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Old 04-01-2010, 10:54 PM   #1
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Default Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be explore

Sorry, I just realized, this isn't a spoiler, merely speculation.

1.) Yes I know some believe that Two Face is dead. Even if he is indeed dead, that doesn't mean that Nolan couldn't atleast delve into Two Face's back story more. The mob could get his old history of previous psychiatric problems revealed and use them as leverage to get all the people he convicted released.

Thus, Two Face's actions in the second movie would have had an actual consequence and his name would atleast be known throughout Gotham. It's sad that such a major Batman villian barely made an impact on anything at all and Gotham doesn't even know that he existed. It would also fill in the one big plot hole in The Dark Knight, in that Two Face wasn't really shown to have any mental issues in the past. Without such a history, Harvey Dent's sudden transition into a super villian that doesn't care about who he hurts just because one person died, doesn't make any sense. Normal people don't suddenly develop a split personality and go a killing spree just because a person died. Issues like that never just pop up in a person's 40s. Only people with previous history of schizophrenia at a younger age get multiple personalities and such later on.

But I honestly don't think he's dead. I've followed comic books enough to know that such a glossed over death is meaningless. They didn't show the body for a reason. The mob has several people in the police department. And the Mob had every reason to let people think he died and use him later to get all of his convictions thrown out. And a major villian like Two Face doesn't die after just killing 4 mobsters then falling off a short building (a fall that didn't even phase batman). Two Face is the second biggest and most notorious Batman villian. He deserves a little more than 20 minutes in one movie. He is not the kind of villain that should be killed off permanently within one movie, a movie where he isn’t even the feature villain. In addition, Two Face should be a notorious name throughout Gotham. The way The Dark Knight ended, Gotham didn’t even know that two face existed. Whether or not Two Face died is very purposefully ambiguous. He simply fell off a building, Batman didn't check his pulse. And he had a closed casket funeral. Given the corruption rampant through Gotham, and the interest that the Mob now has in getting Dent's convictions thrown out of court, it's quite possible that the Mob smuggled Two Face possibly in order to torture him or to use him to get the convictions thrown out.

2.) The psyche of Two face doesn’t make sense in The Dark Knight. A loved one dying is not enough to cause a normal person to become a villain. Only a person with a history of schizophrenia or other prexisting psychiatric problems would have the kind of sudden stark transition that Two Face had in The Dark Knight. In the comics, Two Face’s breakdown makes more sense. Two Face had a history of psychiatric issues before he became two face. The trauma simply reinforced preexisting pathos. This is realistic. A perfectly sane person doesn’t become insane suddenly. Tons of people lose loved ones. And the only ones that go on killing rampages or seek vengeance are those with preexisting issues. And psychiatric issues such as those are confidential, protected by physician patient confidentiality, even if the person enters law enforcement, the doctor has no obligation to break this confidentiality and the patient has no obligation to reveal them himself. Having Two Face reemerge in the third movie provides an opportunity to have this plot hole filled, and confirm that indeed, two face had psychiatric problems in the past. This could even lead to the release of all those he prosecuted, throwing Gotham into chaos and giving Batman the opportunity to earn his redemption.

3.) Each Batman movie has at least two villains, usually more. Batman Begins had three major villains. The Dark Knight likewise had three villains (Scarecrow made a return). Just because Two Face makes a return in Batman 3 doesn’t mean that he would be only villain. I would love to see him alongside Bane or possibly The Riddler.

4.) Aaron Eckhart is an excellent actor, was well cast and made an excellent Two Face. Unfortunately, he, like everyone else in the movie, was overshadowed by Heath Ledger’s excellent performance. It would be welcome to have the actor and character return for another film.

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Old 04-01-2010, 11:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

I want to make clear what I mean, that even if he is dead, that doesn't mean that his past psych problems couldn't be explored some more and used to get the mobsters he convicted released.

This serves multiple purposes...

1. It means Two Faces actions in the TDK have an actual lasting consequence. Plus the name Two Face would atleast be known in Gotham which is a pretty basic requirement for a villian as major as two face.

2. It clears Batman's name and gives him an opportunity to earn his redemption. They can't have Batman 3 end with the people of Gotham still thinking it was Batman who killed those people. Batman should be inspiring people by the end of the trilogy, not seen as a murderer.

3. IMO, most importantly, it plugs up the main plothole in TDK, the stark rapid rushed transition from Harvey Dent, sane and stable man, to Two Face psychopath that doesn't care about who he hurts. Such a transition only makes sense in people who already had preexisting psychiatric problems. Harvey Dent in the comic books did. The Harvey Dent in TDK did not.

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Old 04-08-2010, 05:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

first, Bats limps away after that fall,
second, Nolan has said hes dead, though if eckhart came back for flashbacks thatd be great.
third, Gotham didnt even know half his face was burned off, they has closed casket to keep that a secret, most burn victims, people rendered apart, crush victims, these are all closed coffin funerals

though the mob using the past of harvey as a possible plot point is a good idea

also, Harvey had alos lost basically everything else, uner the same situation, id have doen the same thing, under those EXACT situations

like a video i saw once adress
"how can harvey dent pull a complete one 180?"
"well they barbecued his face and he lost his lady"
everything was kinda comin down around Harv, and this two face didnt have MPD, he was jsut really angry

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Old 04-18-2010, 09:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Really? Because it felt complete to me. His story came to an end as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 05-04-2010, 02:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

We saw his body on the floor. We saw a funeral. That's good enough for me. It'd take a hell of a lot of contrivances to unwrite what we've seen. But to be honest, I feel like revisiting Two Face in the next film at all will just be a step backwards.

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Old 05-06-2010, 02:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

I don't think Nolan would go with this route plus Batman is on the run, I rather see his name been cleared. Two-Face is dead but though I would love to see Eckhart back.

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Old 05-15-2010, 10:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

His story was complete but I know what your saying. For such a prominent character in Batman's history to be killed off so quickly is dissapointing. You can almost compare it to Venom in the Spiderman franchise. At this point though I have complete faith in Nolan and I'm on board with whatever story decisions he makes

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Old 05-15-2010, 08:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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His story was complete but I know what your saying. For such a prominent character in Batman's history to be killed off so quickly is dissapointing. You can almost compare it to Venom in the Spiderman franchise. At this point though I have complete faith in Nolan and I'm on board with whatever story decisions he makes
No. Here the character was handled well and the death felt appropriate and serviced the story. The same cannot be said of Venom in Spider-Man 3. In fact it's not even so much that he was killed off, it's that he was handled exceptionally poorly. The death could have worked if it wasn't for all of that.

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Old 05-15-2010, 08:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Eddie Brock/Venom were throwaway characters in Spider-Man 3. Harvey Dent was a backbone to TDK, who's story culminated in him going on a revenge spree as Two Face.

The Venom/Two-Face comparison is ludicrous.

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Old 05-30-2010, 08:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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Eddie Brock/Venom were throwaway characters in Spider-Man 3. Harvey Dent was a backbone to TDK, who's story culminated in him going on a revenge spree as Two Face.
Yes, a key distinction to make. We didn't get much Two Face time, but Dent had plenty of integral and meaningful scenes.

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Old 07-05-2010, 04:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

I felt Harvey "Two-Face" Dent's storyline was complete by the end of The Dark Knight.

For one, he was meant to be the man Batman was without the mask, by sending the mobs to jail, and trying the best he can to bring order back to Gotham as much as Batman was doing the past year. He was meant to be the sole "White Knight" that turns into the "Dark Knight" by the movie's end because of the Joker; by ruining his life and by killing his future, aka Rachel Dawes. And because of that, Two-Face went out for revenge; he wasn't clearly a villain, as wikoogle calls him. Because he's not; he's someone going out strictly for revenge, and with that arc for him, he still wouldn't be a villain if he did survive at the end of TDK, and would also make his appearance in a second sequel unnecessary(or at least I think so. Another reason why I'm glad Goyer's original plan didn't pan out, just because I prefer Nolan's interpretation of Two-Face in TDK than what he would've been in a threequel, which would be a straight-up villain).

Nolan always wanted Two-Face as a killer vigilante aside from the vigilante that doesn't kill, who Batman is. And that's totally fine; it was a smart move if you ask me. Not every villain can be downright evil, so having Two-Face doing what a lot of people would do adds character in contrast to the character of Joker that killed just to kill.


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Old 07-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #12
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Hi Guys, new poster; I agree that Harvey’s story feels incomplete. Here are some loose ends that keep bugging me about the end of TDK and the fate of Harvey Dent.

• Ramirez lives and knows the truth that Dent went on a murderous rampage.

• Dent’s Funeral: Could be part of a cover-up with Gordon and his men saying that Dent died in the hospital explosion and his body was never found.

• “5 Dead, Two of them Cops” - The mystery of who these five actually are; only Weurtz, Maroni and Maroni’s driver were killed by Dent. (Or have I missed someone?)

• Finally, I presume in B3 that Batman will have his name cleared, thus revealing Dent as the true murderer. Doesn't that render Batman's decision to be the fall-guy Null & Void.

All of this leads me to believe that Harvey’s story isn’t finished and he might crop up again in B3 either alive or in flashback.

Feel free to add to the list if I’ve missed anything out.

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Old 07-08-2010, 04:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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• Ramirez lives and knows the truth that Dent went on a murderous rampage.
Seeing as how Ramirez is a bent Cop, I highly doubt she'll be saying anything.

Quote:
• Dent’s Funeral: Could be part of a cover-up with Gordon and his men saying that Dent died in the hospital explosion and his body was never found.
Interesting theory, but I doubt it. Gordon doesn't seem the type to hide a dead body like that.

Quote:
• “5 Dead, Two of them Cops” - The mystery of who these five actually are; only Weurtz, Maroni and Maroni’s driver were killed by Dent. (Or have I missed someone?)
When Gordon said 'Five dead, two of them Cops. You can't sweep that off', he means there was five dead people involved in Harvey's whole rampage, Dent included. He was saying they can't cover it up without revealing what Dent did.

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• Finally, I presume in B3 that Batman will have his name cleared, thus revealing Dent as the true murderer. Doesn't that render Batman's decision to be the fall-guy Null & Void.
What makes you think he'll be cleared in Batman 3? He was never on the good side of the law as it is. The official policy was always to arrest him ever since he plowed over all those Cop cars in Begins.

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Old 07-29-2010, 05:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

After Nolan gets out, if they choose a new director for Batman 4 then i would really like Two-face to return as a main enemy

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Old 08-08-2010, 09:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Harvey/Two-Face was the backbone of The Dark Knight. He doesn't need to be further explored, he's dead.

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Old 08-26-2010, 09:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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They didn't show the body for a reason.
You should see the movie again, they do, on the ground, dead.

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Old 01-23-2011, 06:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Why do people find it so damn difficult to accept that he was killed off in these films?

It's pretty damn obvious he is dead.

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Old 01-23-2011, 03:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Two-Face is my favorite Batman Villain and seeing him on TDK was a big surprise, I thought something could happen to him at the end that could set him as the main villain for the third.

That wasn't the case!!, i had a geekasm when they first showed his left side at the hospital.

Anyway xD, I don't think is a good idea to show him, either on flashbacks or a mysterious back-from-the-dead thing. That could ruin the awesomeness of the final scene. All you need is an excellent performance and a well written/directed scene to made a villain justice.

I do however feel bad for Aaron, he seems to have enjoyed the ride and was willing to keep going with it =/

As for Two-Face, he's one of Batmans mayor villains, we'll surely see him again on a movie at least one more before we die so no worries here xD

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Old 01-28-2011, 01:12 AM   #19
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

Two-Face=Dead.

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Old 02-02-2011, 02:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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Two-Face=Dead.
if only the same could be said about Venom

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Old 02-04-2011, 01:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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Eddie Brock/Venom were throwaway characters in Spider-Man 3. Harvey Dent was a backbone to TDK, who's story culminated in him going on a revenge spree as Two Face.

The Venom/Two-Face comparison is ludicrous.
I agree that Harvey received a much more expansive treatment then Eddie Brock did.

However, Two-Face really got the short end of the stick in TDK. Two-Face really wasn't utilized much at all, since in TDK Two-Face was essentially just a scarred Harvey Dent looking for revenge. Now, he did have some of the staples of the character, such as the obsession with fate, but it was unfortunately very under-developed given how much potential the character of Two-Face has.

Though, while I think the under-use of Two-Face was my biggest criticism of TDK (and keep in mind that's a criticism of it as a comic adaptation, not as a movie) I doubt Harvey will be in included in any way in the new film, in terms of learning more about his character or any of that.

It really is a shame, given how much potential Two-Face had, and how little Nolan utilized.

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Old 02-04-2011, 03:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

I have no doubt that the character will have ramifications in TDKR, but he's not coming back. Nolan said he's dead. Eckhart said he's dead. The script said he's dead. He's DEAD.

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Old 02-07-2011, 05:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

I thought that Nolan's interpretation of Harvey Dent/Two-Face was brilliant.

Most of the time I feel like Harvey Dent was created just so Two-Face can be born. This time it really felt like it was more Harvey's story and that being Two-Face was actually still Harvey.

He didn't change and become a villain, Two-Face's depiction instead stayed true the established character from the rest of the film. He just went off the deep end because he lost everything. He saw his entire world crumble. Betrayed by the police, Joker escaped with Lau, Rachel is dead.

The betrayal by the police I think was an even bigger blow than losing Rachel, in my opinion. He warned Gordon about the corrupt cops and it was their cooperation that allowed Rachel to be killed.

Taking Gordon's family hostage was his end game. Just the way he talked "There is no escape from this", it sounded like he planned on dying there.

It is a unique interpretation and I think it should be kept the way it is. Any adding would taint it.

I've said it before, I think this was the best interpretation of Two-Face I have ever seen. He wasn't some gimmicky two-obsessed villain, he wasn't just another villain for Batman to fight, he wasn't this public menace like The Joker.

My favorite scene in The Dark Knight is that final scene with Harvey holding Gordon's family hostage. It is very emotional and powerful, loved it more than any of the other Joker stuff in the movie. It took the movie to the next level for me.

Bringing Harvey back from the dead ruins that and I don't think it should happen.

Seriously, what do these people who want Two-Face back want out of the character? What do they think more of the character can be? If you make him the main villain, it could just translate into a Joker version 2.0 like Tommy Lee Jones was.

Do they want the Two-Face from BTAS? For him to be some sort of mob leader? For what? Why?

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Old 02-08-2011, 05:41 AM   #24
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

It will be funny when WB reboots the franchise again we know this will happen one day and they will do another Two-Face fans will love that take "omg best Two-Face ever"

haha

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Old 02-08-2011, 05:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: Nonspoiler - Two Face's story in The Dark Knight feels incomplete & should be exp

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The betrayal by the police I think was an even bigger blow than losing
I've said it before, I think this was the best interpretation of Two-Face I have ever seen. He wasn't some gimmicky two-obsessed villain, he wasn't just another villain for Batman to fight, he wasn't this public menace like The Joker.
The bolded portion is the biggest problem I have in regards to how Nolan killed off Two-Face. Two-Face, as a character has SO much more potential then just an angry Harvey, or as you say the gimmicky two-obsessed villain.

What makes Harvey Dent interesting is because he is the personification of one of humanity's biggest fears. The dual nature we all possess, and the possibility that we all have a very dark side to us. It's an age old theme, but a very interesting one, which is the reason why stories like Jekyll and Hyde have lasted for so long.

Harvey isn't a character with just a hokey "2" motif. He's a man who is literally obsessed with the dual nature of all things, the light and dark sides in everything and everyone. And Harvey wants to exploit that. He's also obsessed with fate, the inevitable and impartial judgment of chance.

Right there you have so many angles you could explore on film, and we only got a taste of the fate aspect, with the other being woefully unexplored. Not to mention, who wouldn't want to see Nolan handle a man with an advanced personality disorder? A realistic take on how a man with an extreme personality disorder like Harvey could have been amazing to see done on film.

But we won't see any of it. And again, as I've said before, looking at TDK as purely a film, it's brilliant. It was done very well. What happened to Harvey fit with the story, it reflected the theme, and it was executed nicely.

As a comic fan, I'll always be disappointed that Nolan sacrificed arguably the next most interesting psychological villain in the Bat-rogue gallery (after the Joker) after only giving him a handful of minutes on screen.

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