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Old 03-02-2011, 07:19 PM   #126
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Default Re: 1938 Superman. The One To Adapt?

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So, essentially Superman is the Super "Obeyer" Man, who doesn't care who person has a right, only what the law dictates. It's like saying if he was raised by the Taliban, he shouldn't break the laws they have come up with, because he simply doesn't break them. Meanwhile many women would get beaten the s** out of them. Um, that doesn't seem very logic to me. And don't tell me that Americas laws are another thing than the Taliban ones. In both worlds laws do not treat equal people. And that's a fact.
Who decides what's right? Right and wrong are extremely subjective which is why we as a collective created a set of laws. Superman has chosen to obey the laws of the United States. if he lived in another culture it would be the same. Whether or not you feel the law, (and why were discussing this i have no idea)is frankly immaterial. it's your personal opinion, it has no bearing on how the character has bee written or is perceived.

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Old 03-02-2011, 07:24 PM   #127
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The morals of the average person haven't changed drastically in America since the 30s, with the exception of less racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia. Which is a good thing.

You say people today, especially young people, are disrespectful, but on any given day I see people going about their business, saying their pleases and thankyous, and trying to not encroach on the boundaries of others. For the average person, I think they're biggest crime is being too insular and emotionally distant towards others out of fear of encroaching on boundaries, stemming either from their morals or their desire not to look foolish. Obviously, there are people who overstep coundaries and treat people poorly, but from what I see they're hardly in the majority. The vast majority of people are simply cold and self involved, their sins are of ommision and inaction, not of anything they do.

And these days, respect for a woman's sexual boundaries is more common and accepted. Respect for the rights and oppinions of other races and nationalities is more common and expected. Respect for new and different ideas about how the world works and how it should be done is more common and expected. It's far from 100%. There are still rapists and racists and close minded, condascending people, but it's not as common and certainly not as celibrated as it was in the 1930s. I think, ethically, the western world is in a better place than it was 80 years ago.
This is true but I wasnt talking about that as much as I was talking about needing a {HERO}
I see disrespect for older people everyday from young people, but Im just a coach not a class room teacher.
Yes there are laws to protect women, gays and almost everything else. How would things be today if there wasnt?
I didnt mean to start a riff.
but oh well...

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Old 03-02-2011, 07:25 PM   #128
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You should post the part where he admits he didn't read Batman comics for the movie, not the ones where he says he had troubles reading comics as a kid. This is no proof.
Anybody who knows me knows I would never read a comic book. And I certainly would never read anything written by Kevin Smith.
-Tim Burton

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Old 03-02-2011, 07:33 PM   #129
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Anybody who knows me knows I would never read a comic book. And I certainly would never read anything written by Kevin Smith.
-Tim Burton

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Burton took a copy of "The Killing Joke" to show people what he wanted with his take of Batman. He had read it before Batman started filming. Your quote was Burton lashing out Smith because Smith accused him of stealing the ending for Planet of the Apes, from one of Kevin Smith's graphic novels. He was being facetious.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #130
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Default Re: 1938 Superman. The One To Adapt?

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Superman has chosen to obey the laws of the United States. if he lived in another culture it would be the same. Whether or not you feel the law, (and why were discussing this i have no idea)is frankly immaterial. it's your personal opinion, it has no bearing on how the character has bee written or is perceived.
While he does follow the laws of America, I think that Superman upholds it's core values more than anything. If America suddenly reverted back to the laws of the Pre-Civil Rights era, I don't think Superman would stand behind segregation laws all of a sudden (think Captain America in Civil War). Now of course, the idea core values can be twisted in a variety of ways as can be seen in our current political discourse but I still feel that, as a whole, America has a general consensus on what is right and what is wrong with or without laws.

I also think that this topic has a huge bearing on how Superman has been written and perceived. This idea of blindly following of laws is where you get the "Big Blue Boy Scout" and him becoming an instrument of the government as in The Dark Knight Returns -- which always bothers me.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:02 PM   #131
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Who decides what's right? Right and wrong are extremely subjective which is why we as a collective created a set of laws. Superman has chosen to obey the laws of the United States. if he lived in another culture it would be the same. Whether or not you feel the law, (and why were discussing this i have no idea)is frankly immaterial. it's your personal opinion, it has no bearing on how the character has bee written or is perceived.
But why is the supposed democratically elected authority better in handling the law system than Superman? Because we elected them? Please, at least he is truly incorruptible and puts his fellow humans above his personal interests. So to him right and wrong are not at all subjective, unlike any politician or judge. Sorry but i don't like my Superman not having a judging personality or social awareness of the society he lives in only because it happened to grow up in it.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:03 PM   #132
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While he does follow the laws of America, I think that Superman upholds it's core values more than anything. If America suddenly reverted back to the laws of the Pre-Civil Rights era, I don't think Superman would stand behind segregation laws all of a sudden (think Captain America in Civil War). Now of course, the idea core values can be twisted in a variety of ways as can be seen in our current political discourse but I still feel that, as a whole, America has a general consensus on what is right and what is wrong with or without laws.

I also think that this topic has a huge bearing on how Superman has been written and perceived. This idea of blindly following of laws is where you get the "Big Blue Boy Scout" and him becoming an instrument of the government as in The Dark Knight Returns -- which always bothers me.
Well put.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:41 PM   #133
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Burton took a copy of "The Killing Joke" to show people what he wanted with his take of Batman. He had read it before Batman started filming. Your quote was Burton lashing out Smith because Smith accused him of stealing the ending for Planet of the Apes, from one of Kevin Smith's graphic novels. He was being facetious.
I've already provided two interviews with Burton from that time that contradicts that claim.

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Old 03-02-2011, 08:45 PM   #134
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But why is the supposed democratically elected authority better in handling the law system than Superman? Because we elected them? Please, at least he is truly incorruptible and puts his fellow humans above his personal interests. So to him right and wrong are not at all subjective, unlike any politician or judge. Sorry but i don't like my Superman not having a judging personality or social awareness of the society he lives in only because it happened to grow up in it.
What gives Superman the right to act as judge and jury? That's not Superman's goal. his goal has always come down to one statement.
"I'm here to help"
I'm very socially aware and politically active, but it doesn't give me, you or Superman the right to ignore or skirt the law just because it's inconvenient. the reason Superman can operate the way he does in Metropolis is because he's trusted. Not just by the people but by the city government. He works with the police, he's given the key to the city because the Mayor, the commissioner and the police know that he's going to try to follow the letter of the law so that cases don't get overturned. They wouldn't do that if he was picking and choosing what laws to obey.

He's also a Metallica fan his favorite album? "And Justice for All"

No I didn't make that up, it's in a Joe Kelly Superman story.

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Old 03-02-2011, 09:05 PM   #135
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Default Re: 1938 Superman. The One To Adapt?

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What gives Superman the right to act as judge and jury? That's not Superman's goal. his goal has always come down to one statement.
"I'm here to help"
I'm very socially aware and politically active, but it doesn't give me, you or Superman the right to ignore or skirt the law just because it's inconvenient. the reason Superman can operate the way he does in Metropolis is because he's trusted. Not just by the people but by the city government. He works with the police, he's given the key to the city because the Mayor, the commissioner and the police know that he's going to try to follow the letter of the law so that cases don't get overturned. They wouldn't do that if he was picking and choosing what laws to obey.

He's also a Metallica fan his favorite album? "And Justice for All"

No I didn't make that up, it's in a Joe Kelly Superman story.
Ha ha..I didn't know that.

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Old 03-02-2011, 09:05 PM   #136
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Anybody who knows me knows I would never read a comic book. And I certainly would never read anything written by Kevin Smith.
-Tim Burton

http://www.whosdatedwho.com/tpx_2338/tim-burton/quotes
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I don't know I've only heard this quote directly from Kevin Smith's mouth. You can find the video on youtube.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346952/quotes
http://www.allsubs.org/search-movie-...erry+Go+Large/

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Burton took a copy of "The Killing Joke" to show people what he wanted with his take of Batman. He had read it before Batman started filming. Your quote was Burton lashing out Smith because Smith accused him of stealing the ending for Planet of the Apes, from one of Kevin Smith's graphic novels. He was being facetious.
Absolutely. You can tell he's talking about in general, not sopecifically for the movie.

As you say, he was being harsh to Kevin Smith after Smith became bitter because Burton didn't want to work with him and accused Burton of plagiarism. We just saw the Burton quote admitting he read The Killing Joke, which contradicts the statement of not having read "one single comic book."


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I've already provided two interviews with Burton from that time that contradicts that claim.
He never said he didn't read Batman comics for the movies. He just said that he's not a comics fan.


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Old 03-02-2011, 10:52 PM   #137
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Did they ever have a panel in the comics of Superman headbanging?

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Old 03-03-2011, 06:51 AM   #138
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This is true but I wasnt talking about that as much as I was talking about needing a {HERO}
I see disrespect for older people everyday from young people, but Im just a coach not a class room teacher.
Yes there are laws to protect women, gays and almost everything else. How would things be today if there wasnt?
I didnt mean to start a riff.
but oh well...
1: Is young people showing disrespect towards older people such a big deal that we need a hero? Is that really a sign of the downfall of western civilization, because to me it just seems like young people being snarky.

2: I see disrespect for young people from older people everyday aswell. Maybe many young folks aren't showing respect for their elders because they're not getting any and their lack of respect is instiutionalized.

3: It's not just laws. The attitudes towards those things are different.

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But why is the supposed democratically elected authority better in handling the law system than Superman? Because we elected them? Please, at least he is truly incorruptible and puts his fellow humans above his personal interests. So to him right and wrong are not at all subjective, unlike any politician or judge. Sorry but i don't like my Superman not having a judging personality or social awareness of the society he lives in only because it happened to grow up in it.
There's nothing wrong with Superman being socially aware, but the second he starts using his powers to enforce his views of justice, especially if his views on right and wrong are not at all subjective (which I think is an ethically bad thing, he starts overstepping his boundaries. The problems of this owrld are not simple enough to simply enforce justice upon it, and when you do that you lean dangerously close to facism. It makes sense for a young, inxperienced Superman to do that because, well, he's young and inexperienced. He hasn't figured this whole "superhero" think out yet. But an established Superman has to know that subtlety, patience, and working with the system as much as you work against it gets the best results. Because the only think forcing justice upon America will result in is either Superman: Public enemy # 1 or Superman: Supreme dictator.

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Old 03-03-2011, 08:46 AM   #139
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If America suddenly reverted back to the laws of the Pre-Civil Rights era, I don't think Superman would stand behind segregation laws all of a sudden (think Captain America in Civil War).
Great Scott, that's a mighty big IF.

What you're all ignoring is Clark Kent. If a law were deemed unjust, it would be Clark who would champion the repeal of said law. "The American Way" is a way of change without the need to resort to violent action. There are lawful ways to fight injustice. Superman would not break the law, even when he doubts the law, however as Clark he would use the power of the pen to defeat unjust laws.

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Old 03-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #140
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All I know is that if we see the same old caricature that we've seen since post crisis, this movie will have definetely failed in one area, and all the action and snyder special effects wont be able to change that.
"Fail comics." Because Superman is a totally different person post-Crisis than he was pre-Crisis. That's why all other superheroes still look upon him with awe and he is considered the greatest hero in the world. Because he's a caricature that failed.

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Old 03-03-2011, 02:58 PM   #141
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I think the idesa that the Post Crisis Superman is somehow a "charicature" or the "real" Superman is somewhat absurd. The quality of Superman's writing Post Crisis has been hit or miss, there's no denying that, and they have tried different approaches to the character, some of which worked and some of which didn't, but at the end of the day he is the same guy, and there are some Post-Crisis Superman stories that are absolutely brilliant.

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Old 03-03-2011, 03:39 PM   #142
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They should take the best elements from '38 Superman,Waid's Birthright,Byrne's MOS and Geoff John's Brainiac IMO

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Old 03-03-2011, 04:10 PM   #143
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Im all for Superman defending the opressed but **** HIM being cocky, using his powers to put fear into people, etc. THAT JUST IS NOT SUPERMAN TO ME and THANK HEAVENS the character evolved beyond that. IMO, Superman should show that fighting or war is wrong and not put fire into it. He should fight when theres no other way. Thats not being a boy scout or a pansy but using his powers responsibly. Action Comics 775 is great exemple of that, imo.


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Old 03-03-2011, 04:16 PM   #144
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I hate this thread. We know we want a modern Superman film. End of story.

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Old 03-03-2011, 04:23 PM   #145
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Im all for Superman defending the opressed but **** HIM being cocky, using his powers to put fear into people, etc. THAT JUST IS NOT SUPERMAN TO ME and THANK HEAVENS the character evolved beyond that. IMO, Superman should show that fighting or war is wrong and not put fire into it. He should fight when theres no other way. Thats not being a boy scout or a pansy but using his powers responsibly. Action Comics 775 is great exemple of that, imo.



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Old 03-03-2011, 04:39 PM   #146
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I think this scene is so UN-SUPERMAN but that's just me. He should just arrest the guy and done. No need to put fear into people. In fact, he should be the one fighting that.

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Old 03-03-2011, 06:04 PM   #147
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I hate this thread. I know I want a modern Superman film (Because I should only speak for myself). End of story.
fixed

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Old 03-03-2011, 06:09 PM   #148
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Double post

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Old 03-03-2011, 06:12 PM   #149
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"Fail comics." Because Superman is a totally different person post-Crisis than he was pre-Crisis. That's why all other superheroes still look upon him with awe and he is considered the greatest hero in the world. Because he's a caricature that failed.
Yup.

I'm sorry...I should've put "IMO" to save myself from your lame, ineffective sarcasm.

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Old 03-03-2011, 06:32 PM   #150
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Great Scott, that's a mighty big IF.

What you're all ignoring is Clark Kent. If a law were deemed unjust, it would be Clark who would champion the repeal of said law. "The American Way" is a way of change without the need to resort to violent action. There are lawful ways to fight injustice. Superman would not break the law, even when he doubts the law, however as Clark he would use the power of the pen to defeat unjust laws.
That particular line there bothers me. Almost every major change in American society has necessitated violence to some degree, or at least the threat of violence. Civil Rights didn't pass without those against it doing violence, nor did it pass simply because people willingly got their asses kicked. It passed because it was right, and ultimately because people were more than willing to stand up for their rights and do what had to be done. Revolution was a real possibility in those days. Black or white, the people on the side of justice were eventually ready and willing to take to the streets and fight the oppressor.

It was violence that overthrew slavery. John Brown made the first strike at Harper's Ferry, and was executed under Lincoln's government, but he was later vindicated by the fact of the Civil War. A civil war was necessary to end slavery.

The Revolutionary War.

The American Way is war and violence. The idea that it's change without violent action is a nice sentiment, but that's far from the truth.

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