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Old 03-18-2010, 04:16 PM   #251
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

I agree with Chris' take on Batman's costume vs. Cap's. Those wings aren't that big, and the ears on Batman's costume serve a similar purpose to Cap's wings. Cap's wings are to resemble an eagle's wings, thus showing that he's a symbol of the American people. Batman's ears are to resemble a bat, which is supposed to strike fear in criminal's hearts. There are no practical purposes for either character. The only difference is that Batman is more popular, and he has a large base very defensive and hypocritical fanboys. That's why no one complains about Batman's ears. Hell if you really want to get down to it, Batman is far more unrealistic than Captain America. Is it really that far fetched that the U.S. government has tried to create a super soldier? Maybe they were successful once, and there you have Captain America. How believable is a guy that has access to endless resources has the desire to spend most of his life in obscurity learning how to fight criminals? How realistic is it that he was the one that happened to have his parents killed instead of living out his life as a normal rich kid? How is it that he just so happens to have a big ass cave that no one knows about under his house? Batman is one of my favorite characters, but if you're going to call out other characters for realism, then he should be one of the first people that is brought up in a conversation.

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Old 03-18-2010, 04:57 PM   #252
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

All of those things are completely possible. Just statistically unlikely. Something being statistically unlikely doesn't make it unrealistic.

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Old 03-18-2010, 05:10 PM   #253
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

There are too many coincidences happen with Batman's story to see it as realistic. I get what you're saying when you say it's statistically unlikely, but the stars would have to align for something crazy like Bats to happen. Even if they did, then you have to realize how long it would be until he gets killed. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's simple to see how one mistake by Batman would lead to him getting his head blown off. No one could be that damn good, and that's where I detach reality from fiction. If I didn't do that, then I wouldn't enjoy Batman at all.

That's what we as comics fans who worry about what the general audience thinks. They're not rocket scientists going to carefully examine the whys and hows of a movie. They just want to see a good story, and that's all that matters. If a guy is on the battlefield wearing a bright blue suit with wings on his head, they don't care as long as it makes some kind of sense. They've already accepted that this guy was just given "super powers" by the government, so I highly doubt that they'll be pondering why he has wings on his head.

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Old 03-18-2010, 05:38 PM   #254
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

Again, the problem with that is, that's really not how speculative fiction works. Characters still have to behave in a plausible manner, and things not immediately explained by the basic premise still have to be explained. Well, I mean, technically they don't, but if you're trying to set a serious and dramatic tone, then they do.


As for Batman... I don't think it's especially unrealistic. I don't think the stars would have to align like crazy. The only thing that's really a huge coincidence is the Batcave. Everything else stems from "rich person deciding to become a crime fighter..." which wouldn't take all that much.

As for how long before he got killed... you can make that argument, but it's also possible that he could do what he does and end up fine. Putting yourself in dangerous situations isn't an automatic death sentence. Especially because the most common dangerous situations he puts himself in are his nightly patrols. Not only is it statistically unlikely for him to actually come across many violent crimes while patrolling a city, on foot or by car, but it's not inconceivable that someone with the right skill and equipment could do so and survive. I don't think beating up muggers and burglars on an irregular basis when you have advanced combat training, the element of surprise, and a bunch of less than lethal weaponry is a "that damn good" type of scenario.

What I do think is unrealistic about Batman is the idea that one guy going on nightly patrols will, by itself, save a city from corruption. That's why I prefer Batman stories that focus on the detective angle.

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Old 03-18-2010, 05:48 PM   #255
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

But, like, Batman isn't the issue, really. The fact of the matter is, and I cannot stress this enough, I am not against Captain America's classic costume being in the movie. In fact, it's what I want more than anything. I also realize, however, that the idea of the United States Military putting their top agent in a field uniform that looks like that is hard to believe. The fact of the matter is, Captain America's costume looks really silly. To us, it's awe inspiring and mythic. But it's actually incredibly goofy looking. The reason it looks great to us is because of the history behind it, which the general audience doesn't go into the film knowing. So, instead of simply putting him in the costume and expecting us to believe that the military would want their super soldier looking like a doofy circus performer, that history and that mythic status needs to be built up in the movie, so when he finally does put the costume on, everyone in the audience will think it's as cool as we think it is.

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Old 03-18-2010, 06:01 PM   #256
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

The problem lies in that people assume a well-made comic accurate suit on film would automatically look silly, and that's all there is to it.

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Old 03-18-2010, 09:45 PM   #257
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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ok let me put it this way....do you see Robin happening in the the Nolanverse??? Catwoman??? or Mr Freeze????
Robin: Yeah, anyone of them. Dick Grayson's family was a group of Romichael (Roma Gypsies by way of the British Isles) circus acrobats, tightrope walkers, and trapeze artists that would work perfectly fine today in Cirque de Soleil as they would have for a Ringling Brothers act (it's not like they were car gag clowns or animal tamers). Tim Drake, Carrie Kelly, and Stephanie Brown were explicitly products of the '80s-early '90s, but aside from the proliferation of cell phones since their respective introductions, (they were even computer wiz kids, after alll) their origins would work perfectly in the Nolanverse. As for getting them as sidekicks, I can think of several scenerios where one of them could be the ones saving "master Bruce's" bacon. And if I can do it, I'm sure Nolan could too.

Ironically, it is gritty and grounded Jason Todd that would have had the most problems fitting in. With Batman's actions and inspirations helping to clean up the streets, along with modern car alarms, the idea of someone like Jason trying to boost the Tumbler's wheels starts to become a stretch. When you realise that they do it to resell the wheels and tires and not just for kicks, that shatters the suspension of disbelief altogether.

Catwoman: Yes. There is nothing supernatural about Selina Kyle. Whether she is a bored socialite/corproate executive/secratary turned cat burglar, or a street wise dominatrix turned whip wielding vigilante, she's no less plausible than Bruce Wayne as a premise. Just so long as they don't cast Halle Berry!

Mr. Freeze: Now he's pushing it. Still, Batman Begins featured the microwave weapon. If you use the origin from TAS, it should work. Unfortunately, Patrick Stewart is getting a little long in the tooth...

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Old 03-18-2010, 10:02 PM   #258
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

well its a moot point now as the next one is Nolan's last and I doubt Robin will show up

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Old 03-18-2010, 10:08 PM   #259
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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The problem lies in that people assume a well-made comic accurate suit on film would automatically look silly, and that's all there is to it.
I think Cap's costume does look silly, even in the comics. But the history behind it makes it awe inspiring to me.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:54 AM   #260
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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I agree with Chris' take on Batman's costume vs. Cap's. Those wings aren't that big, and the ears on Batman's costume serve a similar purpose to Cap's wings. Cap's wings are to resemble an eagle's wings, thus showing that he's a symbol of the American people. Batman's ears are to resemble a bat, which is supposed to strike fear in criminal's hearts. There are no practical purposes for either character. The only difference is that Batman is more popular, and he has a large base very defensive and hypocritical fanboys. That's why no one complains about Batman's ears. Hell if you really want to get down to it, Batman is far more unrealistic than Captain America. Is it really that far fetched that the U.S. government has tried to create a super soldier? Maybe they were successful once, and there you have Captain America. How believable is a guy that has access to endless resources has the desire to spend most of his life in obscurity learning how to fight criminals? How realistic is it that he was the one that happened to have his parents killed instead of living out his life as a normal rich kid? How is it that he just so happens to have a big ass cave that no one knows about under his house? Batman is one of my favorite characters, but if you're going to call out other characters for realism, then he should be one of the first people that is brought up in a conversation.
Come to think of it, didn't Catwoman do just what I said-grabbing him by the ears-in "Returns"?

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Old 03-19-2010, 08:39 AM   #261
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

Batman ears have a purpose: to be a part of an intimidating figure. To scare criminals. Not the ears by themselves of course, but as part of the entire outfit. They make Batman's head look like something that's not human, even like a devil and that's part of the traditional purpose of the suit.

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Old 03-19-2010, 10:04 AM   #262
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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Batman ears have a purpose: to be a part of an intimidating figure. To scare criminals. Not the ears by themselves of course, but as part of the entire outfit. They make Batman's head look like something that's not human, even like a devil and that's part of the traditional purpose of the suit.
.....bat....., but the purpose is the same, to instill fear, by association with a bat. That's the primary purpose of the whole costume, and should be the focus of any film's costume designer. Any other consideration, i.e. protection, antennae in the ears, etc. is secondary to that purpose. This is why TDK's suit fails miserably.

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Old 03-19-2010, 10:22 AM   #263
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

I never understood the showing us he is a ninja that can fade into shadows and then put him into an armored suit.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:07 PM   #264
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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I think Cap's costume does look silly, even in the comics. But the history behind it makes it awe inspiring to me.
There is a movie coming out about the Red Baron(for those who dont know he was the most sucessful flying ace in WW1)

There is a line when he paints his plane bright red. One of the other pilots mentions that he gives up the element of surprise. He tells them he doesnt want them to be surprised, he wants them to be afraid.

This is a very simple excuse to why they would dress Cap in his colors.Imagine the thoughts a soldier would be thinking if he knew he was fighting the embodiment of America or the Nazi's embodiment in the Red Skull. Psychological warfare has been around for a long time...going back to Samurai would wear demon masks to scare their enemies.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:27 PM   #265
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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There is a movie coming out about the Red Baron(for those who dont know he was the most sucessful flying ace in WW1)

There is a line when he paints his plane bright red. One of the other pilots mentions that he gives up the element of surprise. He tells them he doesnt want them to be surprised, he wants them to be afraid.

This is a very simple excuse to why they would dress Cap in his colors.Imagine the thoughts a soldier would be thinking if he knew he was fighting the embodiment of America or the Nazi's embodiment in the Red Skull. Psychological warfare has been around for a long time...going back to Samurai would wear demon masks to scare their enemies.


Yup.

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Old 03-19-2010, 02:47 PM   #266
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

The Red Baron is a good example. It probably would freak dudes out to see this brightly colored soldier moving at an inhuman pace on the battlefield.

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Old 03-19-2010, 03:12 PM   #267
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

Add to that, if his suit didn't look all that "practical"-didn't give the appearance of protection or military function, it might also convey that he had nothing to hide & nothing to fear, which would mess with their minds even more.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:16 PM   #268
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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There is a movie coming out about the Red Baron(for those who dont know he was the most sucessful flying ace in WW1)

There is a line when he paints his plane bright red. One of the other pilots mentions that he gives up the element of surprise. He tells them he doesnt want them to be surprised, he wants them to be afraid.

This is a very simple excuse to why they would dress Cap in his colors.Imagine the thoughts a soldier would be thinking if he knew he was fighting the embodiment of America or the Nazi's embodiment in the Red Skull. Psychological warfare has been around for a long time...going back to Samurai would wear demon masks to scare their enemies.
The problem is, Cap doesn't simply wear a military uniform that is the coors of the American flag. He wears a circus outfit. The only way an audience unfamiliar with the comics would take that seriously is if the symbolism and history behind that suit is built up in the story. Which would ultimately make the movie more layered and emphasize the thematic aspects of it, which would make it a better movie all around. I don't see why this is a bad thing. We get the suit, and the movie has a stronger thematic arc. Win/win.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:28 PM   #269
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

It's not if he's done up in a pale imitation of the suit, for the sake of "keeping it real".

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #270
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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I never understood the showing us he is a ninja that can fade into shadows and then put him into an armored suit.
Really? The movies all illustrate why both are important. Even the Burton films.

He's not going to play it smooth and dumb by always stealthily try to pick people off one by one on the chance that they can't hurt him or someone could sneak around and shoot at him from afar.

Batman is all about prep.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:55 PM   #271
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I never understood the showing us he is a ninja that can fade into shadows and then put him into an armored suit.
He's a ninja that likes to be seen, therefore he needs the protection.

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Old 03-19-2010, 07:04 PM   #272
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

It always makes me laugh on the Batman boards where people say "but he NEEDS to be armoured! What if he GETS SHOT?"

He won't get shot. Because he's a fictional character, and the writers decide whether the bullets hit him or not.

Obviously the suit needs to offer Batman some protection just to ground the character in reality a little bit. But some act like Christian Bale is actually going to go out and fight crime.

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Old 03-19-2010, 07:20 PM   #273
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Default Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

He can be protected-and even LOOK protected-without going to extremes. I thought the '89 suit-probably the most conservative design of all the films-looked very protective.

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Old 03-19-2010, 07:23 PM   #274
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He can be protected-and even LOOK protected-without going to extremes. I thought the '89 suit-probably the most conservative design of all the films-looked very protective.
All you need is a fabric that looks durable, the implication that he is wearing protective armour underneath and a design that conveys this while at the same time being faithful to Batman's traditional design.

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Old 03-19-2010, 07:43 PM   #275
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Re: Has Batman hurt the genre where costumes are concerned?

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It's not if he's done up in a pale imitation of the suit, for the sake of "keeping it real".
So, it would really be terrible if he was in a "pale imitation" of the suit for the early part of the movie and in the classic one for the rest?

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