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Old 09-06-2010, 06:41 PM   #1
bhayes
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Default Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

some fans are speculating that first class is not rebooting but retconning x3 and orgins.

or is first class a true reboot? and if so how is it that we are getting wolverine 2?

and a reboot of Deadpool with RR?

i have to admit we are all confused as am I.

can someone help me please. we need a authentic reboot. why is FOX torturing us like this!

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Old 09-06-2010, 07:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

We dont need a reboot.

Maybe 10 years from now , yeah sure lets get a reboot, but the x-men franchise is still strong despite the Wolverine movie being a failure.

Besides its wayyyy to soon for a reboot, it's not like weve hade a Batman and Robin or Superman 4 kind of movie.

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Old 09-06-2010, 07:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

The way I look at it… their taking the story far enough back, to not really have to worry about fallowing the continues, (as its not fallowing those stories) since, it takes place before them… an there for it gives them some lee way to somewhat establish a new continues…. With out necessarily retconn the other movies

Yes, even just from what we’ve heard so, far… there has been some inconsistencies, with the continues (it does seem like there picking a choose what to fallow) but, nothing that would really make me call it a full reboot


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Old 09-06-2010, 07:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

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We dont need a reboot.

Maybe 10 years from now , yeah sure lets get a reboot, but the x-men franchise is still strong despite the Wolverine movie being a failure.
i dont think wolverine was a failure, just a disapointment, FOX done well out of it despite the leak and generally got mixed reviews

this is how i see it wolverine origins messed deadpool up and made it hard to bring him back which was stupid and should of been planned out better, damn you fox

Xmen first class is bound to link up to singers xmen movies at least

i believe this is what happens when you try and stretch a franchise out in different directions, but right now its all stuck in the past

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Old 09-06-2010, 07:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

It's been stated by Vaughn, Singer and Donner that this film will follow the tone of X1 & X2, so it seems like what we saw in X3 and Origins may well be ignored.

A lot of fans don't consider those 2 films part as the X-franchise since they both under performed, story wise, not $ wise.

It appears that "First Class" will expand more on what we saw in X1 w/Charles, Eric, & Mystique flesh out their background and the same can be said for Moira & Beast, the latter in X3.

They way I see it we now have 3 set of X-films: X1,X2,(X3), Wolverine origins, and First Class, so one may say that X3 is beign treated as if it never happened, due to the fact Jean is not in the roster and given her origin in X3.

I'm getting the feeling that Fox is kicking themselves in the @$$ for letting Singer get away because it seems like some if his characters were gonna appear in his X3 and he had other ideas for certain characters and TLS messed up those characters. In a way those characters who were A.) under used or B.) "killed" or depowered will get new life and their moment to shine in the "First Class" series, that TLS missed out on. In a way I think Singer/Vaughn are retconning those characters who got the shaft in TLS and in a sequel (hopefully) will see what he planned to do w/Scott, Jean, Ororo & possibly adresss the Phoenix issue...

So in a way this film is a "Reboot" in terms of characters only, and not the look and feel of the film in general because it is paying homeage to what came before it, unlike TLS & Orgins that felt like their own movies who tried to emaculate its predecesor, but failed...

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Old 09-06-2010, 08:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

you guys are all making good points. X3 for me was a great movie. i know im not in the majority. but Brett Ratner & the writers did a good job ending the series if you ask me. great acting, great stunts, we got some authentic berserker rage. we got sentinels, the 4 way battle at Jean Grey's house was awesome. heroes fall. wolverine & storm are forced to learned the remaining x-men into battle, it was awesome. magneto finally achieve his goal of starting a war and creating an army.

it was orgins that messed up everything. i have to admit i had high hopes for orgins.
and i really would not have a problem had orgins been done right. Even since x2 lots of people have been talking reboot. and i was initially against it.

but orgins is an example of bad film making. even as a movie it just sucks. If Vaughn openly dislikes x3 i wonder how he felt about orgins? I'll bet singer his writers laughed at the poor film making in it.

so WB is developing the DC characters very well. Marvel is doing a great job with the avengers thing. Even though spider man didn't need a reboot its getting one anyway.
FF is getting rebooted as is Daredevil. Why can't they just stop torturing us like this.

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Old 09-06-2010, 08:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

I would say Origins is what messed up this franchise...the solo Wolverine movies has nothing to do with the X-Men franchise...but because they included Scott and Charles they tied it into Singer films...and now that I look back on it was a bad idea...because it seems like Xavier always knew about Logan's past from the jump...the whole mutant concentration camp was a good idea, but instead of Charles it should have been Magneto after he and X split and they could have used mutants we haven't seen yet like Avalanche, Domino, and Havoc would have been great here because he would be w/Magneto and then we wld have gotten Scott in "1st class" and continuity wouldn't be an issue...

TLS had good ideas, but the main problem was they were not executed well...to many characters were underdeveloped, Scott shouldn't have been depressed, but more strict and harsh w/the team, I could've did w/o Shadowcat because she didn't add nothing to the film and the cure should've had more debate w/the X-Men in general...imagine the conversations w/Storm, Rogue, Charles, Beast, Scott & Logan would be occupied w/Jean...this film should've had more debate and the phoenix sub plot would have made it more interesting...

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Old 09-06-2010, 09:41 PM   #8
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Yeah i agree with both posts above me.

X3 may have not been as good as the first 2 and had it's fair share of flaws, but i found it to be very entertaning regardless not to mention there was alot of great things about that movie.

THe Danger room scene was sweet, the action scenes were great and i felt it never got stale it was always something going on to keep us hooked,I mean the Golden Gate bridge sequence was awsome , one of the beter action scenes in comic book movie history imo. As well Kelsey GRammar as Beats was great and the character was great as well, i liked how they made Magneto and his brotherhood like terrorist cell and him gathering a huge army for huge battle was great.

Obviously the main things that i thought could have been better was Angel,Colosos being waisted and i really wanted to see Cyclops be more relevant.

I didn't mind Prof X dieing because i felt it really added to the story.

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Old 09-07-2010, 07:39 AM   #9
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

well, like it or not we are getting wolverine 2? Deadpool reboot w/ RR and First Class.

x3 & wolverine are 2 different continuities. Deapool is its own continuity and First Class -x1-x2 are in their own too.

and it all very confusing. but when you look at it all. Its really a money thing. i think that orgins was planned as a tentpole and since it made money despite being a bad movie that leaked on the net. it made money so i guess the contracts and all that have to go foward. not that i understand the movie business. but x-men is a kiddie cash cow.

some people out there actually were entertained by orgins

i mean all 3 wolverine 2, FS & DP films may actually be decent, but orgins really leaves a stain. if it had been a good movie, it could have worked and i would want to see these films.

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Old 09-07-2010, 08:22 AM   #10
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

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Originally Posted by bhayes View Post
some fans are speculating that first class is not rebooting but retconning x3 and orgins.

or is first class a true reboot? and if so how is it that we are getting wolverine 2?

and a reboot of Deadpool with RR?

i have to admit we are all confused as am I.

can someone help me please. we need a authentic reboot. why is FOX torturing us like this!
You're overthinking it, but that's a common illness on here.

All four of the existing films are in the same continuity, even with the variations, differing interpretations and disparities.

Wolverine - which I enjoyed but is admittedly the weakest instalment so far, mainly because it had nothing to say, no theme or purpose - was intended at the time to set up the earlier First Class movie scripted by Josh Schwartz.

Schwartz was reported to have made sure the characters he used matched those at the end of Wolverine. At the time, First Class would have been more of a story about the first familiar students, including Cyclops. But the project seemed to be just a prequel without a clear purpose or message until Singer came along and gave it a 60s setting and made it more about Xavier/Magneto's friendship and rift during the years of the civil rights movement. That gives the story something to say, which is important for any film. But the 60s setting means that Cyclops etc won't be in this.

I have no problem with Singer's ideas as the X-Men comic started in the very year that Martin Luther King delivered his 'I Have A Dream' speech.

The main 'issue' is that the film's title no longer seems very applicable - it has nothing to do with the First Class comic, it isn't the 'first class' implied by the previous films, it doesn't seem to be a classroom-based movie. It is, instead (as far as we know), an earlier 'class' or group of mutants, an unseen chapter in the X-Men's world. It may well show the more familiar faces at the end though. Or it may not. It is possibly about a 'first class' of students who we haven't seen before.

Those who were expecting the original five are being pretty dumb and ridiculous to be honest. The existing films are a big clue that isn't happening, especially as this isn't a reboot. Only Deadpool appears to be a labelled as a reboot, although with the same actor in the part.

Would it work to follow the comics? How many films would we have with the original five, when would Havok and Polaris come in, when would we see Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, etc, what about the later members like Kitty, Psylocke etc?. It would take dozens of movies to match the comic book continuity and its many team line-up changes and complex stories. That's why events are compressed, omitted and rehashed for the big screen.

Remember, we got one previous Batman movie (1989) with Joker before he was killed off (and Penguin, Green Goblin, Doc Ock, all died after one film appearance), and then we got one Nolan movie with Joker before the actor died so there won't be any more Joker. Expecting endless films with the same characters repeating the same stories as the comics is unrealistic and ridiculous.

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Old 09-07-2010, 11:14 AM   #11
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I think they will reboot the origin of the x-men, but not the old filmes (X-men to X3).The big talk around the net is Deadpool movie (argh!) will dont follow the version of Wolverine movie (see the news here), and now you have another Emma Frost in First Class.You have several mutants with the same powers in X-Universe,and make a little sense have twodiamond irl in diferentages (60's in FC and 80's in Wolverine). But i think this is a good idea, but the actual problem in my POV now is, how to show thsiwill be areboot just of the origin, and make the people disconect the links what Origins Wolverine done with the last films? In the end, this "origin reboot" maybe will be confirmated or not with the coming of Wolverine 2 and his plot,because maybe they follow the last film or made a reboot "Incredible Hulk" style.

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Old 09-07-2010, 07:49 PM   #12
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I think its good that Deadpool is distancing it self from the Wolverine movie, besides he only appeared on screen for 10 minutes and i am not even sure he was refered to as Deadpool, just Wade.

So it's not like it's going to really matter if they ignore the origins movie, besides Deadpool isn't a popular enough character, mainstream wise, to really have the average movie goer confused.

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Old 09-08-2010, 07:55 AM   #13
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I could take the Deadpool thing either way. I love the character and I hate what was done with him in Wolverine, but I'd prefer a better route than "meh, Imma ignore that movie" to be taken to correct it. A simple voiceover intro could be used to state what happened to him, and that with Logan's healing factor he survived the final battle, but due to the incomplete power transfer, he ditched most of the other 'dead pool' powers. Get rid of the katanas and have him cut open his mouth, and try to make the Weapon XI debacle be yet another reason for his psychotic personality. It wouldn't be perfect, but I'm sick of continuity having to be overlooked just because of crappy writing in the first place.

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Old 09-08-2010, 11:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

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I could take the Deadpool thing either way. I love the character and I hate what was done with him in Wolverine, but I'd prefer a better route than "meh, Imma ignore that movie" to be taken to correct it. A simple voiceover intro could be used to state what happened to him, and that with Logan's healing factor he survived the final battle, but due to the incomplete power transfer, he ditched most of the other 'dead pool' powers. Get rid of the katanas and have him cut open his mouth, and try to make the Weapon XI debacle be yet another reason for his psychotic personality. It wouldn't be perfect, but I'm sick of continuity having to be overlooked just because of crappy writing in the first place.
The way I saw it, X-Men Origins: Wolverine showed the creature that becomes Deadpool.

I can't see it working for the character to have been quipping and talking to the camera throughout the final battle with Wolverine/Sabretooth.

Although what happened was no doubt the biggest deviation yet from the comics in the X-Men films, there is scope to link the Wolverine and Deadpool films and show the character evolving into familiar comic book form.

As you say, a brief voiceover could explain it. It could mention how he was experimented on a secret lab into a 'dead pool' of different DNA and mutations and lost his head - then found it again. Once his eyes returned to normal and his body rejected the adamantium implants, he decided Deadpool was a cool name after all...

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Old 09-08-2010, 11:35 AM   #15
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I can't see it working for the character to have been quipping and talking to the camera throughout the final battle with Wolverine/Sabretooth.
Which is why it shouldn't have been Deadpool at the final battle in the first place.

Seriously, there really was no reason to use Deadpool in that role except to reference one line Stryker made about shutting Wade up. We only knew Wade for like 5 minutes. I wouldn't even be surprised if most of the audience forgot about him by final scene. There was no emotional connection that made us feel overwhelmed at the loss of Wade's humanity except for the couple of minutes where he acted like a jokester. And if you pay attention to the plot it suggests Wade is a big douchebag anyway considering he was killing civilians along with Agent Zero and Sabretooth.

Plus Bolt thought that Wade would be the one to come and kill him so it's not like Wade was such an upstanding guy that makes for a tragic figure. Weapon XI should have just been his own character. Or better yet, they should have not used Weapon XI because having Weapon X just be a stepping stone really cheapened Wolverine's origin story in the first place.

Personally, I think they'll just ignore Wolverine or if they're really clever they'll have Deadpool watching X-Men Origins Wolverine in a theater and saying "this sucks."

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Old 09-08-2010, 09:46 PM   #16
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I really have no (major) problems with any of the 4 X-Men films, so I hope that First Class isn't a reboot nor a (major) retcon.

The problems that I really have with the X-Men films are the way certain individual characters were treated, not so much with the overall stories told. And I feel that ALL 4 films are guilty of that, not just the last 2.

However, despite whatever individual characters might not have been portrayed exactly in ways I would have liked, I am satisfied with all 4 films because I feel all of them accurately captured what the real meaning and foundation of the characters and stories are.

Despite some adamantium bullets (which would have been very well explained and dealt with had the original mind wipe scene been kept in), I think that X-Men Origins: Wolverine was an overall accurate adaptation of Logan's origins. I don't think that the added characters detracted from the story, and whatever inconsistencies there were with Singer's hints of Logan's past I believe were minor details (I.E. Logan's Weapon X experiment / escape not matching visually with the flashbacks in X2), moreso than anything that ruined the story.

While, as a fan of the source material I understand the difference in X-Men: The Last Stand's presentation of the Phoenix Saga versus what actually happened in the comics, I still believe that overall, the major elements were true, and I would still argue that whatever intent the writers had, the message that came across was that Jean never returned Logan's love, and it was because of her love for Scott that she wanted to die. And Logan doing what he did to Jean on Alcatraz isn't out of character, even though yes, that should have been Cyclops.

I really hope that Singer and Vaughn don't disregard X-Men: The Last Stand and X-Men Origins: Wolverine, because those movies ARE official canon in the X-Men film franchise. Also, it'd be rather hypocritical. Afterall, Singer was the one who walked from X-Men: The Last Stand (regardless of the circumstances, Singer walked), so really it's on him why there is a different vision. Also, his vision that he established in the first 2 films were respected rather well in the last 2. Whether the stories were underwhelming or not, they remain consistent with the world that Singer established.

I'm not sure that I'm exactly thrilled with the direction X-Men: First Class seems to be taking, as I feel it should revolve around the first class consisting of the Cyclops / Jean Grey / Beast class of X-Men, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt. It can be rather interesting if the purpose of this movie is to show the NEED for the X-Men / Brotherhood to be formed. I'll have to see how this one plays out. I just hope there's no rebooting or retconning.

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Old 09-08-2010, 10:31 PM   #17
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I think Wade being able to talk would've worked, still. Except, instead of making jokes, he could've just taunted Logan and Victor, trying to turn them against one another while they try to keep him still (given the scene on the transport plane, it's clear he knows how to push their buttons). Knowing Reynolds' filmography, I know he doesn't always have to be kidding - in Smoking Aces he was surprisingly not the comedic relief, and in Blade Trinity and Amittyville Horror there were some moments where he could be downright scary - so he definitely could've pulled something off to be a nice middle-ground between the Deadpool we know, and the monster that Stryker wanted to do his bidding.


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Old 09-08-2010, 11:22 PM   #18
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I really hope that Singer and Vaughn don't disregard X-Men: The Last Stand and X-Men Origins: Wolverine, because those movies ARE official canon in the X-Men film franchise. Also, it'd be rather hypocritical. Afterall, Singer was the one who walked from X-Men: The Last Stand (regardless of the circumstances, Singer walked), so really it's on him why there is a different vision. Also, his vision that he established in the first 2 films were respected rather well in the last 2. Whether the stories were underwhelming or not, they remain consistent with the world that Singer established.
It's hypocritical for him to disregard the films that were made while he wasn't involved with the franchise?

And X-Men Origins: Wolverine was far from accurate to the comic origins. It is by far the most boring rendition of Wolverine's story. Pick any X-Men related material and its guaranteed to tell a more exciting rendition of Wolverine's origin. Even the tie in game did a better job. That's sad.

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Old 09-08-2010, 11:53 PM   #19
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It's hypocritical for him to disregard the films that were made while he wasn't involved with the franchise?

And X-Men Origins: Wolverine was far from accurate to the comic origins. It is by far the most boring rendition of Wolverine's story. Pick any X-Men related material and its guaranteed to tell a more exciting rendition of Wolverine's origin. Even the tie in game did a better job. That's sad.
i agree the cinematics captured the essence of the script better than film itself. i think hugh and Co., Fox, Gavin and the whole crew and cast know that they screwed up. i wonder at what point did they realize "wow this movie is terrible"

i still feel like FC could be a reboot. and somehow DP & w2 will get stalled and cancelled somehow. that possible?

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Old 09-09-2010, 02:39 AM   #20
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If that's how you feel you're certainly entitled to it, but I don't share those feelings.

I haven't played the Wolverine game to compare, but X-Men Origins: Wolverine did nothing at all to bore me. And while details were changed (and Deadpool was definitely changed as well), I felt that the foundation of the story was honored.

Logan is a wanderer with no home, gets caught up in shady special ops type missions, used as a scientific experiment, and his life, and the lives of those close to him manipulated for the benefit of those who had power over him. Yes, creative license was taken, but such is the case with any adaptation from one source material to another.

Not saying it was a masterpiece, the movie certainly could have been better, but I highly enjoyed it, save for a few details that I have issue with, but those details aren't anything significant enough to ruin the overall experience, which I thought was a pretty good adaptation from convoluted comic / cartoon storylines to film, while remaining true to what was established in the previous films regarding said story.

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Old 09-09-2010, 11:51 AM   #21
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Go watch any of the cartoons, go read some comics, go play some of the games. Then compare them to the movie and try to argue that Wolverine is by far the most boring interpretation of that story. Those other Wolverines would smack movie Wolverine for being such a whiner because he had it comparatively easy. No element of Wolverine acting like an animal, no element of human beings trying to strip him of his humanity, no element of him being used as a Weapon. They couldn't even get the basic concept of Weapon X right. It's called Weapon X for a reason. They couldn't have messed it up harder if they tried.

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Cyclops is the best superhero in the world. He is, as far as I'm concerned, the Batman. He's been in intensive training since his early teenage years to lead the first-ever mutant rescue and security team. This is a guy who gets up every morning asking himself how he can be better.

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Old 09-09-2010, 11:22 PM   #22
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I have read comics, and my X-Men fandom was started on the animated series of the 90's, so yes, I understand.

I never said that the movie was done as well as it could have been. It absolutely could have been better. What I am saying is that I still enjoyed it, and felt that overall, it remained true to the overall core of the story, even if some (many) of the details were changed.

And you won't convince me otherwise - I've seen the cartoons, read the comics, and I still greatly enjoy all 4 of the movies.

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Old 09-09-2010, 11:50 PM   #23
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And I think X1 and X2 are great while X3 is a mediocre disappointment and Wolverine is pretty much disposable aside from some cool yet pointless cameos. Here's hoping Singer and Vaughn dump those two films because I feel they are anchors on this franchise.

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Cyclops is the best superhero in the world. He is, as far as I'm concerned, the Batman. He's been in intensive training since his early teenage years to lead the first-ever mutant rescue and security team. This is a guy who gets up every morning asking himself how he can be better.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:41 AM   #24
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If Singer or Vaughn came out right now and said that this movie has zero to do with X3 or Wolverine...I would be behind this film 100%...even if Magneto was in drag and Charles was dressed as a pimp.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:41 AM   #25
X-Maniac
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Default Re: Retconn to x3 & Orgins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaseter View Post
If Singer or Vaughn came out right now and said that this movie has zero to do with X3 or Wolverine...I would be behind this film 100%...even if Magneto was in drag and Charles was dressed as a pimp.
That's a very silly standpoint.

This film should be judged as this film.

I find it astonishing you could overlook monstrous deviations simply because it pandered to your own dislike of the previous two instalments.

Yes, you do have an agenda. Yes, it's getting old, but that's because it's true.

Come on, now, be sensible.

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