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Old 11-22-2010, 10:48 PM   #76
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

Nolan's movies are Batman movies. They're just hyper-realistic Batman movies.

It's exactly what the public needed to see after the Schumacher fiascos, a Batman universe that is recognizable enough to keep fans pleased and plausible enough to be acceptable for cynical audiences and critics.

It's not my ideal Batman movie but it was necessary to rebound the franchise. I'm hoping the next reboot will be closer to BTAS and their spot on characterizations of everything from Gotham to Batman himself.

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Old 11-23-2010, 05:00 AM   #77
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Originally Posted by redfirebird2008 View Post
i don't understand why people feel the need to tear down one in order to lift the other up. They're both really damn good and both are valid interpretations of the batman mythology.
amen

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Old 11-24-2010, 07:40 AM   #78
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Because Batman and Batman Returns were such laugh riots, of course.
Nicholson's Joker and DeVito's Penguin did bring the laughs.

I kindasortanotreally agree with the spirit of the opening post. Nolan did a great job in restoring the seriousness of Batman after Schumacher had taken it out into the woods and killed it. But there were some fun elements from Burton's, Timm's and even Schumacher's takes that I felt were missing. Add to that-I've complained about this before-that Nolan's Gotham did nothing but make me nostalgic for my Chicago upbringing. Gotham should be larger than life in a sense. Schumacher took that too far. Nolan scaled it back too far. The pendulum swings out pretty far every time Batman gets revamped. Burton's was deemed too dark & scary, so they bring in Schumacher withthe mandate to give us a kinder, gentler, more kid-freindly Batman; one who can sell Happy Meals. Ultimately Schumacher's vision is deemed too silly, "kiddie-fied" and borderline homoerotic, so Nolan went the opposite direction. Serious & realistic, with some spooky elements but none that were TOO likely to send kids home crying.

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Old 11-24-2010, 07:41 AM   #79
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
Nolan's movies are Batman movies. They're just hyper-realistic Batman movies.

It's exactly what the public needed to see after the Schumacher fiascos, a Batman universe that is recognizable enough to keep fans pleased and plausible enough to be acceptable for cynical audiences and critics.

It's not my ideal Batman movie but it was necessary to rebound the franchise. I'm hoping the next reboot will be closer to BTAS and their spot on characterizations of everything from Gotham to Batman himself.
This.

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Old 11-24-2010, 01:24 PM   #80
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

When BB was coming out, I, like most other people and some former fans, didnt care. "ANOTHER Batman movie, ANOTHER new director and YET ANOTHER new person ion the bat suit". But it did blew me away and I never thought its very different than Burton's movies. For me it was like the right follow up, like going back to that same train of thought - No Robin, and lone, serious and dark Batman.

About the whole realism thing: Nolan's movies get a beating for it rather often because of Goyer's big mouth. People judge those movies and look for the tiniest non-realistic things to rub it in the fans' mouths, all because of Goyer. To quote one website:I judge a movie according to the standards it sets for itself, and the creators of this movie wanted to present an adult, high Art with a capital A, pretentious movie that we should take as seriously as any other arthouse or intellectually sophisticated adult movie out there. This so-called gravitas and unflinching “realism” is exactly what this movie’s fans tell us is so great about it.

Heres the thing tho. Goyer, who is a fine writer and did great with Batman, is a shameful liar and truth spinner. If I was to list all the lies he said about Batman stuff to promote his Bat movies I would spent days to list them and disprove them all (just TWO examples for each:Truth spinning Joker didnt have origins at the beginning - NOBODY had origins in the beginning. Joker was a physical match for Batman in the beginning - EVERYBODY was, every villain kicked Batman's butt. Lies: we're going back to roots..Im not even gonna explain that cause it would take me half an hour to write a response to that. Not to mention "we're faithful to the comics" joke). Its Goyer who said that Nolan's Batman are ultra realistic and the real life stuff, while Nolan only said that theyre trying to "be just a little more grounded in reality". And if one sets such unintentional standards for the movie, people catch on it and challenge it for what its not.

So I thank Goyer for people ragging on TDK and BB for not being 100% realistic

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Old 11-24-2010, 08:40 PM   #81
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Nolan's movies are Batman movies. They're just hyper-realistic Batman movies.
Exactly.

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Old 11-24-2010, 09:05 PM   #82
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I don't know if hyper realistic is the best way to put it.

It's more the illusion of realism. It's a grounded approach that feels real.

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Old 11-24-2010, 09:45 PM   #83
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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I don't know if hyper realistic is the best way to put it.

It's more the illusion of realism. It's a grounded approach that feels real.

Thats right. As I said in a different thread, Chris Nolan's line was always that the movies are a little more grounded in reality, its Goyer and his parrot Jonah that claim that the movies are actually ultra realistic

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Old 11-25-2010, 12:37 AM   #84
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

They aren't more realistic than the 89 Batman movies, that's for sure, if I call a Batman movie realistic that would be the closest one, only unrealistic stuff are:
Joker killing a guy in public with no one trying to arrest him
The Plane blowing up with a bullet from Joker's gun after all the bullets from the jet missing him
City hall accepting the gift of Batman

And it was more of a gangster film than Nolan's Batman

Batman acts as Batman, it's just like watching a live action B:TAS long episode, and I really love that show
Why is it laughable to hear Nolan's Batman is realistic?
How can a guy enter a solitary confinment waiting for a guy he didn't know was going there? And the guards open the door for him when he wants to leave?
Just handing a guy a check doesn't make the property owned by the check giver. At least that wasn't mentioned more than Bruce is nuts
The tumbler needs to be registered, the police can't depend on an ally with no ID and with an unregistered vehicle
Batman would get really exauhsted with all the people he fight when he needs to head to the train to save the city from further madness and death
Harvey's eye would melt in the fire he caught, and his other half of the suit with more skin than just the oil saturated parts would catch on fire
Batman's bones would be crushed from the fall he took near the end of the movie, even with his body armor and Harvey's body cushining him

That being said, I love the movie


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Old 11-25-2010, 12:45 AM   #85
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Aziz;19273936[B
]They aren't more realistic than the 89 Batman movies, that's for sure[/B]
Batman acts as Batman, it's just like watching a live action B:TAS long episode, and I really love that show
Now this is absolutely wrong. It's a far greater sense of realism in Nolan's films than what is in Burton's films. Burton's work prides itself on taking place within the realms of fantasy so that alone should tell you something. On top of this Burton's films were shot 100% on soundstages, it's meant to look like a stylized otherworld whereas Nolan's Gotham is shot mainly in Chicago to even appear realistic and gritty.

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:04 AM   #86
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I belive that The Dark Knight did get alot of the character relationships and aspects right. I feel esp. the relationship with Joker was down to a tee. However I did miss the dark atomphere of the comic that seemed to be left behind for alot of day scenes that where still good but lost the feel of a comic to me. There was a lack of Btman at times to me to however his character did act like batman. Batman has got lonely in his crusade before and did see hope in Dent as a ally as dedicated as he was. Also his moral tension on weither to kill joker is very much like the comics as well as how they play off eachother.

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Old 11-25-2010, 09:32 AM   #87
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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T
The Plane blowing up with a bullet from Joker's gun after all the bullets from the jet missing him
Actually thats plausibly explained in the comic book adaptation


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Old 11-25-2010, 09:45 AM   #88
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

No offense, but comic book adaptions don't count. They change a lot of things in those adaptions. If it's not in the movie then it doesn't count, IMO.

I never did like how Batman's nifty Batwing seemingly missed the Joker when the targeting system zeroed in on him, but Joker's long barrel gun took down the Batwing nicely with one shot.

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Old 11-25-2010, 11:53 AM   #89
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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Thats right. As I said in a different thread, Chris Nolan's line was always that the movies are a little more grounded in reality, its Goyer and his parrot Jonah that claim that the movies are actually ultra realistic
From a Jonathan Nolan interview:
Quote:
"For me the most interesting version of the character is one who was never made at all, just an elemental force. In my imagination, there is no beginning or end to this character, he's kind of always existed. That first frame in Imax, where you see him from behind and he's holding a mask, to me it's as if the moment before that shot he just was conjured out of thin air. Y'know? He's a bit of a devil.

I think The Joker is and always will be. You see different versions of him in every culture, for thousands of years. Different names, Loki, the trickster, Coyote stories in American traditions." [Nolan] then says he found it very appealing how in Batman #1 he had no back story, he was "just there."
The Joker's an elemental force, always been around, is a devil, pops up out of thin air, compared to trickster gods, etc. These aren't the words of someone that's going out of his way to convince people that these films are realistic. I'd say it's quite the opposite, actually.

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Old 11-25-2010, 12:08 PM   #90
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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From a Jonathan Nolan interview:The Joker's an elemental force, always been around, is a devil, pops up out of thin air, compared to trickster gods, etc. These aren't the words of someone that's going out of his way to convince people that these films are realistic. I'd say it's quite the opposite, actually.
Thats why I said "Goyer's parrot", because only when hes around Goyer he yeses him and repeats everything Goyer says. I have tons of quotes from Jonah, Chris and Goyer since 2005 saved in a Word document , and in none of them Chris says his movies are reflecting realism. He always says they lean more towards realism. Bt almost everytime when Jonah is with Goyer Spinner, he confirms that the movies are reflecting realism

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Old 11-25-2010, 12:12 PM   #91
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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No offense, but comic book adaptions don't count. They change a lot of things in those adaptions. If it's not in the movie then it doesn't count, IMO.
I know but they did have the script to work with and extra notes and files (hence they had the access to the deleted scenes and some extra explanations like the one above or why cops didn't interfere with Joker's parade or what was in the laughing bag). Either way, I think the idea of the explosive shell works nicely

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I never did like how Batman's nifty Batwing seemingly missed the Joker when the targeting system zeroed in on him, but Joker's long barrel gun took down the Batwing nicely with one shot.
Well what Batman was shooting with from a very long distance were guns and weapons designed for mass destruction of the enemy forces, such as missiles and the machine gun which is a gun with a very bad aim. Theyre not designed to hit one small target, so I have no issue here at all

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Old 11-25-2010, 12:49 PM   #92
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I can understand Joker's issues with it. It is indeed rather sloppy on a certain level. But the thing is, it's Tim Burton. Tim Burton has stated that he wanted to put cheesy moments in B'89 but they do not work in blockbuster films like they do in movies like Beetlejuice and Pee Wee. For me the very worst part of the movie is the scene with the bat-wing going down- it looks bloody terrible. I use to think it was just outdated but it looked just as awful in 1989. But you know what? Most ppl didn't care because they love Burton's schlock. He is one of the most famous filmmakers on the planet. I hate to break it but he is more loved than Nolan whose work is more down to earth. And I say this is as someone who liked Nolan's last movie far far more than Burton's.

Also saying B'89 is more of a gangster film is flat out laughable. B'89 had a few caricature gangsters that made no difference to the plot whatsoever besides maybe Grissom. And Returns had no mafia style gangsters at all.

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:50 PM   #93
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

the 89 Batman wasnt a full on Burton movie tho. Returns was, but B89 was trying to be more of a conventional movie. I also must agree that the B89 was partially a gangster movie - people wore hats, gangsters wore pinstripe suits, hats and smoked cigars and they used the Al Capone-era gangster guns like the M1928's. Also, Gotham looks like the WWII industrial America. All that was a throwback to the original Kane Batman (like almost everything in B89). Returns was a different beast tho

As for Tim's movies, as someone recently said:This is what made the Burton Batman so great. It took the source material seriously, had the deep psychological stuff for the older fans that take the comics too seriously, and it also had the fun, over the top stuff for the people who grew up on the more fun, pre-80s grim and gritty stuff that came later

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:58 PM   #94
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I love Burton don't get me wrong... his schlock is usually good.

The gangsters in B'89 had more to do with style than the story.

I like the industrial look of 89 but far prefer the expressionistic tones of Returns.

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Old 11-25-2010, 02:22 PM   #95
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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No offense, but comic book adaptions don't count. They change a lot of things in those adaptions. If it's not in the movie then it doesn't count, IMO.

I never did like how Batman's nifty Batwing seemingly missed the Joker when the targeting system zeroed in on him, but Joker's long barrel gun took down the Batwing nicely with one shot.
If small creatures as simple as birds can cause planes to crash like in movies like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and The Edge for example. Which also could happen in real life,btw. So how and why is it so hard to believe that a bullet could take out the Batwing with one shot ?

Planes are very fragile especially the ones that test pilots fly. I've heard stories on the news where a very small plane crashed because of it carrying too much weight inside. Batman's was probably very fragile and the bullet probably hit a vital part of the batwing.That's my view on it.

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Old 11-25-2010, 02:30 PM   #96
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I take the comic book's explanation of an explosive tip bullet

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Old 11-25-2010, 03:55 PM   #97
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I wouldn't count Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade as a good example for explaining something logical. There is a scene in which Indy kills three nazis with a single bullet and it darts through all of them. And the character Donovan turns to skeletal ash after merely sipping from a golden goblet. We won't even discuss the other two(or three).


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Old 11-25-2010, 04:14 PM   #98
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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If small creatures as simple as birds can cause planes to crash like in movies like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and The Edge for example. Which also could happen in real life,btw. So how and why is it so hard to believe that a bullet could take out the Batwing with one shot ?
I haven't seen The Edge, but it took FLOCKS of birds to knock that plane out of the sky. Even then the scene was ridiculous, with Sean Connery sending them flying off into the plane with his umbrella. And wasn't that plane some 1940's relic of a thing? Hardly a good analogy to the Batwing.

Quote:
Planes are very fragile especially the ones that test pilots fly. I've heard stories on the news where a very small plane crashed because of it carrying too much weight inside. Batman's was probably very fragile and the bullet probably hit a vital part of the batwing.That's my view on it.
Not my view on it. We got this whole sequence with how badass and nifty Batman's batwing was. Then Joker pulls out a long barrel gun and takes it out with one shot.

Along with the Prince music, that was one of the silliest scenes in the movie, IMO.

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Old 11-25-2010, 04:44 PM   #99
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

I'm going to have to agree with Joker on this one.

It's meant to be a silly moment, I'm going to look for the quote from Burton. You're not supposed to apply real logic to justify it.

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Old 11-25-2010, 04:49 PM   #100
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Default Re: Anyone else think that nolans movies arent really "Batman movies"?

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I haven't seen The Edge, but it took FLOCKS of birds to knock that plane out of the sky. Even then the scene was ridiculous, with Sean Connery sending them flying off into the plane with his umbrella. And wasn't that plane some 1940's relic of a thing? Hardly a good analogy to the Batwing.



Not my view on it. We got this whole sequence with how badass and nifty Batman's batwing was. Then Joker pulls out a long barrel gun and takes it out with one shot.

Along with the Prince music, that was one of the silliest scenes in the movie, IMO.
As ridiculous as that scene may seem I believe that could really happen. The point I was trying to make was that planes are very fragile including the planes I was describing for those two movies. Afterall that plane in Indy 3 looked like it wouldn't take much to take it down even by a flock of birds as the scene proved later.

Basically I just believe that the Batwing is just very fragile and I don't care how ridiculous that sounds. It works for me.

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