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Old 07-29-2006, 04:53 AM   #1
Nell2ThaIzzay
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Default What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

Disclaimer: This is not a complaint post. I enjoyed this movie very much. It took me awhile to be able to take to the new style (I.E.; not Singer's), but I've very much come to love the product we got. So no, this is not a complaint post, but in fact, the opposite, to show just how close this movie was, in my mind, to being the best. The motivation for this post: I understand that everyone has a difference of opinion, and that everyone is entitled to that. However, I feel that there are many people around here who are bashing the movie just for the sake of bashing it, because it's kinda the "thing" to do, after everything that AICN caused last year around this time. So without further ado, the things that would have made X-Men: The Last Stand the best of the trilogy:

01. Cyclops: Not to throw any blame around, but whoever's idea it was to get rid of Cyclops (be it Fox, and "revenge" for Marsden going to work with Singer on Superman Returns, be it Fox for wanting to showcase Wolverine, and the only way to do that was to have him replace Cyclops is what was Cyclops' story, or whether it was the writer's for emotional impact for Jean's condition), it was a bad idea, and cheapened the movie a bit. For us fans, it was also the biggest diversion from the source material in the entire franchise. And for casual viewers, well, one experience doesn't speak for the masses, but my friend who I saw the film with, who doesn't even care about the X-Men, stated "I didn't think I'd care (regarding Cyclops' death), but after seeing it played out, I felt it cheapened the story to kill him off and with him gone Wolverine could conveniently display his love for Jean and be her hero"... this is from someone who doesn't give a damn about the X-Men and doesn't know jack **** about the comic storylines, and even he understood that Cyclops should have been around. I've had a few other experiences from regular movie goers who thought getting rid of Cyclops made no sense. I think even with the other errors in the film, that will be further down on this list, if this was the only change to the movie, it would have helped to catapult it above even X2. I feel that drastic change from the source material is the major factor that holds this movie back from being the best of the franchise, because when I think about what was wrong with the film, the first thing I think of is how the Phoenix Saga was handled, and how the major problem with that was no Cyclops.

02. Pacing: The 2nd biggest problem I see with this movie is the pacing. I am a supporter of the line of thinking that says "this is a 3rd movie... you can't go in and expect everything to be explained for you, you have to understand that there are 2 movies beforehand that tell you who these characters are, and what events led up to the events of this movie", however, I think this film took that a bit too much for granted. I still do want to see SOME character development. And I do want to see events breathe a bit, and settle in. There were some good character moments; both opening flashbacks, the whole scene involving Iceman & Kitty Pryde after Xavier's funeral, the scene with Beast on Alcatraz when he first meets Leech, those are all some really good moments. But what I don't like is how one scene shows Beast, on Alcatraz in San Francisco meeting with Dr. Rao, and the VERY NEXT SCENE is back in New York, where Xavier is teaching a class, and then Storm wheels him into a room where... BEAST IS AT! There needed to be something in between there to show his journey. I don't care, something! It's just way too fast for Beast to be in New York in the very next scene AFTER he was in San Francisco.

Pacing would have also helped to establish a bit better that Beast was a former team member. Except for a "Henry, you're always welcome here", and a throw away "I can't believe this used to fit me" line, there was no reference really towards him being an old X-Men member. And if it weren't for the fact that I am an X-Men fan, know that Beast was part of the original 5, and knew from interviews and talking to the writers that they were establishing him as an older student / team member, I dunno if I really would have caught onto that.

Pacing would have also been able to develop a relationship between Storm and Jean Grey, a sense of trust that Magneto would build up with the rest of his Brotherhood / Morlocks, and show how Angel got to Alcatraz (a minute long scene of him down in the subbasement during Wolverine's speech to Iceman, saying his father was on Alcatraz, and he was coming along one way or another, and Storm giving him a uniform, would have been awesome).

Pacing would have developed the political aspect of the movie, giving it a bit more drama, making the situation seem that much more dire, and making the movie feel that much more epic.

Those are the top 2 areas that would have made this the best movie of the series. If those 2 were addressed, there would be no question this would be the best movie. But below, are a couple of the other minor gripes that I have with this movie.

03. Continuity: I don't mean with keeping from established story arcs and such... I feel that storyline wise, this movie did feel like a direct continuation of the storyline that was presented in X-Men and X2. No, it might not have been what Bryan Singer was setting up, but I don't feel that there is anything, storyline wise, that contradicts with X-Men or X2. What I mean by continuity is the details;

Nightcrawler, Cerebro, Wolverine flashbacks, Senator Kelly... all of those things were things that helped drive the series, and give it a bit of depth. I can deal with Cerebro, because that was all but destroyed in X2. But what about Senator Kelly? Instead of saying that Mystique has been impersonation Secretary Trask, why not talk about how she'd been imitating Senator Kelly, and how she was responsible for his death? I understand that Wolverine's past story arc was essentially concluded in X2, but he didn't get answers. He just stops looking? He said he'd "take my chances with them"... we see none of that. Although I do supposed this could go with Cerebro in the "doesn't apply to this movie" category. The biggest of all though, where's Nightcrawler? The first reaction I heard to this movie, the first time I saw it, and the credits rolled, the person next to me said "Where was Nightcrawler?!" Yea... Nightcrawler needed to be around.

04. Rogue: Her story arc in this film was absolutley PERFECT for her character....... until she actually TOOK the cure. The Rogue I know would totally contemplate the cure. She'd want to take it. She'd go to the facility to take it. But in the end, she'd back out. She'd go back to the mansion, and she'd stick with her family. True, I can understand her peril, and WHY she'd take the cure... but this is Rogue, X-Men, not a real life girl named Marie who kills people she touches... Rogue wouldn't take the cure. Rogue is part of the X-Men, not some girl who happens to go to a school for mutants.

05. Character Selection: I wanna see Gambit, God damnit, not Quill, Multiple Man, and Arclight.

Those are the factors that were lacking, that held this film from being the best of the franchise. All of the elements were in place for this to be the best. It had an amazing concept behind in, in the cure plotline, and I feel that portion of the storyline was executed very well. Then there was the Phoenix storyline, which all in all, wasn't handled badly at all, I just think it needed some tweaking, I.E. having Cyclops take Wolverine's role in regards to Jean. But the way the story actually played out was good. The action was friggin' off the wall. The "money shot" was always the Golden Gate Bridge sequence, but I think that there were some other sequences that were just as worthy, mainly the sequence in Jean's house, and Jean going "biblical", as one reviewer put it, on Alcatraz, and Wolverine marching up to stop her, revealed adamantium skeleton and all (as much as that should have been Cyclops, seeing the Skeleton made it almost worth it). The characters we did get were executed well. Beast was amazing, and is my favorite character in the trilogy behind Magneto. Angel was good, for what he had, but he needed more. Wolverine, Xavier, Cyclops (for what he had) were great as always. Pyro really stepped up his game. I liked what was done with Juggernaut very much (except how he got taken out), and god damnit, I even liked Kitty Pryde. I would have liked more Colossus, as he's a personal favorite of mine, but damnit, at least he was a part of the team, in the final battle. Storm still wasn't Storm, but she was better, and had some kick ass sequences this time around. We got the Danger Room and a Sentinel for crying out loud. And damnit, seeing Wolverine go all berserker rage out in the woods was pretty freaking sweet.

So yes, there were some things in this film that held it back from being my favorite. And my complaints with it are a bit lengthy and detailed above. However, this isn't a complaints post. That's what's wrong with it, yes, but my point is to show that this film was close to being the best. As it is, it does some things better than X-Men and X2, and that's everything in the above paragraph. I admit it took me awhile to realize it, but I don't think we got cheated at all with this film. I don't buy into this "hate" for Rothman and Fox. Whatever politics were involved, I don't care. You know why? Because I got a freaking awesome TRILOGY of my favorite fictional universe ever. And when I say "trilogy", I don't mean X-Men and X2, I mean the whole thing, including X-Men: The Last Stand.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and some people legitamatley dislike this movie. That's cool. But I feel that many of the people voicing their displeasure with this film are just people who were out to hate it from the beginning, because of studio politics, AICN, Cyclops' fate, or what have you.

But this film was by no means a Batman Forever or Batman & Robin scale catastrophe. It wasn't Catwoman, Elektra or Hulk status either.

I love Bryan Singer as a filmmaker, and his take on the X-Men... but I must say, part of what stands out about X-Men: The Last Stand is that it doesn't hold back quite as much. I like the realistic setting set by Singer... that was the right move to turn this into a world that could be taken seriously. But I think Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, and co. also took it in the right direction by giving us a bit more high stakes action. I think combined, with Singer's realistic setting, and Ratner's actiony flair, we've been delivered a great series of movies on this fictional universe, where each movie has something to offer that the other 2 don't. And that is what will allow these movies to live on, to be watched by me over and over again, all 3 straight through. Each has something different to offer, while remaining consistant with each other.

Sorry for the length of this post, but this is something I've been wanting to say for a really long time, and well, those on here who know me know what happens when I let something build up in regards to the X-Men

Here's looking forward to October 3rd!

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Old 07-29-2006, 05:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

that's an excellent post Nell2ThaIzzay, I agree with you on everything 100%.

Good job not being a hater, btw!

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Old 07-29-2006, 06:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

You pretty much summed up everything Nell2ThaIzzay

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Old 07-29-2006, 06:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

all summed up... except more phoenix effect

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Old 07-29-2006, 07:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

Pretty much what you said but no phoenix behind Jean when she changes to Dark Phoenix and no phoenix flame and I think some characters in the film don't get enough screen time for Angel and Psylocke

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Old 07-29-2006, 07:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

PsylockE was not meant to be her. She was meant to be a cameo.

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Old 07-29-2006, 07:26 AM   #7
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

I think the hate for this movie is a bit unjust. Yes, what they did to Cyclops sucks, but he was basically thrown out of X2 also (plus, since we never see him die, he could always be brought back), and Rogue getting cured sucks, but was the movie really that bad. People act like this movie had absolutely no substance, and that is just not true. Did it have character development like the first 2? No, but there still is some character development in this movie. I mean, this movie had an extreme amount of characters, so not everyone was going to get their due time. Yes, this movie had flaws, but so did X-Men and X2.

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Old 07-29-2006, 07:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
the things that would have made X-Men: The Last Stand the best of the trilogy:

01. Cyclops:

02. Pacing:
And imo the pacing wouldve made cyclops at least appear more before he left the movie. Primary is pacing imo... they had an idea to kill cyclops, at least give him proper time imo... both of those paired together upset even more folks imo.

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

I'll add: Give colossus some more damn dialogue!!!!

Nell...

I was thinking x3 would be all out war between the x-men, brotherhood, and Sentinels... It could have been if it wasn't rushed, Im sure. no, scratch that. The phoenix story would be in x3. then the huge war would be in x4... or a combo.

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

I agree completely with these statements Nell2ThaIzzay, but that is what made me "hate" the movie: it was so close to be a decent movie... and it had so many dumb flaws...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
But this film was by no means a Batman Forever or Batman & Robin scale catastrophe. It wasn't Catwoman, Elektra or Hulk status either.
^I disagree with this tho, I LOVED the Hulk. *ho-hum*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
the scene with Beast on Alcatraz when he first meets Leech, those are all some really good moments. But what I don't like is how one scene shows Beast, on Alcatraz in San Francisco meeting with Dr. Rao, and the VERY NEXT SCENE is back in New York, where Xavier is teaching a class, and then Storm wheels him into a room where... BEAST IS AT! There needed to be something in between there to show his journey. I don't care, something! It's just way too fast for Beast to be in New York in the very next scene AFTER he was in San Francisco.

Pacing would have also helped to establish a bit better that Beast was a former team member. Except for a "Henry, you're always welcome here", and a throw away "I can't believe this used to fit me" line, there was no reference really towards him being an old X-Men member. And if it weren't for the fact that I am an X-Men fan, know that Beast was part of the original 5, and knew from interviews and talking to the writers that they were establishing him as an older student / team member, I dunno if I really would have caught onto that.
And I smile with this point (what a coicidence) Actually I created a scene for a connection between those scenes.

We're in the metro station and we see the usual people running to the metro, or chatting, or whatever. The camera focuses a person with the face covered by a trench coat and a hat walking towards the tickets booth.
Person w/ trench coat: One, please.
The camera focuses the hand of the ticket woman who gives out a metro card. A gloved hand takes the paper and hands out the money.
Person w/ trench coat: Thank you.
He gets in the metro, and stays in front of the door. The metro starts its journey. A girl looks at him, and giggles. The anonymous drives its look onto her and presses its hat onto its head. We still can't see his face.
The camera focuses all the people in the metro. A man sitting looks at the stranger with trench coat and vaguely directs his look to a person sitting next to him. He observes that that person is fidgeting his pocket, which reveals a gun
Man: Oh god…!
The person w/ gun gets up and BANG.
The man falls, and people in the metro scream.
Person w/ gun: Right! Who’s next? WHO’S NEXT! You! (he aims his gun to a woman’s head) Give me your handbag. GIVE ME your handbag. Now! And the rest! NOW!
The woman starts to tremble while she’s trying to get her handbag. The camera focuses the person w/ gun, and we see that behind him there’s the person w/ trench coat (unfocused). The person w/ gun violently turns and looks behind him while he’s aiming to the air. The person w/ tc isn't there anymore, there's only its hat. Slowly, the person w/gun turns back to the woman and suddenly, a blue, furry hand gets him by his shirt.
Beast (from the ceiling): I’ve seen people do such horrible things that I couldn’t describe with words…
He throws him onto the door (the door which chains the wagons)
Beast That’s why I consider your job pathetic.
The robber seems to be K.O.
Beast gets down, and looks at the corpse on the floor. He crouches and takes his wrist. He gets up and gives a big sigh. He looks around, and sees that a few people are looking at him suspiciously.
Beast It’d be… it’d be a good idea if someone could call the guard. Someone has to take charge of this… (looks at the robber) mindless person.
Nobody answers. He keeps staring at the public. He gets his hat, puts it on and goes to the next wagon.
We’re now in the same room of the encounter of Beast, Charles and Ororo.
Beast Charles, you know how much I hate appearing in public, specially with civilians.
Xavier: And you know how much I hate government agents in my mansion. If you come in a limousine or a helicopter, it’d be more than probable that a security guard would come with you.
Beast sighs.
Xavier: Also, your acts in the metro were very praiseworthy, Henry. Remembers me of the times when you were here.
Beast interrupts with a sarcastic laugh.
Beast: That’s why I left this mansion, Charles. Violence is not the best medicine
Xavier: I never, in my whole life, said that violence was the best way on solving the mutant discrepancies. It might be our last alternative, but
Beast: Charles, are we always going to come up with the same argument?
Storm: Hank?
Beast stops, and turns round.
Beast: Ororo!
They hug, (and you know how the scene continues)

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Old 07-29-2006, 11:29 AM   #11
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

The pacing was a worse a much worse problem than Cyclops imo but other than that I agree with you.

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Old 07-29-2006, 12:10 PM   #12
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Post Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

The pacing was one of my major gripes with it. Everything tended to happen to fast which is Ratner's style obviously, however, had this film been given more time to flesh out scenes, moments, and battles perhaps it wouldn't have been a issue.

The running time is another major gripe of mine as well. The concept of this film/story shouldn't have a running time of 104 minutes.

I will give Ratner credit as in general due to the politics, the rushed production, and the odds being stacked against a director he did turn out a pretty decent/average film and it's not a trainwreck by any means.

This movie should've been something of Uwe Boll status. So I respect Ratner for doing a good job for not caving in under pressure. I also loved the added dialogue that La She Beast wrote for the Beast/Xavier/Storm scene.

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Old 07-29-2006, 01:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

I don't agree with a lot o'that, Nell. I'm sorta in the middle.

The pacing, yes, was less than I would have desired... but, surprisingly, didn't bother me as much as I would have thought. Hopefully, with an extended cut, it should feel much richer and fuller.

I very much agree about Rogue. She would contemplate taking the cure, but wouldn't. I see what they went for, they wanted to surprise us. Which they did. I, myself, believe they invested the wrong message. It should have been, "Don't rid yourself of what makes you original." But I can also understand why she took it. These characters, especially Rogue, are more human than their comic counterparts. So, knowing that the cure is only temporary, I really have mixed feelings on that subject.

Nightcrawler should have been there, yes. This movie did lack a certain feel that X2 had, at least, for me. Nightcrawler's strong faith and outlook really provided something special for X2 and could have done the same for X3.

I'm so thankful Gambit was not in X3. If you look at those characters you mentioned, Nell, you'll see that they really didn't do much other than die. I wouldn't want Gambit to be wasted like that. They decided not to use him because they knew they had no room to do him justice. They were right. Maybe if they had a longer movie and more character space; Gambit could have enough effective time to give him at least a miniscule amount of characterization and possibly a team change.

I'm a huge Cyclops fan. Anyone who was here before the movie came out knows that. But what happened with Scott did make sense. In the comics, Mastermind killed Scott's astral form during an illusion. this is what drove Phoenix crazy evil. This is what happened in the movie; except it wasn't an illusion. It was more realistic. I don't truly believe Cyclops is dead... I mean, there has to be some explanation of Jean becoming Unconscious. My theory to that is after her power became to much from holding his optic beams back, she accidentally let go, he flew back into the woods, untintentionally shooting her with his optic beams. Or something like that (But that would ask the question, "Why didn't they try to track Scott down?"... I suppose you could say he was unconscious as well?). Either way, Scott was important to the storyline. He woke Jean, and his death was enough to make her snap. If you think about it, this movie really shows that Jean's only love was him. Someone had a great signature (Sorry for not finding who) that said something along the lines of, "She would rather be dead with Scott than live with Logan." That's true. I do think Scott could have been effective in the final battle, and yet, now I don't. He did deserve to be there, for Jean's sake, but he wouldn't of lasted. Sure, Logan shouldn't have been able to survive the demolecularization storm, but it's more probable he would than a man with no accelorated healing factor. Also, knowing that FOX didn't want Cyclops at all makes me value the role he did have even more.

There should have been a Phoenix Aura. Hands down. That would have made this movie that much better. People long to see their favorite characters and stories make it to a live version. Ya know, with actors, not comic panels or cartoons. And people want to see the movie/TV show accurately depict something they know and love. The Phoenix aura could have been mind-blowing.

It's just a matter of opinion. But like I said, I am waiting for an extended cut (with the other endings hopefully tacked on as well) to make a final judgment.

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
02. Pacing: The 2nd biggest problem I see with this movie is the pacing. I am a supporter of the line of thinking that says "this is a 3rd movie... you can't go in and expect everything to be explained for you, you have to understand that there are 2 movies beforehand that tell you who these characters are, and what events led up to the events of this movie", however, I think this film took that a bit too much for granted. I still do want to see SOME character development. And I do want to see events breathe a bit, and settle in. There were some good character moments; both opening flashbacks, the whole scene involving Iceman & Kitty Pryde after Xavier's funeral, the scene with Beast on Alcatraz when he first meets Leech, those are all some really good moments. But what I don't like is how one scene shows Beast, on Alcatraz in San Francisco meeting with Dr. Rao, and the VERY NEXT SCENE is back in New York, where Xavier is teaching a class, and then Storm wheels him into a room where... BEAST IS AT! There needed to be something in between there to show his journey. I don't care, something! It's just way too fast for Beast to be in New York in the very next scene AFTER he was in San Francisco.
hey don't forget when Wolverine went looking for Jean in the woods and mountains only to get tossed by Magneto...We are to assume Magneto and his army were somwhere in the woods of Northern California and treking towards San Fran...so Logan gets there BY MOTORCYCLE! and then shows up as if it was a few hours later, back at the Mansion in NEW YORK! Did he take the red eye?! A bullet train...whats going on here?

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

more character development , and not inecesare deades like cyclops!

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by The Original Bamfer

I'm a huge Cyclops fan. Anyone who was here before the movie came out knows that. But what happened with Scott did make sense. In the comics, Mastermind killed Scott's astral form during an illusion. this is what drove Phoenix crazy evil. This is what happened in the movie; except it wasn't an illusion. It was more realistic. I don't truly believe Cyclops is dead... I mean, there has to be some explanation of Jean becoming Unconscious. My theory to that is after her power became to much from holding his optic beams back, she accidentally let go, he flew back into the woods, untintentionally shooting her with his optic beams. Or something like that (But that would ask the question, "Why didn't they try to track Scott down?"... I suppose you could say he was unconscious as well?).
I can answer this last question for you in a way that doesn't contradict the film or require a large stretch of the imagination.

OK, we agree that Scott's encounter with Jean at Alkali Lake wasn't fatal. She was doing a delicateo balancing act keeping back his optic beams, got distracted, dropped and broke a few eggs. His beams came back, fired on her at point blank range. That's happened before, inside the dam. So Jean defended herself, not because of Dark Phoenix, but out of reflex. The same way you would if I shine a bright light in your face. Puts her hand up, and deflects his optic blast. Except with her powers at their new level, it's a much, much stronger reaction. So Cyclops gets catapulted back into the woods, much further and more violently than he was inside the dam.

Meanwhile, Jean too gets knocked back, just like she was inside the dam. They met on a rocky outcropping. Jean was found unconcious on some rocks right at the shore. What happened? She fell off that ledge, hit her head, and was knocked out. She was already traumatized and dazed, and this only added to it, so her memory was shot and didn't remember what happened. And the panic that set in during her last moments with Scott would explain all those rocks and sticks and leaves hovering in the air. When she gets upset, her powers flare uncontrollably. We see it happen later. It happened here too. After all, she is putting out an aura of power like a nuclear reactor. No big stretch of the imagination.

As to why they never found Scott? Several explanations, all of them reasonable. First off, no one knew that Scott was here. Their only clue were his glasses, and that was more of a plot device for the character's and audience's benefit. But no other substantial evidence. Certainly there was no mention of ever finding his motorcycle or belongings. Wolverine's good at tracking, but his skills don't work if there is no trail to follow. If Scott got catapulted far enough away through the air, there would be no tracks for Logan to follow. And his sense of smell wouldn't work either, especially if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction. Finally, keep in mind that even though the X-men have a supersonic transport, Alkali Lake is in Alberta, on the WESTERN side of the US/Canada, not on the Eastern side. It would still be at least a 2 hour flight minimum. By the time they arrived, he could have waken up and already left the area. Scott's spent a goodly long time being blind before he got his ruby quartz glasses and visor, he'd have practiced his survival training. It would still be quite an ordeal but not beyond his abilities, to fashion together some type of cane from a branch and try to grope and feel his way out of the woods. He could have fallen down into a ravine which would have made it even harder for them to track him, or he could have been picked up by hikers, rangers, hermits, campers, etc and taken to a medical facility.

It could also explain why when we see Xavier's funeral there isn't a memorial, grave, or mention of Scott. They could have held out hope until it finally became "obvious" that he must have been dead. Boy would they be surprised...

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

Another one of 'X3 could be better because thread ' lol, its made and done really and theres nothing we can do but read fan fics lol.

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by Bastila
Another one of 'X3 could be better because thread ' lol, its made and done really and theres nothing we can do but read fan fics lol.
Good enough! At least for now! BTW, what do you think of Grail or ECHO? Have you had a chance to read any of these alternate X3 novels yet?

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by ntcrawler
I can answer this last question for you in a way that doesn't contradict the film or require a large stretch of the imagination.

OK, we agree that Scott's encounter with Jean at Alkali Lake wasn't fatal. She was doing a delicateo balancing act keeping back his optic beams, got distracted, dropped and broke a few eggs. His beams came back, fired on her at point blank range. That's happened before, inside the dam. So Jean defended herself, not because of Dark Phoenix, but out of reflex. The same way you would if I shine a bright light in your face. Puts her hand up, and deflects his optic blast. Except with her powers at their new level, it's a much, much stronger reaction. So Cyclops gets catapulted back into the woods, much further and more violently than he was inside the dam.

Meanwhile, Jean too gets knocked back, just like she was inside the dam. They met on a rocky outcropping. Jean was found unconcious on some rocks right at the shore. What happened? She fell off that ledge, hit her head, and was knocked out. She was already traumatized and dazed, and this only added to it, so her memory was shot and didn't remember what happened. And the panic that set in during her last moments with Scott would explain all those rocks and sticks and leaves hovering in the air. When she gets upset, her powers flare uncontrollably. We see it happen later. It happened here too. After all, she is putting out an aura of power like a nuclear reactor. No big stretch of the imagination.


As to why they never found Scott? Several explanations, all of them reasonable. First off, no one knew that Scott was here. Their only clue were his glasses, and that was more of a plot device for the character's and audience's benefit. But no other substantial evidence. Certainly there was no mention of ever finding his motorcycle or belongings. Wolverine's good at tracking, but his skills don't work if there is no trail to follow. If Scott got catapulted far enough away through the air, there would be no tracks for Logan to follow. And his sense of smell wouldn't work either, especially if the wind was blowing in the wrong direction. Finally, keep in mind that even though the X-men have a supersonic transport, Alkali Lake is in Alberta, on the WESTERN side of the US/Canada, not on the Eastern side. It would still be at least a 2 hour flight minimum. By the time they arrived, he could have waken up and already left the area. Scott's spent a goodly long time being blind before he got his ruby quartz glasses and visor, he'd have practiced his survival training. It would still be quite an ordeal but not beyond his abilities, to fashion together some type of cane from a branch and try to grope and feel his way out of the woods. He could have fallen down into a ravine which would have made it even harder for them to track him, or he could have been picked up by hikers, rangers, hermits, campers, etc and taken to a medical facility.

It could also explain why when we see Xavier's funeral there isn't a memorial, grave, or mention of Scott. They could have held out hope until it finally became "obvious" that he must have been dead. Boy would they be surprised...
Exactly my theory

And that makes sense, as to why it may be difficult for them to track Cyclops. But if Jean is so powerful, which she is, how could she not psychically tell if Scott was alive? Her or Xavier? I guess Cerebro wasn't used, and could be explained as it was still being fixed or something. But, what we are thinking definitely works.

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by ntcrawler
Good enough! At least for now! BTW, what do you think of Grail or ECHO? Have you had a chance to read any of these alternate X3 novels yet?
grail i started to read and i am liking it. But the other one i dont know of.

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

I also think that the lack of Cyclops was the worst mistake they made.

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Old 07-29-2006, 02:47 PM   #22
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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I also think that the lack of Cyclops was the worst mistake they made.
that was the biggest mistake of the film.

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Old 07-29-2006, 03:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by The Original Bamfer
Exactly my theory
Their fans stand together

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And that makes sense, as to why it may be difficult for them to track Cyclops. But if Jean is so powerful, which she is, how could she not psychically tell if Scott was alive? Her or Xavier? I guess Cerebro wasn't used, and could be explained as it was still being fixed or something. But, what we are thinking definitely works.
Cerebro was most likely out of commission. Otherwise it WOULD have been used in some form or another in X3. Xavier is powerful, but he's not good at tracking mutants over long distances. He was able to sense something at Alkali Lake (along with every other telepath in the world, duh), but he admits as much that outside of the mansion grounds, he needs to use Cerebro. As for why Jean didn't try locating him? Well for one thing, she wasn't running on all cylinders or thinking straight. In addition, it's one thing to have super powers, but it's another thing to know how to use them or wield them. She demonstrated that with Scott's optic beams. She had the power to hold them back, but not the skill or finesse to do it safely. Same deal with tracking Scott. It didn't occur to her that she COULD do it, nor was she in the right frame of mind to do it either, since she let herself be convinced that she had killed him.

Let's look at that scene again in the infirmary, it went something like this:

Logan: "I need you to tell me what happened to Scott"
Jean: [flashbacks of her with Scott, image ends abruptly in a flash]... Oh God... kill me before I kill someone else...

Obviously she wasn't in the right state of mind to think or recall things clearly, and quickly gave into her hysteria.

There is another way this whole mess could have been salvaged: their mental link. That special psychic bond that Jean and Scott had. Let's rewind a little to when Xavier is first examining Jean. If X3 acknowledged their mental link and actually wanted to give Scott a chance, the scene could have played out like this:

Logan: "Did this Phoenix-thing that's taken over, kill Scott?"

Xavier: "I thought so too, except... [concentrates]... So you know, Jean and Scott's relationship created an extraordinairy psychic bond between their minds, unheard of between a telepath and non-telepath. They described it as a cross between an intercom and holding hands, letting them feel each other's presence no matter how far apart.

Logan: "Cute. But what does this have to do with anything?"

Xavier: "for the past 8 months, Scott mentioned having intense visions of Jean calling out to him. We thought he was either dreaming or hallucinating. But now I think otherwise."

Logan: "She was calling out to him? So Scooter didn't just run off on blind faith!"

Xavier: "Hardly. And there's... there's something else. I sense Jean's mind constantly calling out to Scott. And for a brief instant, it almost felt like he replied." [looks up at Logan]





Now that I think would have made X3 more interesting...

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Old 07-29-2006, 03:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by Bastila
grail i started to read and i am liking it. But the other one i dont know of.
ECHO is another alternate X3 feature-length novel. It's still under construction but there are 8 chapters so far. The author's vision behind Jean's fate and what happens after X2 is also WAY different and in a whole other direction. I'm not sure I agree with it, but the way it's written I can't help but like it. There are some beautifully written scenes. Even if you don't like the book, I think just the 3 flashback scenes so far make it worth the effort. There's also a GREAT scene between Scott and Logan where Scott pretty much owns his butt as far as Jean. He points out not only Why Logan doesn't have what it takes to win Jean over or love her, and why she wouldn't love him back, but why he never even stood a chance. He gets beaten so hard it makes you want to stand up and applaud.
The other part of the story involves something that gives Xavier, Scott, and Logan the chills and you'll probably feel the same way.

Here's the link:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/Kaleidoscope/ECHO.htm

Like Grail and other works of fanfiction, ECHO Gives X3 the depth, tone, and character development that the X3 movie lacked. There's plenty of action in both, but it's never the action or explosions that tell the story. It's the characters that do.


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Old 07-29-2006, 04:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: What would have made "X-Men: The Last Stand" the best of the series:

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Originally Posted by Nell2ThaIzzay
01. Cyclops: Not to throw any blame around, but whoever's idea it was to get rid of Cyclops (be it Fox, and "revenge" for Marsden going to work with Singer on Superman Returns, be it Fox for wanting to showcase Wolverine, and the only way to do that was to have him replace Cyclops is what was Cyclops' story, or whether it was the writer's for emotional impact for Jean's condition), it was a bad idea, and cheapened the movie a bit. For us fans, it was also the biggest diversion from the source material in the entire franchise. And for casual viewers, well, one experience doesn't speak for the masses, but my friend who I saw the film with, who doesn't even care about the X-Men, stated "I didn't think I'd care (regarding Cyclops' death), but after seeing it played out, I felt it cheapened the story to kill him off and with him gone Wolverine could conveniently display his love for Jean and be her hero"... this is from someone who doesn't give a damn about the X-Men and doesn't know jack **** about the comic storylines, and even he understood that Cyclops should have been around. I've had a few other experiences from regular movie goers who thought getting rid of Cyclops made no sense. I think even with the other errors in the film, that will be further down on this list, if this was the only change to the movie, it would have helped to catapult it above even X2. I feel that drastic change from the source material is the major factor that holds this movie back from being the best of the franchise, because when I think about what was wrong with the film, the first thing I think of is how the Phoenix Saga was handled, and how the major problem with that was no Cyclops.
I think Cyclops' demise would have been a lot more pwoerful it was done a little slower with a little bit of drama. I know we see it with Prof X and a few have said it wouldn't have been as powerful if we saw it with Cyclops too, but I disagree- it wouldn't have been a "psi battle" like X vs. Pheonix, but a little differently at Alkali lake (as well as a dramatic Jean Grey ressurection) would have made that part of the film a little more 'elegant' so to speak.

I agree with your pacing comments... the editing on this film is horrible. Hopefully we get an extended cut in the future the way it was meant to be.

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