New Origin = Opposite of Donner's

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Webhead2006

Ck to be totally honest we have no clue what wb/dc comics want to do with any future superman projects. Even if there wasnt any of the legal stuff that is holding up some things. They havent decided on direction they want to go with. So we dont really know in the end what could possibly come down the road. Sure at times one thing was said but then things changed over time.

Now for me i personally do want to see both kents alive while he is superman. A corp lex with political aspirations. Clark is the real identity and superman is just what he does. Then yea i perferably would like to take more post crisis stuff on the characters of superman. But not make the film be strickly just based on one take of the characters. I said before take the best elements from all eras of comics golden age-modern and make it into a rounded out character.

Taking different elements from different versions of the character is definitley the the ideal situation (I think we can all agree on this). But the problem is if they didn't want a more Post-Crisis Superman movie in the 90's (which would have been the perfect time) what makes people think there going to want it almost 20 years later in 2015? I mean it's not like WB doesn't know what Post-Crisis is. They've made Lois and Clark, STAS, and even elements of Smallville which is still on the air.

And the most important thing is not only have there been countless pitches from movie and DC writers before and after SR, but Paul Levitz who ran DC for the last decade also worked very closely with the film division. For those who don't know Paul he is one of DC's most respected writers of all time. Since Mr. Levitz knows more about Superman than 99% of the population, don't you think in one of those board meetings about the next Superman movie he would have showed them Birthright and MOS? And then when those two were rejected he would have pitched the exact same thing you said. Take from those two and also the Pre-Crisis stories and we can make a great movie that the fans and the GP would love. If there is one guy I would want in a meeting with movie execs about Superman it's Paul Levitz.

Warner Brothers has heard a lot of pitches and unfortunately they always tend to choose the more drastic ones.

[Mr. Earle]

Because instead of rebooting the franchise with a more modern version of Superman they decided to continue the successful Donnerverse which had nostalgia going for it. Now that they saw that the Donnerverse can no longer work, they will try something else.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Because instead of rebooting the franchise with a more modern version of Superman they decided to continue the successful Donnerverse which had nostalgia going for it. Now that they saw that the Donnerverse can no longer work, they will try something else.

Bryan Singers version is the only one that had anything to do with S:TM and he got that job in 2004 (in the same week that MCG was fired). Everything before that had absolutely nothing to to with S:TM and neither have most of the pitches that have come after SR.

[Frodo]

Well I'm all for letting go of the Donnerverse and of Lex as the villan for part one. It's time to tell the Superman story in a fresh way. I still think the Batman Begins, Casino Royale and Star Trek models would work for a new Superman film.

They took these iconic characters and brought them back to their roots and away from the excesses that their francises had become. That's what Superman needs to do.

I think it could be done. It won't please everyone, but no film can .

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Well I'm all for letting go of the Donnerverse and of Lex as the villan for part one. It's time to tell the Superman story in a fresh way. I still think the Batman Begins, Casino Royale and Star Trek models would work for a new Superman film.

They took these iconic characters and brought them back to their roots and away from the excesses that their francises had become. That's what Superman needs to do.

I think it could be done. It won't please everyone, but no film can .

Well I agree with you for the most part, but the 3 franchises you named had it much easier. Batman never had an origin, neither did James Bond (and it didn't hurt that CR was the only Bond book that's never been adapted), and Star Trek never had an origin either (on top of that Gene Rodenberry supposedly always wanted to do an origin movie with Spock and Kirk at the Academy). That's why it's not as easy to do a new Superman origin like it was with the other franchises, but it doesn't mean it's impossible!

[solidsnake86]

Originally Posted by ck1777

Well I agree with you for the most part, but the 3 franchises you named had it much easier. Batman never had an origin, neither did James Bond (and it didn't hurt that CR was the only Bond book that's never been adapted), and Star Trek never had an origin either (on top of that Gene Rodenberry supposedly always wanted to do an origin movie with Spock and Kirk at the Academy). That's why it's not as easy to do a new Superman origin like it was with the other franchises, but it doesn't mean it's impossible!

Actually it is that easy, STM is over 30 years old, no one really cares about it anymore. Superman the animated series which people mention over and over itself is over 10 years old now. All of these different mediums that people keep on saying have shown the origin have a relatively small audience.

They just have to do a new origin and quit thinking about how hard it is because it really isnt. I could understand if superman the movie had all the elements with crappy special effects but the reality of the matter is they screwed up a lot of things (of no fault to itself). A lot has been established in comics that people would like to see in a new origin story.

[Mr. Earle]

Solidsnake i'd like to add that STAS hasnt had the audience that a movie would have. It was mostly watched by kids and comic book nerds. So its not like the general audience really saw it.
On the other hand we do have smallville so...
But as i keep saying, they could do the origin exactly the same, but keep it interesting by giving it a theme (like "fear" in Begins) and focusing more on Clark's psych and how he made all these decisions. In S:TM he just goes to the N.Pole, he throws the crystal and after his training he becomes a journalist at the top newspaper in the country. Well i am sorry, how did he know what to do with the crystal, how and why did he become a journalist, how did he discover his powers (though S:Returns had that and it was nice although very short), what problems did it cause him in his everyday life (for example in Smallville he wanted to play football really badly but he couldnt because he would hurt the other players), how did his parents make him the man he is, what morals and values did they give him, etc.

I am not asking for every little detail to be explained, but all i am saying is that there is a lot of juice there that hasnt been explored. And what really needs to be adressed this time is the importance of his parents on his morals and values.

[solidsnake86]

Listen I really liked STAS as a kid. I just hate when people use that as an example of the origin being done to death. As you said, it was watched by nerds and kids, so its annoying when people think that equates to everyone having seen it, its almost as obsurd as smallville reaching out to everyone. If you were to go by ratings alone lois and clark and the adventures of superman probably had the biggest among those three series to begin with. I'm really liking the way johns is handling certain aspects in his secret origins, his first issue would be a great way to deal with smallville quickly while establishing his character. I would leave out the legion part of it though. The 3rd issue comes out tomorrow and its about clarks first time at the daily planet.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by solidsnake86

Actually it is that easy, STM is over 30 years old, no one really cares about it anymore. Superman the animated series which people mention over and over itself is over 10 years old now. All of these different mediums that people keep on saying have shown the origin have a relatively small audience.

They just have to do a new origin and quit thinking about how hard it is because it really isnt. I could understand if superman the movie had all the elements with crappy special effects but the reality of the matter is they screwed up a lot of things (of no fault to itself). A lot has been established in comics that people would like to see in a new origin story.

It's not about who's seen the origin in S:TM or STAS. It's about money. We can all come up with a great origin or they could hire some writer who could write the greatest Superman origin ever, but that doesn't mean Warner Brothers is going to invest 200 million dollars on it. There not going to spend a fortune on something with a couple of differences to STAS or S:TM or any other version. It's all been pitched already.

Also, I'm loving Secret Origin right because I think it's a great mixture of Pre/Post Crisis Superman. Johns whole run on Action Comics has probably been the best run on Superman since Byrne in the 80's. That being said Johns pitched to the WB in the 90's with Donner (they chose to go with Burton/Cage instead), and he pitched after SR also, and they chose not to go with his take. Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, and Marv Wolfman are working for the WB film division right now. Hell, I wouldn't doubt it if Johns pitched Secret Origin to the WB before he did to Didio! The fact is, if they want his take on Superman (origin or not) they'll do it. But all signs point to no right now.

Again, Warner Brothers knows all about Birthright, MOS, and especially Secret Origin. If they want to invest time and money into it they will! If not they'll choose something else. Sadly, history has shown that they always tend to be attracted to the ....else.

[Mr. Earle]

Really? Are those writers really working on WB's movie division? That's great news. If they take only the good stuff from each writer, the result would be awesome. For example Morrison is one of the smartest writers out there, but he has to cut down on those impossible Silver Age plots, John has to limit his angsty teen ideas, etc. Do that and you'll have a solid team. I mean it.

Btw, ck117, i hope you enjoy John's angsty crap in secret origins. I hear Superman got glasses from indestructable crystals from his ship because he shot lasers every time he got horny.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Btw, ck117, i hope you enjoy John's angsty crap in secret origins. I hear Superman got glasses from indestructable crystals from his ship because he shot lasers every time he got horny.

Man, you always have to insult Johns. Before you go cursing the day he was born, why don't you go to wikipedia and do a little research. He just combined the Pre-Crisis origin of the glasses with the heat vision origin of Smallville. He's trying to make a Superman origin that has a little of EVERYTHING that has come before it.

I got a question for you Earle. Since you hate Pre-Crisis Superman, Superboy, Smallville, The Legion, Post Infinite Crisis etc. besides STAS and Post Crisis is there anything you do like?

I'm not saying you're not a fan but if thats the only version of Superman you like, are you sure Superman's for you? With all the problems I have with post/pre Crisis and the fact that I've hated the last 5 seasons of Smallville, I can still see a lot of great things that every version has brought to the mythos.

[Frodo]

Imo , Adapting Superman the way Batman , James Bond and Trek did is not a challenge ,if you've got a good writers and storytellers and a director with a good vision. They may not be present now , but I don't doubt there's someone out there that could make an amazing Superman film.

[Fresh Prince]

I say for the next films go the Fleicher route....Movies take place in the 1940s and everything be Fleicher like.

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by ck1777

Man, you always have to insult Johns. Before you go cursing the day he was born, why don't you go to wikipedia and do a little research. He just combined the Pre-Crisis origin of the glasses with the heat vision origin of Smallville. He's trying to make a Superman origin that has a little of EVERYTHING that has come before it.

I got a question for you Earle. Since you hate Pre-Crisis Superman, Superboy, Smallville, The Legion, Post Infinite Crisis etc. besides STAS and Post Crisis is there anything you do like?

I'm not saying you're not a fan but if thats the only version of Superman you like, are you sure Superman's for you? With all the problems I have with post/pre Crisis and the fact that I've hated the last 5 seasons of Smallville, I can still see a lot of great things that every version has brought to the mythos.

I just dont like Pre Crisis Superman. And Smallville. Smallville is just plain crap.

But the stupid idea to incorporate the glasses because Clark is horny is just lame and has nothing to do with pre or post crisis superman. It only has to do with Johns trying to pull a Nolan and explain the glasses but with a stupid rationalisation.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

I just dont like Pre Crisis Superman. And Smallville. Smallville is just plain crap.

But the stupid idea to incorporate the glasses because Clark is horny is just lame and has nothing to do with pre or post crisis superman. It only has to do with Johns trying to pull a Nolan and explain the glasses but with a stupid rationalisation.

Johns didn't create that take on the heat vision, Smallville created it! And the whole point of Secret Origin is to take a little bit from EVERY VERSION OF SUPERMAN! That means pre/post crisis, movies, tv shows etc.

I'm not saying you're not a fan, but if you only like Post Crisis that's only 17 years out of 70 years of stories.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Imo , Adapting Superman the way Batman , James Bond and Trek did is not a challenge ,if you've got a good writers and storytellers and a director with a good vision. They may not be present now , but I don't doubt there's someone out there that could make an amazing Superman film.

Believe me, it's not that hard to write/make a good Superman. The backstage politics are the hard part. At the end of the day WB is paying the bill, so they make the choices.

[Mr. Earle]

Originally Posted by ck1777

Johns didn't create that take on the heat vision, Smallville created it! And the whole point of Secret Origin is to take a little bit from EVERY VERSION OF SUPERMAN! That means pre/post crisis, movies, tv shows etc.

Did Clark really shoot lasers when he got the hots in smallville? If i remember correctly he only shot lasers uncontrollably when Jor-El was affecting him or something. You know, like he burned that symbol on his barn fence. I dont remember Clark wearing glasses in Smallville anyway...

I'm not saying you're not a fan, but if you only like Post Crisis that's only 17 years out of 70 years of stories.

I generally like Superman a lot. He is in my top 3 superheroes. But i could never stomach how sad and pathetic pre-crisis Clark was. And if i remember correctly Superman was insanely powerful as well back then.
So yeah, while i liked Superman, but what made me love him was Lois and Clark, STAS and the post crisis comics with his more modern version.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by Mr. Earle

Did Clark really shoot lasers when he got the hots in smallville? If i remember correctly he only shot lasers uncontrollably when Jor-El was affecting him or something. You know, like he burned that symbol on his barn fence. I dont remember Clark wearing glasses in Smallville anyway...
I generally like Superman a lot. He is in my top 3 superheroes. But i could never stomach how sad and pathetic pre-crisis Clark was. And if i remember correctly Superman was insanely powerful as well back then.
So yeah, while i liked Superman, but what made me love him was Lois and Clark, STAS and the post crisis comics with his more modern version.

In Pre-crisis Clark's glasses controlled his x-ray/heat vision. In the second season of Smallville, Clark first discovers his heat vision when he gets horny. Smallville didn't have the glasses, Johns just combined them like he's doing with everything else.

It's cool if you only like post crisis, but it's pretty dumb to hate and insult everything that's not post crisis because like I said it's only 17 years out of 70!

[Mr. Earle]

I only insulted the part where he shoots lasers when he is horny.

[Webhead2006]

well for smallville and the secret orgins deal i would take it since we know he has a mental and phsyical connection to his powers things trigger and that caues x power to work and all that.

Still for more personally i do want them to take elements that made superman great in all eras, the whole corp/political lex, and make clark the real person. This is what i really want to see done.

But the main issue in the past and present is wb just doesnt know what they want to do. It does really suck that superman seems to be so darn hard for them. When there is plently of good ideas and writers out there who could combine the best traits and get us a film fans of the characters will like and make it open to general audiences like casino royale did for bond or jj did with the new trek film for trek. Then also presently the whole legal stuff is another hiccup in the dam process.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by ck1777

Believe me, it's not that hard to write/make a good Superman. The backstage politics are the hard part. At the end of the day WB is paying the bill, so they make the choices.

That's true , plus there's alot of copyright issues that need to be resolved before any Superman film is off the ground.

Along with those things , the public has to hunger for another Superman film.

[Webhead2006]

totally the legal stuff are probably the main factor in stuff not moving. Personally to me i would think they studio would want that all resovlved so they can use all elements to the character. So any reboot would have the option to do everything and all that. Then all we need once the legal stuff is settled is a director/writers that wow the dam studio so they can pick one direction over another.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by ck1777

Right. So what you're saying is you want the MODERN version of Superman that's based on the 80's and 90's version of Superman. If you're talking about POST-CRISIS Superman, you should know that by 2000 it was already starting to change from Byrne's version that was created in 1986. With Birthright in 2003, Post-Crisis Superman was completely taken out of continuity.

And on the subject on S:TAS, Timm and his crew did a great job on that show and gave us not only one of the best takes on Superman but easily the best take on Post-Crisis Superman yet! And yet S:TAS wasn't anywhere near as popular as B:TAS in termes of ratings and critical acclaim.

You know, for all the punishment you seem to have taken in this thread, you're the only one who understands how somethings work.

I roll my eyes when fans here constantly talk about wanting a modern superman, and then bash donner....because modern superman IS basically a mix of donner and a little post crisis. What they actually want is an outdated version of Superman from the 80's and 90's.

And that's funny...because these same fans will rag on singer for wanting donners superman.

Having STAS/Byrne superman is just as wrong for a film as having Donner Superman. They've both been done, and i dont give a damn if STAS was only a cartoon.

[Mr. Earle]

Oh come on, maybe Clark isnt as dynamic as he used to be in the 90ies, he still isnt like Donner's.

[ck1777]

Originally Posted by The Batman

You know, for all the punishment you seem to have taken in this thread, you're the only one who understands how somethings work.

I roll my eyes when fans here constantly talk about wanting a modern superman, and then bash donner....because modern superman IS basically a mix of donner and a little post crisis. What they actually want is an outdated version of Superman from the 80's and 90's.

And that's funny...because these same fans will rag on singer for wanting donners superman.

Having STAS/Byrne superman is just as wrong for a film as having Donner Superman. They've both been done, and i dont give a damn if STAS was only a cartoon.

Yeah, the truth is Byrne's Superman is very dated. It's not a coincidence that Michael Douglas in Wall Street was one of the most important villains of the 80's.

That being said it doesn't mean Billionaire Lex doesn't work today. In fact if we do get a reboot, I'm pretty positive he'll be closer to Post-Crisis than Pre-Crisis.

But people need to realize that this isn't anything new to the WB. They KNOW WHAT POST CRISIS SUPERMAN IS! Obviously the concept isn't different enough for them. They won't spend $200 million dollars for a Post-Crisis movie, and yet they've made Lois and Clark, and Smallville (which has a lot of Post-Crisis elements) because they're cheap tv shows. A film is a much much bigger gamble.

Also, they didn't greenlight SR because of the Donner influences. They greenlit it for all the things that people hated about it (colors, kid, depressing, etc.). They never showed any interest in continuing S:TM until Bryan Singer came along. Singer basically told them how much he loved S:TM, at the same time he pitched them what THEY WANTED TO HEAR (colors, kid, depressing, etc.).

So to sum up:

1)The WB knows about Post-Crisis Superman
2)Marv Wolfman (co-creator of CEO LEX) is working with the film division.
3)Geoff Johns (who's writing CEO LEX in SO) works with the film division.
4)If they want a Post-Crisis Superman movie they'll make it!
5)History has shown that WB doesn't see enough difference between PRE/POST CRISIS
6)WB always tends to be attracted to drastic changes to Superman