agree on that but imo it need to be reeintroducced with a fresh approach.and this concept well executed could satisfy (and excite )i think "everybody" , because among other things it is new.
Well I don't think this needs to be Matrix level complicated as those sequels are completely muddled.

I think we can all agree that we don't want Superman to be a Micheal Bay style schmaltz.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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I am aware of why Crisis was created as a project, but a streamlined continuity was not the most unique concept to come of that storyline. The actual execution of the continuity streamlining portion of Crisis was somewhat abitrary, and dare I say, lazy.
Yes when i reread you i understood that way, sorry

So yes, it was arbitrary.. lazy maybe define it?

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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Well I don't think this needs to be Matrix level complicated as those sequels are completely muddled.

I think we can all agree that we don't want Superman to be a Micheal Bay style schmaltz.
Ho no i was not talking about those sequels, and it doesn't need to be matrix level complicated , but it was just an example that "prove"that the Gp can grasp or (rather) be interested in "bizarre" concept. ( even, if i think that the first matrix was GP friendly)


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Old 09-26-2009, 02:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

I really believe that comic books and Sci-Fi in general are mostly bland. They are both genre's that emulate themselves. Superman can have that problem in spades being that it combines both genres. For example what Morrison has done with Batman I think was really creative and I laud both he and DC for going through with it. What Metzer did with Identity Crisis. What Moore did with...well I guess it would be easier to ask when he didn't do something interesting and above par. I just would like one movie based on this to shake it up a bit. Superman is the perfect character to do that being that he does straddle both genres.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:54 PM   #39
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But major characters from ST didn't just disappear. A parallel world was created before the Enterprise had any of their adventures. The original movie world hasn't ceased existing. If Kirk had begun ST by being a family man with a wife and kid and they disappeared into a parallel universe the audience would be expecting them to be retrieved at some point.
Well Democrat has answered for me. Richard could be reintroducce later living a different life (and maybe we could see a photo of jason where his image fade away a la back to the future jk. but hey : )

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:57 PM   #40
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

dont get me wrong i do love scifi/fantasy stuff and i do love shows that involve multiverses/parallel dimensions. I think this idea of yours would work alot better as a teamup type of film. Were as a bunch of characters like gl/flash/batman/etc... had at least a few films out and they all come together and then the whole crazy dimension stuff coms out. So we can see how these characters were and how much the alter dimensions change things around.

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Old 09-26-2009, 03:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

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Well Democrat has answered for me. Richard could be reintroducce later living a different life (and maybe we could see a photo of jason where his image fade away a la back to the future jk. but hey : )
Frankly any of the characters disappearing is problematic to me all together. It's simply because energy cannot be created or destroyed so really keeping them around but unrelated to Lois or Clark would be more sound.

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Old 09-26-2009, 03:06 PM   #42
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dont get me wrong i do love scifi/fantasy stuff and i do love shows that involve multiverses/parallel dimensions. I think this idea of yours would work alot better as a teamup type of film. Were as a bunch of characters like gl/flash/batman/etc... had at least a few films out and they all come together and then the whole crazy dimension stuff coms out. So we can see how these characters were and how much the alter dimensions change things around.
I wouldn't mind seeing that either but I think it works much tighter as a Superman film because it's so indicative of his mythos. What better place to both introduce the idea that there is a DCU albeit in easter eggs and that there are all these terrific concepts that can be mined than in a Superman film. I think it works on many different levels.

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Old 09-26-2009, 04:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: A Case of the What If Syndrome?

After the crisis passes, just have richard and jason appear on an alternate world, all safe and sound. Maybe that earths richard and jason were killed during the crisis and this pair appears in their place.
I assume a crisis of this magnitude would involve all the alternate earths.

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