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Old 11-21-2009, 11:53 PM   #51
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

ck you do have some interesting thoughts, and sure they are your opinions on things. Like i said in an earlier post. There is tons of ways were the story could go with using all the classic and well loved elements of the character. Its just the writer way on how they should do it and what elements to use and all that.

For me i want to see krypton, jorel, and its destruction, brainiac if in film tied to krypton would be nice. The kents finding and raising clark and they are both alive well into his superman career. Then you have to have the daily planet perry/lois/jimmy and all that. So we can develop the clark kent character and why he does what he does and becomes the being known as superman. Then lex i do want to see, doesnt need to be the head villain he could be secondary/the puppet master of things. Also he def has to be corp lex with maybe some hints towards his political aspirations and all that.

As for doing film with just lana, and no dp/lois and no lex. I dont know if that would go over well. As for all the failed attempts in the 90s and early 00s sure they had alot of crazy things. But really we dont know why wb in the end decided to go with the donnor like story again. But its clear now to them it isnt the way to go any more.

More likely then not superman is going to be a full restart next go. They will likely want things to be visually and story wise different from donnors film and all that. Plus it would be the best thing for the next superman. So the story/actors are not stuck trying to be one thing and not their own thing and all that.

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Old 11-22-2009, 06:25 AM   #52
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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What? I didn't say it was a big change, all I said is that it's one of the few things that Nolan did that was different from the comics. I didn't mind the change at all!
It seemed like you did. It was basically the same thing but you claimed that Nolan went the opposite direction of Burton, but that is not true in any level.
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Catwoman and Talia were never in a million years going to be in Batman Begins because there is waaay to much back story for both of them. And Wonder Woman? I know I asked before if you've ever read a Geoff Johns comic before, but have you actually ever read any comic before? Because as far as I know WW and Batman Have only been linked in JL TAS and that wasn't even a love interest, that was more like intense flirting.
I never said they should be in the origin story, i just said that they are more well known batgals than Vicky Vale.
As for Wonder Woman, they flirted in JL TAS but Dini has stated that they hinted at their relationship without showing it because 1) it was a kid's show and 2) they didnt want to enrage the fans.
Also, their romance was explored in a Justice League issue (and perhaps more that i dont know of) when WW uses a future viewing machine to explore the possible futures she could have with Bruce. She sees the following possible futures:
a) She adopts a bat motif and they fight crime in gotham. (Or was it their daughter and son instead of WW and Bats themselves? I could never tell)
b) They live in Themyscira. She stays with him even though he grows old and she doesnt. In the end he dies leaving her alone.
c) The Joker kills Batman, leaving her alone. She puts his head through a wall but that doesnt bring Bruce back.
In the end she decides that they cant be together because their big differences wont allow them to have a happy future, so they decide to just be friends. Thats as far as i can remember. So yeah... I read comics.


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Old 11-22-2009, 06:33 AM   #53
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

The thing is that so far in the movies we have only seen the pre-Infinite Crisis versions of Superman, Lex and Zod. Since then these characters, and especially the first two have changed a lot. We got some of the modern Lex in "Lois and Clark" and "Smallville", but never on the big screen. So basically Donner's movies have not only touched a limited part of the franchise, but they are outdated as well.

Simply by giving us the current versions of the characters and more villains would be a big enough change to revive the franchise. Make it fresh and exciting like Lois and Clark, deep in its stories like the Nolan movies, humorous like Ironman (Lois and Clark dynamic for that), filled with beautiful shots like S:Returns, exploring the beauty of the franchise without being limited by realism like Hellboy, etc.
Superman is the easiest Superhero to do. I mean, have a look at the tons of successful comics he's had or S:TAS and you'll see what makes him successful. Use those elements in the film.


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Old 11-22-2009, 12:34 PM   #54
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

totally i want in the next series of movies to try and adapt more modern stuff to like corp/political lex, clark is the person and superman is just what he can do take, and then also throw in traits/characteristics of other eras too to make it a rounded out take on everything.

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Old 11-22-2009, 02:11 PM   #55
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

Batman and WW would of made a great couple though.

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Old 11-22-2009, 08:40 PM   #56
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Post Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

I'm going to have to pull out a page from Doctor Who.

There are events that happen in history that are locked in time and cannot be touched, altered or changed. Superman's origin is exactly one of those things. I would like to believe that there are celestial forces in the DC universe that protect the events that led to Kal-El being sent to Earth.

No matter how many times someone tried to alter Earth's history, Pomeii will always be be destroyed. September 11th will always kill thousands. And Krypton will always be destroyed and the baby Kal-El will always land on Earth.

Superman's origin should never be changed.

Even though John Byrne retconned his history by having both Jonathan and Martha Kent survive into Clark's adulthood. And I'm sure Superman's story has been firther retconned. I stopped reading comic books a long time ago.

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Old 11-22-2009, 09:04 PM   #57
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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Batman and WW would of made a great couple though.
Yeah, for a while anyway.

It would not last forever though.

Bruce is not the settling down type. He never has lasting relationships.

Wonder Woman also is immortal, and Bruce will one day grow old (well if he is lucky enough, given his life style).

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Old 11-22-2009, 10:17 PM   #58
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

Yeah I see what you mean.....So who can WW hook up with?....Martian Manhunter?....Hal Jordon?....Wally West?

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Old 11-22-2009, 10:40 PM   #59
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

yea i think bruce and diana would be a good couple but things would never work due to his life choices and all that.

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Old 11-23-2009, 05:34 AM   #60
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I read "Batman/Superman/WonderWoman: Trinity" some time ago and supposedly its an elseworlds story (or is it canon?) about the first time WonderWoman left her island and worked with Superman and Batman to stop Ras. At some point during the story, Diana meets up with the other two while Batman is beating the crap out of a thug to get information. She is appalled by his savagery while later she is irritated by Batman's rude manners. Later on, Superman explains to her that Bruce doesnt have a lasso of truth so he has to extract information through fear and pain, nor is he indestructible, so he has to dress like a bat to use fear to win battles before they even begin. So at that point WW starts to understand and admire the man who manages to stand between gods without having any powers but his will and brain.
So in that sense, WW developing a romance with Bruce instead of Superman in the JL made a lot more sense to me. Besides, Supes is with Lois.

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Old 11-23-2009, 09:14 AM   #61
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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The thing is that so far in the movies we have only seen the pre-Infinite Crisis versions of Superman, Lex and Zod. Since then these characters, and especially the first two have changed a lot. We got some of the modern Lex in "Lois and Clark" and "Smallville", but never on the big screen. So basically Donner's movies have not only touched a limited part of the franchise, but they are outdated as well.

Simply by giving us the current versions of the characters and more villains would be a big enough change to revive the franchise. Make it fresh and exciting like Lois and Clark, deep in its stories like the Nolan movies, humorous like Ironman (Lois and Clark dynamic for that), filled with beautiful shots like S:Returns, exploring the beauty of the franchise without being limited by realism like Hellboy, etc.
Superman is the easiest Superhero to do. I mean, have a look at the tons of successful comics he's had or S:TAS and you'll see what makes him successful. Use those elements in the film.
Right. So what you're saying is you want the MODERN version of Superman that's based on the 80's and 90's version of Superman. If you're talking about POST-CRISIS Superman, you should know that by 2000 it was already starting to change from Byrne's version that was created in 1986. With Birthright in 2003, Post-Crisis Superman was completely taken out of continuity.

And on the subject on S:TAS, Timm and his crew did a great job on that show and gave us not only one of the best takes on Superman but easily the best take on Post-Crisis Superman yet! And yet S:TAS wasn't anywhere near as popular as B:TAS in termes of ratings and critical acclaim.

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Old 11-23-2009, 09:23 AM   #62
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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I'm going to have to pull out a page from Doctor Who.

There are events that happen in history that are locked in time and cannot be touched, altered or changed. Superman's origin is exactly one of those things. I would like to believe that there are celestial forces in the DC universe that protect the events that led to Kal-El being sent to Earth.

No matter how many times someone tried to alter Earth's history, Pomeii will always be be destroyed. September 11th will always kill thousands. And Krypton will always be destroyed and the baby Kal-El will always land on Earth.

Superman's origin should never be changed.

Even though John Byrne retconned his history by having both Jonathan and Martha Kent survive into Clark's adulthood. And I'm sure Superman's story has been firther retconned. I stopped reading comic books a long time ago.
I completely agree with you! Sadly, it doesn't look like WB does. The truth is they've always wanted a different take on Superman and it doesn't look like that's going to stop any time soon. Between:

1)Burton/Cage
2)Ratner
3)MCG
4)Darker palette, kid.etc. in SR
5)Angry God and Superman has to be Darker comments after SR

The righting is on the wall. So the point of this thread was to come up with ways of making a classic take on the character, in a very different way.

Again I hope all of us get our way and they don't change anything, but sadly I don't see that happening. I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong by the WB!

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Old 11-23-2009, 11:03 AM   #63
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

I haven't read all the responses so someone may have already said this.
IMO, there is no way they can make a Superman film without rehashing things we've seen before, be it updated or not. The ONLY thing they can do is get the right director, cast, and make sure it has plenty of epic action. If they can do that, I have no doubt they'll have a hit on their hands.

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Old 11-23-2009, 11:08 AM   #64
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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What? I didn't say it was a big change, all I said is that it's one of the few things that Nolan did that was different from the comics. I didn't mind the change at all!

Catwoman and Talia were never in a million years going to be in Batman Begins because there is waaay to much back story for both of them. And Wonder Woman? I know I asked before if you've ever read a Geoff Johns comic before, but have you actually ever read any comic before? Because as far as I know WW and Batman Have only been linked in JL TAS and that wasn't even a love interest, that was more like intense flirting.
Its kind of ironic that you said this to Mr. Earle when he said the exact same thing to me about not reading any comics or watching any animated series. I had a good laugh with this one. I'm going to have to agree with GreenKToo in that were going to see some things rehased if they do the reboot, but frankly it can be done better then STM so I want to see it. And whoever said S3 and S4 are better then batman forever and B & R? Really... S3 and 4 were horrible movies.

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Old 11-23-2009, 11:29 AM   #65
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

Superman III had its moments, but overall it was bad, like really bad. I remember seeing it in the theater and being sooo disappointed that they made it a comedy.

Superman IV was horrible, like the Punisher with Dolph Lundgren horrible.

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Old 11-23-2009, 12:27 PM   #66
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Right. So what you're saying is you want the MODERN version of Superman that's based on the 80's and 90's version of Superman. If you're talking about POST-CRISIS Superman, you should know that by 2000 it was already starting to change from Byrne's version that was created in 1986. With Birthright in 2003, Post-Crisis Superman was completely taken out of continuity.

And on the subject on S:TAS, Timm and his crew did a great job on that show and gave us not only one of the best takes on Superman but easily the best take on Post-Crisis Superman yet! And yet S:TAS wasn't anywhere near as popular as B:TAS in termes of ratings and critical acclaim.
Just like i said in the "Legion Origin" thread, you cant judge the success of a live action movie because 12 year old kids preferred BTAS to STAS. Besides, STAS was still very successful.

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Old 11-23-2009, 12:30 PM   #67
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Its kind of ironic that you said this to Mr. Earle when he said the exact same thing to me about not reading any comics or watching any animated series. I had a good laugh with this one. I'm going to have to agree with GreenKToo in that were going to see some things rehased if they do the reboot, but frankly it can be done better then STM so I want to see it. And whoever said S3 and S4 are better then batman forever and B & R? Really... S3 and 4 were horrible movies.
Huh? I don't know if you're talking to me but who brought up the batman movies or Superman 3/4?

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:03 PM   #68
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

I honestly feel that one of the better solutions would be simply to follow the animated series with current comic elements mixed in. Personally I don't need to see his high school years as much as we have in previous films or in SV, but I would settle for him practicing a couple of powers early on, training in the Fortress and a glimpse of the suit design with Martha. As for Krypton, I'd prefer we learn its history through a Brainiac plot, which could be expanded on in another film with the introduction of Supergirl.

When it all comes down to it, I don't think reshaping/retelling Superman,or whatever you want to call it, is a problem. I think the challenge is still grasping the GA's interest in what seems to be a tiring "seen it before" story to them. It just needs to be fine tweaked enough to garner more interest from the GA in my eyes, to get them over the hill of "another Superman movie?"; and I think what most of them would prefer is more action and clarification that this is the new/current film continuity and isn't related to anything previously.

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:30 PM   #69
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Yeah I see what you mean.....So who can WW hook up with?....Martian Manhunter?....Hal Jordon?....Wally West?

I like Alex Ross' idea that eventually her and Superman get together, long after Lois passes away.

Depending on who is writing, Superman has been protrayed as also being ageless, or at least only aging a finite amount. He would look a little bit more mature, get some silver hair above his ears, but his physique would never look like an old man's would look like a man in his 40's who has stayed in very good shape.

So he could vastly outlive non-immortal romantic lives. As a result he and WW are a good fit, and not just to please Kevin Smith.

Not that there would be much of such a romance in modern times. Superman is not about to be leaving Lois for Diana.

You would really only see WW and SM together in Elseworlds or possible futures and such.

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Old 11-23-2009, 01:34 PM   #70
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Superman ages at a slower rate. But ages nonetheless. In Kingdom Come he looked like he a man in his 50ies.
Diana on the other hand is immortal, as far as time is concerned. She is already 2 thousand years old.

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Old 11-23-2009, 02:07 PM   #71
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

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Huh? I don't know if you're talking to me but who brought up the batman movies or Superman 3/4?
No I wasn't talking to you about bringing those up. I was talking to you in regards to making that comment about mr. earle, I just found it funny. Someone made the comment about S3/4 a few pages back and I was just surprised nobody had anything to say about it considering superman 3 and 4 are some of the worst comic book movies ever. Some people just have blinders on when it comes to that series.

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Old 11-23-2009, 04:40 PM   #72
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S3 and 4 were better then B&R....Sorry its the truth.

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Old 11-23-2009, 04:53 PM   #73
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I'm going to try to bring this thread back on topic. This is just another dumb example of what I mean by doing the opposite of Donner but here goes:

In S:TM we see when Clark gets the job at the Daily Planet where he's introduced to Lois who's been working there for a while. (In fact, almost every incarnation of Superman has it the same way)

In a new origin they could show Clark get the job at the DP then cut to 6 months later where lois has just been hired by Perry.

This is just a simple example of what I mean by doing the opposite of S:TM. The other obvious ones are Pa being alive, and of course lex being a CEO, but again this is just another dumb idea off the top of my head.

Warner Brothers wants a different take on Superman, so I figure change most of the minor things from all the origins so you can keep all the important ones.

If someone told me they hated how there house looked and wanted it to look completely different, before I get a sledgehammer and start tearing down walls I would look at different types and colors of paint for the exterior of the house. That would be the most simple solution. If they still don't like it and want something MAJOR changed then I would start changing everything in sight.

That's what I'm saying to do with Superman. Before WB starts doing MAJOR changes to the origin so it's not like S:TM, just change everything in the most simple ways possible. Saying they should do movie based on Birthright, MOS, STAS, isn't enough. They've all been pitched already. Sadly, they don't want them.

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Old 11-23-2009, 06:55 PM   #74
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Keeping Pa Kent alive, more dynamic Clark and CEO Lex are changes that i'd like to see. I think that especially the last two make a big enough difference for the new franchise to be different enough from the Donner movies.
Besides, have they touched Brainiac, Darkseid, Mongul, Metallo, Parasite, or other villains? There's another refreshing factor the new franchise can have.

Btw, I wouldnt have Lois hired after Kent because i like how she is more experienced and acclaimed than him when he gets there. That gives her the advantage and we get all the humourous moments of her teasing him, making him do chores, etc.


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Old 11-23-2009, 10:54 PM   #75
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Default Re: New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

Ck to be totally honest we have no clue what wb/dc comics want to do with any future superman projects. Even if there wasnt any of the legal stuff that is holding up some things. They havent decided on direction they want to go with. So we dont really know in the end what could possibly come down the road. Sure at times one thing was said but then things changed over time.

Now for me i personally do want to see both kents alive while he is superman. A corp lex with political aspirations. Clark is the real identity and superman is just what he does. Then yea i perferably would like to take more post crisis stuff on the characters of superman. But not make the film be strickly just based on one take of the characters. I said before take the best elements from all eras of comics golden age-modern and make it into a rounded out character.

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