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Old 08-10-2011, 05:02 PM   #651
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Oh! Loganbade, I caught some of "Inside I'm Dancing" on YouTube--I have got to get this movie. I had no idea James McAvoy had already played a disabled person before; now I'm really confident he'll do well in an X-men FC sequel. Awesome!

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Old 08-10-2011, 06:44 PM   #652
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Oh! Loganbade, I caught some of "Inside I'm Dancing" on YouTube--I have got to get this movie. I had no idea James McAvoy had already played a disabled person before; now I'm really confident he'll do well in an X-men FC sequel. Awesome!
Yay!
The movie is amazing, and James is brilliant in it! It was the first time I saw him acting - well, not really, it was in Narnia, but it was the first time he was the main focus of the story - and I couldn't take my eyes from the TV screen. He plays Rory with a fierce determination; someone who, despite his huge physical limitations (because of the muscular dystrophy, he can only move one finger) forced the people around him to treat him for who he was, not for what the disease made him be. So he could be annoying, arrogant, even mean. And James nailed that character.

The difference between Rory and Charles is that Rory was born with the disease - he never knew what was like to be like everybody else. Of course, his condition still frustrated him sometimes, but he never let the frustration get in the way of the things he wanted to do.
With Charles, it was a traumatic event, and of course life as he knew it would be totally different from the moment he became aware of his condition. I love Rory, but he doesn't exactly break my heart like Charles does. And the nice thing is that they're completely different characters, so it will be interesting to see how James will portray Charles in the next film, even physically.

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Old 08-10-2011, 07:38 PM   #653
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And actually, I've never thought Xavier dull, but he was never my favorite character--Rogue (comic book Rogue, not movie Rogue) was my favorite. I think XM:FC has shifted that; I think Xavier's my favorite now.
Logan has always been my favorite. He's tragic, but not exactly brooding. He has a sense of humour, he likes to fight and drink and chase women. A character like Batman kind of annoys me, because he's so humourless, he takes himself so seriously. Logan is the bad guy who decided to fight alongside the good guys, an unruly man who decided to follow the rules and discipline of a team. I really like his contradictions and the fact that he decided to stay at Chuck's side. Because due to all that happened to him, Logan could have had very well turned into a villain, but he decided to follow the hardest route, that of trying to make something good with his life.

You can tell I have no patience for villains of any kind.

Even though I was never particulary a fan of Charles, I've always been Team Charles Xavier all the way. So I would never call him dull, even if he wasn't my favorite. Why would anyone call a man who's so powerful like Charles dull is beyond me. Obviously the character has never been exposed, and explored, to the fullest in the movies, and I'm glad that FC is starting to change this. So yeah, I guess it was okay to admire Charles, but not love him - and personally, I can do both now.

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Oh, and I agree--Charles would make light of his situation. You see it in the movie; he has a little bit of a barrier up. He uses charm as a defense mechanism. Kind of like how some people use humor and others anger, Charles can make light, brush something off and make a small joke, and everyone thinks he's fine...but he's not. And it starts to show eventually.
Like when he was talking to Moira, and was all "oh, yeah, next thing I know I'll be bald", using that lightness to make people think he was okay, making jokes and all.
My guess is that eventually, he'll feel desperately lonely. He lost Erik and Raven, and sent Moira away. Of course he still has Hank, Alex and Sean, but he'll try to hide his feelings as much as possible, kind of to protect them, and will unconsciously alienate the boys. Charles then will turn to the new version of Cerebro almost like a man drowning, and that's when his powers will amplify and kind of drive him mad. So we'll have dark Charles, which is maybe what James meant when he said the character should meet his crucible, had to look into the abyss, so that he could eventually emerge as the Professor X we know from the first X-Men trilogy. I think it would be amazing...Charles offers so many interesting possibilities as a character.

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Second, I'm under the impression that Charles has very focused telepathy. He doesn't read or feel anything from anyone else unless he wants to. You see this in the movies; he's not using his abilities all the time. He focuses and then lets loose.
That's my guess too. I think it took him a great deal of discipline, to reach that level of control.
Charles already seemed pretty focused in FC, but the event that changed his life most certainly changed the way he dealt with his power - as if he was reaching that level of perfect equilibrium, and then it was shattered. And he had to go through the process all over again, only now with deep emotional and physical scars.

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Old 08-10-2011, 08:42 PM   #654
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Like when he was talking to Moira, and was all "oh, yeah, next thing I know I'll be bald", using that lightness to make people think he was okay, making jokes and all.
My guess is that eventually, he'll feel desperately lonely. He lost Erik and Raven, and sent Moira away. Of course he still has Hank, Alex and Sean, but he'll try to hide his feelings as much as possible, kind of to protect them, and will unconsciously alienate the boys. Charles then will turn to the new version of Cerebro almost like a man drowning, and that's when his powers will amplify and kind of drive him mad. So we'll have dark Charles, which is maybe what James meant when he said the character should meet his crucible, had to look into the abyss, so that he could eventually emerge as the Professor X we know from the first X-Men trilogy. I think it would be amazing...Charles offers so many interesting possibilities as a character.
THIS THIS THIS. Ever since I first read McAvoy's comments about a darker Charles I wanted it to tie to Cerebro somehow. I've read a couple fanfics where he uses it to try and track down Erik but I don't know that he would do that. Ironically, despite all his good intentions, I can't see HIM being the one to offer the olive branch first. But I can definitely see him abusing Cerebro in general, under the excuse that he's trying to build the team but really just wanting to find more mutants to connect with. And then it gets out hand. It could get tricky though, depending on where Fox levels its continuity issues. Charles states Erik helped him build Cerebro; this is still quite possible as Hank has the brains but not the metal (no pun intended) for the machine. It would be a nice moment between the old friends. But at the same time I think Cerebro could play a really cool major part throughout the film. The series is an allegory for so many things, Cerebro could be their version of substance abuse in the place of alcohol or drugs. They could also tie this back in with how Jean, the student, isn't allowed to use it right away because it's too much for her and she needs to learn how to control herself before she tries it.

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That's my guess too. I think it took him a great deal of discipline, to reach that level of control.
Charles already seemed pretty focused in FC, but the event that changed his life most certainly changed the way he dealt with his power - as if he was reaching that level of perfect equilibrium, and then it was shattered. And he had to go through the process all over again, only now with deep emotional and physical scars.
This is a really excellent point. Again I think I've read too many fanfics that involve Charles feeling moods automatically that I forget nice details of the film like how much he doesn't know about Raven and really doesn't have the faintest damn clue why she's acting so weird. But at the same time he was particular about blocking himself with Raven (and presumably Erik after their first meeting) but he proved he had no problem wandering in and out of people's minds without permission. Where the boy trio lie on that it's never stated and I could see him going either way about it.

Seeing him relearn his own powers is a brilliant idea. Like I keep saying, First Class is Erik's film. Second Class (hopefully a more creative title springs up) should be Charles'. Or even both of theirs in different ways. Erik can fight the villain. Charles can fight himself. It'd be a great opportunity for them to help each other fight the other's enemy. And it'd come full circle if Charles helped unlock Erik's power and Erik helped him control his.

I can't WAIT to see what they do with a sequel. Now that it's past 351M WW and is still pulling 6-digit weeks domestically, I'm feeling way more confident that a sequel will be in the works. I just hope they don't screw it up. It has so much potential.

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Old 08-11-2011, 04:59 AM   #655
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I have to agree with Loganbabe.

Chuck's never been my favorite mutant. Be it in comics or the movies and his death in both film and print never bothered me one bit, but along comes First Class...

I mean the entire time the movies have been around we only saw glimpses of Chuck's past, which were neat, but in these flashbacks we always saw him as a responsible, level-headed Mutant who only wants what is best for Mutant-kind, and although that's still seen in First Class, we actually get to see different aspect of Xavier

We see him down a yard of beer, we see him trying to pick up a chick, we even see him throw jokes and kiss a chick, something we barely ever saw in print and never in the movies.

So yes, this movie made me change the way I thought of Xavier, I mean by the way he was in the comics, movies and shows, I could have sworn the dude was born without a single "fun" bone in his body and it was nice to Chuck with some actual energy.

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Old 08-11-2011, 01:00 PM   #656
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Yay!
The movie is amazing, and James is brilliant in it! It was the first time I saw him acting - well, not really, it was in Narnia, but it was the first time he was the main focus of the story - and I couldn't take my eyes from the TV screen. He plays Rory with a fierce determination; someone who, despite his huge physical limitations (because of the muscular dystrophy, he can only move one finger) forced the people around him to treat him for who he was, not for what the disease made him be. So he could be annoying, arrogant, even mean. And James nailed that character.

The difference between Rory and Charles is that Rory was born with the disease - he never knew what was like to be like everybody else. Of course, his condition still frustrated him sometimes, but he never let the frustration get in the way of the things he wanted to do.
With Charles, it was a traumatic event, and of course life as he knew it would be totally different from the moment he became aware of his condition. I love Rory, but he doesn't exactly break my heart like Charles does. And the nice thing is that they're completely different characters, so it will be interesting to see how James will portray Charles in the next film, even physically.
You're right--they're completely different characters. I imagine that one of Charles' biggest issues will be that he'll feel like he's lost his dignity, which isn't true, but I imagine that'll be a big part of it. Someone with his condition is typically independent most of the time, but there are moments when you have to depend on others. You don't have control of half your body but that part of your body is still alive and has to be cared for. God, how frustrating would that be? Especially just after the event (they better not move the story ahead 10 years and have Erik and Charles just set in their ways--oh, that would piss me off!). Can you imagine just the simple act of touching your leg and not being able to feel it? It'd be like touching someone else's leg.

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Old 08-11-2011, 01:28 PM   #657
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I have to agree with Loganbabe.

Chuck's never been my favorite mutant. Be it in comics or the movies and his death in both film and print never bothered me one bit, but along comes First Class...

I mean the entire time the movies have been around we only saw glimpses of Chuck's past, which were neat, but in these flashbacks we always saw him as a responsible, level-headed Mutant who only wants what is best for Mutant-kind, and although that's still seen in First Class, we actually get to see different aspect of Xavier

We see him down a yard of beer, we see him trying to pick up a chick, we even see him throw jokes and kiss a chick, something we barely ever saw in print and never in the movies.

So yes, this movie made me change the way I thought of Xavier, I mean by the way he was in the comics, movies and shows, I could have sworn the dude was born without a single "fun" bone in his body and it was nice to Chuck with some actual energy.
Haha--I've always like Xavier, but mainly from X1 and X2 (he's a bit of a jerk in X3 and out of character--"I don't have to explain myself, especially to you," is something he says to Logan and I would NEVER imagine him saying something like that to Logan). He also dismissed Scott from the team because Scott wasn't getting over Jean's death, and I'm thinking..."uh, dude--you're a telepath. And you're the leader. Why don't you spread some of that telepathic/empathic wisdom to this poor guy who you've known since he was a teenager?" Yeah, seriously out of character.

I was sad when he died, but mainly because they just decided to kill everybody in X3. It was like they were trying to manifest drama and thought, "Well, what gets the audience emotional? I know! Let's kill all the characters." I don't take X3 as canon, to be honest.

XM:FC has completely re-shaped my view on Xavier. Whoever thought that having Xavier chug-a-lug alcohol, hit on women and have hair was a freakin' genius. It definitely creates a new spin on this character, and makes him so much more rounded.

Although I really like most of the X-men, I have to admit that one reason Logan stands out from the others is that a lot of X-men are, um...boring. Some have very similar personalities and come off as bland (Scott and Storm are good examples--I mean, no wonder Jean is hot for Logan--Scott and her have no chemistry. And Storm...she's got amazing powers, but just like Scott, no sense of humor or personality quirks. That's just my take).

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Old 08-11-2011, 04:00 PM   #658
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Yeah, I agree. I'm glad that X3 isn't canon anymore. At the start of X3 we see Xavier still friends with Magneto and he's walking.

So taking the events of First Class into consideration, what's happens in The beginning of X3 is impossible.

I'd like to see the sequel of first class with the murder of JFK as the backdrop.

Magneto finds out JFK ordered their destruction during the Missile Crisis, and one November day in Texas, Magneto controls some gun and JFK is killed.

I agree with the above poster, I don't want them to fast-forward 10 years and set during the Vietnam War.


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Old 08-11-2011, 06:03 PM   #659
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I like Vaughn. But sometimes he comes off as a real ass during interviews...
Indeed. It's like Lars von Trier. They make great movies, but are real douches when they talk.
This is the bit of the Vaughn interview that irked me:

"When we first meet him, heís not a professor, and we were trying to show that transition. Itís just not as fun. Seeing Magneto growing into a villain is far more interesting than seeing a guy sadly becoming a cripple, and becoming a teacher, ultimately. Itís not quite the arc you want to see as much, but I think James did a fabulous job, because itís the hardest character to make interesting."

I hate how he said it. Like "he becomes a cripple, and a teacher", as if Charles turns into the most uninteresting character ever created. And he managed to be dismissive of disabled people and teachers at the same time. Douche.

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You're right--they're completely different characters. I imagine that one of Charles' biggest issues will be that he'll feel like he's lost his dignity, which isn't true, but I imagine that'll be a big part of it. Someone with his condition is typically independent most of the time, but there are moments when you have to depend on others. You don't have control of half your body but that part of your body is still alive and has to be cared for. God, how frustrating would that be? Especially just after the event (they better not move the story ahead 10 years and have Erik and Charles just set in their ways--oh, that would piss me off!). Can you imagine just the simple act of touching your leg and not being able to feel it? It'd be like touching someone else's leg.
Oh please...it's so awful. I can't really imagine it. I was reading a fanfiction and it was how he couldn't feel when he needed to use the bathroom. I know that the main issue is always about not being able to walk - which is horrible enough, of course - but things like this are so scary to me. Like you said, feeling like you lost all dignity. I think about this all the time when I walk the streets of my own city, and see how unprepared they are to acomodate disabled people. Damn.
You know, I totally agree with you, I would really hate if they decided to move the story ahead, not showing how Charles dealt with his condition, not showing how Erik dealt with his guilt and regret. I would hate it so much, I kid you not!

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Haha--I've always like Xavier, but mainly from X1 and X2 (he's a bit of a jerk in X3 and out of character)
I know, it was really strange. Like they wanted to give Charles an edge or something, and he ended up being almost a different character. He would never be so dismissive of Scott like that, so uncaring.

But then, it happened in FC too. I mean, Charles would never in a million years say something so stupid to Erik as "they are just following orders!" I hated that they decided to give that line to him, the one person who would surely never say it because he had been inside Erik's mind and he knew his traumas caused by "men following orders". But it was important that Erik looked all cool and justified saying "never again", and unfortunately it was Charles who had to pay with bad characterization.

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Although I really like most of the X-men, I have to admit that one reason Logan stands out from the others is that a lot of X-men are, um...boring. Some have very similar personalities and come off as bland (Scott and Storm are good examples--I mean, no wonder Jean is hot for Logan--Scott and her have no chemistry. And Storm...she's got amazing powers, but just like Scott, no sense of humor or personality quirks. That's just my take).
I have to say I couldn't agree more.

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Old 08-11-2011, 11:41 PM   #660
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But then, it happened in FC too. I mean, Charles would never in a million years say something so stupid to Erik as "they are just following orders!" I hated that they decided to give that line to him, the one person who would surely never say it because he had been inside Erik's mind and he knew his traumas caused by "men following orders". But it was important that Erik looked all cool and justified saying "never again", and unfortunately it was Charles who had to pay with bad characterization.
I don't see how that is out of character. Charles was panicking. Everyone says stuff that might come off as insensitive when they're stressed out. Charles simply revealed his true feelings while under pressure to save hundreds of innocent lives. That's how Charles viewed the situation and that view point is what doomed the Magneto/Professor X friendship.

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Old 08-12-2011, 07:21 AM   #661
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That's how Charles viewed the situation and that view point is what doomed the Magneto/Professor X friendship.
So it was Charles who "doomed" their friendship alone...not Erik betraying him by putting on a helmet which belonged to the man he hated most in life (as if he trusted Shaw more than he trusted Charles), then making him feel a coin passing through his head in slow motion, then willing to kill thousands, which would make Charles feel more deaths inside his head all over again, then punching him on the face and almost knocking him out, then deflecting a bullet into his spine that would make him a paraplegic for life, then abandoning him gravely injured and leaving with the only way of transport out of Cuba?
All right then.

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Old 08-12-2011, 07:58 AM   #662
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Indeed. It's like Lars von Trier. They make great movies, but are real douches when they talk.
This is the bit of the Vaughn interview that irked me:

"When we first meet him, heís not a professor, and we were trying to show that transition. Itís just not as fun. Seeing Magneto growing into a villain is far more interesting than seeing a guy sadly becoming a cripple, and becoming a teacher, ultimately. Itís not quite the arc you want to see as much, but I think James did a fabulous job, because itís the hardest character to make interesting."

I hate how he said it. Like "he becomes a cripple, and a teacher", as if Charles turns into the most uninteresting character ever created. And he managed to be dismissive of disabled people and teachers at the same time. Douche.

Well...yeah, that's not a good idea to criticize one of the main characters in your movie, especially since, in any future movies, he's going to be handicapped. And, to be frank, people who are handicapped can be very happy and live happy lives. I think that Charles' story arc is gold--he had everything going for him, and then lost his best friend, his sister, his faith in mankind had to be shaken a little (did you see the look on his face on the beach when he realized the Soviets and Americans were about to fire their missiles?), and also his ability to walk. Just how much more conflict can you put on a character??? If Vaughn can't figure out a way to make this character work in the sequel, then he's just being lazy.



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Oh please...it's so awful. I can't really imagine it. I was reading a fanfiction and it was how he couldn't feel when he needed to use the bathroom. I know that the main issue is always about not being able to walk - which is horrible enough, of course - but things like this are so scary to me. Like you said, feeling like you lost all dignity. I think about this all the time when I walk the streets of my own city, and see how unprepared they are to acomodate disabled people. Damn.

The fan fiction is right--his bladder is paralyzed. It's not just a matter of going to the bathroom; he has to do special things to actually go, which I won't get into here. There are other things; it's different nowadays because of fertilization clinics, but in the 1960's, I don't think he could have kids. His legs will have some atrophy as time progresses because he can't use them...it's absoluately unbelieveable all the "little things" most people don't think about. One of the professors here has a friend with a similar condition; it takes her 3 hours to get ready in the morning.



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You know, I totally agree with you, I would really hate if they decided to move the story ahead, not showing how Charles dealt with his condition, not showing how Erik dealt with his guilt and regret. I would hate it so much, I kid you not!

I don't think I would be that interested in seeing a movie that skipped ahead on my favorite FC character. I'd probably see it once like XM:TLS, go "meh," and leave it at that. I saw FC four times in the theater; that money adds up.

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I know, it was really strange. Like they wanted to give Charles an edge or something, and he ended up being almost a different character. He would never be so dismissive of Scott like that, so uncaring.


But then, it happened in FC too. I mean, Charles would never in a million years say something so stupid to Erik as "they are just following orders!" I hated that they decided to give that line to him, the one person who would surely never say it because he had been inside Erik's mind and he knew his traumas caused by "men following orders". But it was important that Erik looked all cool and justified saying "never again", and unfortunately it was Charles who had to pay with bad characterization.

You know...I actually disagree about FC. The main reason I disagree is because there's nothing else Charles could really say otherwise--he can't stop Erik from doing what he's doing and the "humans" are, indeed, trying to kill them. I actually liked the line, especially how James delivered it; he sounded so desperate and panicked. And Charles is telling the truth; most of the men on the ships probably had NO IDEA why they were even shooting at the beach. They just knew the beach was still considered a danger.


To me, that line (and Erik's "I've been at the mercy..." line) represented the different sides of how these characters view the same situation; Erik believing that the humans will always betray them and Charles believing that most of them are ignorant of what's really going on and shouldn't be punished for that. But that's just me.

I don't feel like Charles is the one that "doomed" the Xavier/Magneto relationship. In fact, I don't think it was ever doomed at all; they're still friends in XM1 and XM2. I think Charles would do just about anything to protect mutants and humans, and Erik will do anything to make sure mutants prosper...which means controlling or killing all of humanity if necessary.



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I have to say I couldn't agree more.


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Old 08-12-2011, 10:09 AM   #663
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Yeah, I agree. I'm glad that X3 isn't canon anymore. At the start of X3 we see Xavier still friends with Magneto and he's walking.

So taking the events of First Class into consideration, what's happens in The beginning of X3 is impossible.

I'd like to see the sequel of first class with the murder of JFK as the backdrop.

Magneto finds out JFK ordered their destruction during the Missile Crisis, and one November day in Texas, Magneto controls some gun and JFK is killed.

I agree with the above poster, I don't want them to fast-forward 10 years and set during the Vietnam War.
Yeah, they can just block X3 out completely. Don't get me wrong--there were things I liked: I thought Kelsey Grammer made a great Beast (and I think his make-up was WAY better than XM:FC's Beast make-up; love the character, but yikes); I like Ellen Page as Kitty, I hated Dark Pheonix but I have to admit, that zombie look Jear was sporting when she used her powers was CREEPY; and although I didn't like Xavier dying and the fact Jean was the one that killed him, the scene was pretty dramatic--watching Storm and especially Logan collapse was powerful. Also, I liked that they added a different POV into the mix with Angel's dad believing that mutants are people that are "diseased" and need to be cured--not less-than-human. He was misguided but his view was compassionate. So there's that.

I think the JFK idea, in theory, is great. I mean, I really love the idea that Magneto plays such a role in history that we didn't even know about. However, I feel uneasy about taking the tragedy of a real-life person and putting it into a fictional piece like this. It's one thing when it's a major event that involved tons of people--I think during the Cuban Missile Crisis, a pilot died in a plane crash but that's not played out in the film--but to pinpoint a single individual like JFK...it might be crossing a boundary I don't want it to cross. Even if it's a great idea.

And yes, no fast-forwarding! Let's deal with the problems that started at the end of XM:FC, with the splitting of Charles and Erik/Raven, and the start of the two divisions of mutants. That's where the gold is, IMO.

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Old 08-12-2011, 08:31 PM   #664
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I think that Charles' story arc is gold--he had everything going for him, and then lost his best friend, his sister, his faith in mankind had to be shaken a little (did you see the look on his face on the beach when he realized the Soviets and Americans were about to fire their missiles?), and also his ability to walk. Just how much more conflict can you put on a character??? If Vaughn can't figure out a way to make this character work in the sequel, then he's just being lazy.
Exactly. It saddens me that Vaughn is so dismissive of Charles, because I really love FC, so I have this inner conflict - despite not being interested in Charles, Vaughn still gave us the best version of the character we could possible have. I know that he was trying to praise James, but it came out the wrong way. Like "oh, we have this very boring and bland character here, but he's Magneto's nemesis so he needs to be in the film, so we need a great actor here otherwise people will kill themselves over a crippled teacher boring and sad life". I mean, of course Xavier can be presented as boring, but the character's potential for great story arcs is amazing; it only depends on good ideas, good writers and an interested director - the good actor they already have.
Xavier has the potential to fry minds all over the world using his power, but he decides to contain said power and make it work for something constructive - the school, and being a teacher - so I guess this is considered boring? I mean, of course he doesn't go on destroying bridges and sending back missiles to kill thousands, so...

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The fan fiction is right--his bladder is paralyzed. It's not just a matter of going to the bathroom; he has to do special things to actually go, which I won't get into here. There are other things; it's different nowadays because of fertilization clinics, but in the 1960's, I don't think he could have kids. His legs will have some atrophy as time progresses because he can't use them...it's absoluately unbelieveable all the "little things" most people don't think about. One of the professors here has a friend with a similar condition; it takes her 3 hours to get ready in the morning.
Damn.
I mean, there's no way a normal person won't go through a period of severe depression, having to face the reality of this condition. In Charles' case, we know very well that he'll eventually conquer it, but as optimistic and enthusiastic as he was as a young man, it's too big a blow. Too many losses.
But I have the firm belief that, like you said, there's a possibility of happiness for people with SCI, or any other severe disability. It comes within the human spirit. With Xavier, it certainly came when he put his life into that school. Charles never had kids of his own (in the movies, not talking about comics, which is a different universe as we know very well), but in a way he had lots of them.

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You know...I actually disagree about FC. The main reason I disagree is because there's nothing else Charles could really say otherwise--he can't stop Erik from doing what he's doing and the "humans" are, indeed, trying to kill them. I actually liked the line, especially how James delivered it; he sounded so desperate and panicked. And Charles is telling the truth; most of the men on the ships probably had NO IDEA why they were even shooting at the beach. They just knew the beach was still considered a danger.
I think it's the way the sentence was worded that I thought was so out of character - not Charles trying to defend the humans. He first used "there are innocent men on those ships", which was strong and so very Charles - it was something he would say for sure, so I was okay with it. But I cringed at the "just following orders" because, even though I think he's right somehow - most of the men on those ships had no idea of what was going on, they weren't necessarily biased against mutants, but if the higher command says "fire, because there's a huge alien threat at that beach", they'll follow orders and they'll shoot. It's totally different from the context of "following orders" under the nazi regimen, because those soldiers knew they were killing women and children and old people who offered no threat to them. So why make it look as if Charles hipotetically thought that "men following orders" are just innocent men, therefore the nazis who killed Erik's family could also be considered innocent? Because it certainly looked like that, hence the "never again" sentence. I don't know, it just pissed me off. Why didn't they keep the "innocent men" speech for Charles? There was no need for him to use the "just following orders" thing.
I agree that he was under a lot of pressure and stressed out, and it could have slipped. Actually, another thing that was skipped over - and would have helped people understand why Charles would try to avoid the death of those men at all costs - was how much Shaw's death affected Charles, mentally and physically. He had never had to feel a person dying before, plus there was the distress of the ultimate betrayal, Erik shutting him out. They made Charles scream in pain, and in the next scene...nothing. Not even a word from him. Some viewers obviously guessed that he had gone through hell, but the majority was just "Uh, Magneto is so cool, he killed the guy using a coin!" and that was it. It was important that a small scene showed Charles distressed and still dizzy from the pain, Moira trying to help him while he talked about "knowing what was like to be dead" or something.

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Yeah, they can just block X3 out completely. Don't get me wrong--there were things I liked: I thought Kelsey Grammer made a great Beast (and I think his make-up was WAY better than XM:FC's Beast make-up; love the character, but yikes); I like Ellen Page as Kitty, I hated Dark Pheonix but I have to admit, that zombie look Jear was sporting when she used her powers was CREEPY; and although I didn't like Xavier dying and the fact Jean was the one that killed him, the scene was pretty dramatic--watching Storm and especially Logan collapse was powerful.
I watched X3 the other day, and I still like it, despite its flaws. Of course the movie had the potentail to be wonderful and memorable, because the story of the cure, and the Phoenix, had the most amazing potential, and it was never fullfilled. But I agree that the Xavier / Jean fight scene was powerful, one of the best moments in the franchise - even though I didn't like that Charles died so quickly, but it was memorable anyway. The music was great, and that moment when everything stopped before Charles was disintagrated, and he looked at Logan...wow.

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Old 08-13-2011, 02:35 AM   #665
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All this Xmen 3 talk just reminds me how much I love that movie. Thats right I said it

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Old 08-13-2011, 01:32 PM   #666
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Exactly. It saddens me that Vaughn is so dismissive of Charles, because I really love FC, so I have this inner conflict - despite not being interested in Charles, Vaughn still gave us the best version of the character we could possible have. I know that he was trying to praise James, but it came out the wrong way. Like "oh, we have this very boring and bland character here, but he's Magneto's nemesis so he needs to be in the film, so we need a great actor here otherwise people will kill themselves over a crippled teacher boring and sad life". I mean, of course Xavier can be presented as boring, but the character's potential for great story arcs is amazing; it only depends on good ideas, good writers and an interested director - the good actor they already have.
Xavier has the potential to fry minds all over the world using his power, but he decides to contain said power and make it work for something constructive - the school, and being a teacher - so I guess this is considered boring? I mean, of course he doesn't go on destroying bridges and sending back missiles to kill thousands, so...
I just watched X2 again (all this XM talk got me into it) and it reminded me that Stewart's Xavier is pretty dang good, too. I loved the line he gives Logan at the beginning about his smoking, "Continue smoking that in here and you'll spend the rest of your days under the belief you're a six-year-old girl." That's the type of humor that makes me like that version, too.

I LOVE that he's incredibly powerful but he's a school teacher, and rarely uses his telepathy in a menacing way. It makes it that much more dramatic when he actually does have to use his abilities in that manner--like when he took control of the Russian to fire the missile at the Aral Sea ship. That was just fantastic and there's this slightly "creepy" long-humming pause in the music while he's doing it.

Yeah, whoever decided to make Charles an alcohol-drinking chick magnet was a freakin' genius. But they also showed aspects of his older self in there, too--the training montage was all Charles. Erik had parts in it, but you have to admit, Vaughn really let Charles own that scene. And the "rage and serenity" scene with Erik was just beautiful. Erik's memory made both men cry; making that look powerful and sweet at the same time is so impressive.

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Damn.
I mean, there's no way a normal person won't go through a period of severe depression, having to face the reality of this condition. In Charles' case, we know very well that he'll eventually conquer it, but as optimistic and enthusiastic as he was as a young man, it's too big a blow. Too many losses.

But I have the firm belief that, like you said, there's a possibility of happiness for people with SCI, or any other severe disability. It comes within the human spirit. With Xavier, it certainly came when he put his life into that school. Charles never had kids of his own (in the movies, not talking about comics, which is a different universe as we know very well), but in a way he had lots of them.
Yeah, the comics I don't really follow because they have too many parellel universes and they cross lines I don't, personally, like. Too far out there for me.

I was actually talking to one of the professors I work with this week (they know I'm a sci-fi geek there, so...), and he said that cancer patient groups tend to be happier than SCI victim groups usually. But that doesn't mean everyone with SCI is depressed or suicidal; in fact, I know of one that's getting married in a few weeks. But it shows just how traumatic this condition is.

It affects every single thing you do. Everything is affected. But I actually don't think of Charles as a tragic character; I think of him as an inspirational character that had something traumatic happen to him. That's what I think I like about him the most; people (real life) who are able to find happiness and fulfillment after something so horrid...they are just amazing. I'm in awe of people who are capable of such things.

Maybe that's why Charles' story arc speaks to me more than Erik's; Charles is able to accept and move past his trauma. Erik just can't seem to do that. But I think, in order for Charles to get to that point, he has to go through some hard times and pull himself out. Something Erik can't do.

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I think it's the way the sentence was worded that I thought was so out of character - not Charles trying to defend the humans. He first used "there are innocent men on those ships", which was strong and so very Charles - it was something he would say for sure, so I was okay with it. But I cringed at the "just following orders" because, even though I think he's right somehow - most of the men on those ships had no idea of what was going on, they weren't necessarily biased against mutants, but if the higher command says "fire, because there's a huge alien threat at that beach", they'll follow orders and they'll shoot. It's totally different from the context of "following orders" under the nazi regimen, because those soldiers knew they were killing women and children and old people who offered no threat to them. So why make it look as if Charles hipotetically thought that "men following orders" are just innocent men, therefore the nazis who killed Erik's family could also be considered innocent? Because it certainly looked like that, hence the "never again" sentence. I don't know, it just pissed me off. Why didn't they keep the "innocent men" speech for Charles? There was no need for him to use the "just following orders" thing.
I agree that he was under a lot of pressure and stressed out, and it could have slipped.
No, that's a good point. It probably wasn't the best thing for Charles to say to a Nazis survivor and the difference between the clueless men on the ships versus the not-so-clueless Nazis is grand. I still don't believe it's out of character per say, but rather Charles meaning it in a completely different way than how Erik interpreted it.

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Actually, another thing that was skipped over - and would have helped people understand why Charles would try to avoid the death of those men at all costs - was how much Shaw's death affected Charles, mentally and physically. He had never had to feel a person dying before, plus there was the distress of the ultimate betrayal, Erik shutting him out. They made Charles scream in pain, and in the next scene...nothing. Not even a word from him. Some viewers obviously guessed that he had gone through hell, but the majority was just "Uh, Magneto is so cool, he killed the guy using a coin!" and that was it. It was important that a small scene showed Charles distressed and still dizzy from the pain, Moira trying to help him while he talked about "knowing what was like to be dead" or something.
I think Charles wanted to avoid the death of those men because he didn't want them to die--period. Not because it would personally affect his telepathic mind--that would add a selfish reason to his actions to stop Erik and I don't personally feel it's needed. Plus, Charles is a strong person; if there had been a reason for those men to die (not saying there was), I think he could have taken it. Plus, he physically felt Shaw die because he had taken over Shaw's mind. Not the same scenario as the thousands of men on the boats.

BUT, I totally agree on the "Erik's coin death trick" scene. I loved how they showed how Charles had to endure all that pain and even right before it happened, watching the coin floating towards Shaw's head--Charles knew it was coming and was scared out of his freakin' mind. That was powerful.

But then, it was like, "well, I'm okay." No! I really wanted to see him recover from that after it happened, just after you see Erik's face after the coin hits the floor, it goes to Charles who is being helped by Moira because he's recovering from that event. Just a five second scene would have done it. I was surprised when the scene didn't go back to Charles but instead went to the CIA scene. That was weird to me.

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I watched X3 the other day, and I still like it, despite its flaws. Of course the movie had the potentail to be wonderful and memorable, because the story of the cure, and the Phoenix, had the most amazing potential, and it was never fullfilled. But I agree that the Xavier / Jean fight scene was powerful, one of the best moments in the franchise - even though I didn't like that Charles died so quickly, but it was memorable anyway. The music was great, and that moment when everything stopped before Charles was disintagrated, and he looked at Logan...wow.
Oh, it had great potential. In fact, I bought a copy of it this last year because there are certain scenes I like. But the characters were never fleshed out and after watching X2, I'm really annoyed that for X3 they didn't spend the time to make a good script and bring up the plot to its potential. And stop killing off all the characters!

And yes, the Charles death scene was well done, all things considered.

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Old 08-13-2011, 01:36 PM   #667
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All this Xmen 3 talk just reminds me how much I love that movie. Thats right I said it
You're most certainly allowed to! No hate for your opinion; you just love the crap out of that movie if you want.

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Old 08-13-2011, 11:50 PM   #668
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By the way, did anyone else find Mystique's anger at Charles unwarranted?

All Charles wanted was peace between Human and Mutants, but then she gets all high and mighty about Charles wanting to be like them (humans) That entire sequence had me wondering: Who is is she to talk?

All she's done since she was a kid was hide her blue skin, and all of a sudden now that she's accepted her mutation, it gives her the right to get mad at Charles?

I just don't see where Chuck even deserved that.


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Old 08-14-2011, 02:22 AM   #669
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By the way, did anyone else find Mystique's anger at Charles unwarranted?
I thought that the whole Raven situation was really strange to say the least. Although I loved the idea of Charles and Raven meeting as young kids, it also broke my heart because we know how it'll be in the future. So I saw no point in making them so close in FC, because later on it would look like a lie, but seeing the ealier scenes and the amount of love and intimacy between them we know it wasn't a lie, they really cared about each other. Argh... it's so damn complicated. So they certainly had some differences, but it wasn't something they couldn't work out. I can't accept that over the course of one night, just because Erik said she was perfection and looked good naked, Raven would abandon her brother gravely injured, the only person who had cared about her for years, to follow some gang of mutant assassins. It was one of the weirdest moments of the franchise so far. As much as I like FC, no one will ever convince me that Raven leaving was just the most natural thing for her to do. I hated it.

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Old 08-14-2011, 07:12 AM   #670
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totally agreed.

wrong decision from the writers and director.

they should have found another way to show Mystique leaving Charles.

Or at least, showing she wasnt as good girl as everyone thought

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Old 08-14-2011, 08:27 AM   #671
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By the way, did anyone else find Mystique's anger at Charles unwarranted?

All Charles wanted was peace between Human and Mutants, but then she gets all high and mighty about Charles wanting to be like them (humans) That entire sequence had me wondering: Who is is she to talk?

All she's done since she was a kid was hide her blue skin, and all of a sudden now that she's accepted her mutation, it gives her the right to get mad at Charles?

I just don't see where Chuck even deserved that.
I have mixed feelings about it; I see where both characters are coming from. And it's actually one thing I like is that Charles doesn't "get" something. He didn't realize how insecure Raven was or how badly she wanted acceptance as her true self. There are hints of it at the beginning where she asks him if he would, hypothetically, date her with her true, blue form. He avoided the question.

At the end of the movie, I felt that she still loves him deeply but can't stand the idea of hiding anymore. So she goes with Erik. Yes, leaving her "brother" gun-shot on the beach was pretty extreme, but at the same time, he told her to go.

I actually think that Erik, Charles or Raven didn't realize at that point just how bad their division between each another would become. In the future, it's like a secret, mutant civil war going on, but right there, it's a difference of philosophies.

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Old 08-14-2011, 05:27 PM   #672
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Yeah, it makes Mystique's poisoning of him in X1 all the more tragic.

(By the way, what was that green stuff she put in Cerebro? It certainly is never explained in X1)

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Old 08-14-2011, 06:28 PM   #673
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totally agreed.

wrong decision from the writers and director.

they should have found another way to show Mystique leaving Charles.

Or at least, showing she wasnt as good girl as everyone thought
It has nothing to do with her being good or bad. I think the movie makes it clear that, from the beginning, there is tension between Charles and Raven. It's clear he doesn't understand her, and it's even more clear that Raven is desperate to belong to something, anything, that accepts her for who she really is, and that something isn't Charles.

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Old 08-14-2011, 11:12 PM   #674
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It's clear he doesn't understand her
No, it's not clear at all.
There's some tension between them going on, but then I don't know of one relationship - among family or friends - that haven't got some issues.
What we see is also a very friendly and loveable relationship, of two people who cared about each other deeply. It's easy to see that they both helped each other in difficult times; there was a bond that was built between them, of "us against the world" that went on for more than a decade.
So...
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Raven is desperate to belong to something, anything, that accepts her for who she really is, and that something isn't Charles.
And why is that, really? The movie never gave me good enough reasons. Raven wanted to expose herself to the world? Okay, so she started to walk around all blue at a certain point, and we don't see Charles freaking out. Apparently, it was something they would start to work out, to discuss, like the best friends they were. But then, when Charles needs Raven the most, she abandons him. I don't care if he "gave her permission". I thought that it was very clear at that point that Charles was the one who was broken, who believed he had lost everything that was dear to him, who didn't have the strenght to fight anymore. He let her go, but Raven was the one who was supposed to fight for him this time, the same way he did for her when they were kids. She was selfish for leaving him there, thinking only about her own issues, following a group of people she hardly knew, including Erik. I hate her leaving with a passion.

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Old 08-17-2011, 10:40 AM   #675
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No, it's not clear at all.
There's some tension between them going on, but then I don't know of one relationship - among family or friends - that haven't got some issues.
What we see is also a very friendly and loveable relationship, of two people who cared about each other deeply. It's easy to see that they both helped each other in difficult times; there was a bond that was built between them, of "us against the world" that went on for more than a decade.
So...

And why is that, really? The movie never gave me good enough reasons. Raven wanted to expose herself to the world? Okay, so she started to walk around all blue at a certain point, and we don't see Charles freaking out. Apparently, it was something they would start to work out, to discuss, like the best friends they were. But then, when Charles needs Raven the most, she abandons him. I don't care if he "gave her permission". I thought that it was very clear at that point that Charles was the one who was broken, who believed he had lost everything that was dear to him, who didn't have the strenght to fight anymore. He let her go, but Raven was the one who was supposed to fight for him this time, the same way he did for her when they were kids. She was selfish for leaving him there, thinking only about her own issues, following a group of people she hardly knew, including Erik. I hate her leaving with a passion.
Well, she does end up being a villain in the end, so I guess there's that to consider.

I think this is a "agree to disagree" topic. I definitely see where you're coming from, and think you raise a good point; after all, no one knows the extent of Charles' injury at that time and he could have been dying.

But I also see where Raven was coming from, and agree with earlier posters that she had good reason to leave. She didn't leave lightly; Charles had to push her along (which goes back into his "Oh, I'm all right--don't worry about me," type of behavior). Maybe she should have caught onto that, knowing him for as long as she has, but then again...she does end up being a villain!

I don't think the problem was that Charles didn't accept her, even her blue form. And it's neither Charles' fault nor responsibility to find her attractive; that's a personal opinion and it's not fair to criticize him for not thinking her blue form is beautiful. I think Charles' mistake (and yes, I think he made one, being a human being and all), is that he assumed no one else would find her beautiful, either.

You see it in the beginning scene with Raven asking if Charles would, hypothetically, date her. He says that he would; that she's stunning and "any young man would be lucky to have you", and she says, "looking like this?" Charles replies, "Blue?" and then avoids the question completely and even criticizes her for being too much into her looks.

Again, he doesn't have to find her beautiful, but his assumption that no one else would find her beautiful was his error in judgment. I'm not saying that deserves her leaving him gun-shot on a beach, but I, personally, understand why she left.

This is one thing I actually, really like about this younger version of Charles; he's not perfect. He's not a messiah and he's flawed. Like everyone else. I'm so glad they put this into the movie; it makes him so much more real and also gives him a chance to develop more into his older self. Being in a wheelchair, he will have people staring at him, curious about him for the rest of his life. He will understand what it feels like to look different in public and have people judge him without knowing him.

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