Am I the only one who thought The Dark Knight wasn't a Batman film?

[eledoremassis02]

It's been bothering me because The Dark Knight has seemed to taken the "quintessential" Batman postilion.

My problem watching it was that I felt there wasn't much Batman in it at all.

I saw it like this:

Bruce could not handle being Batman and Lucius Fox did most if not all the work (It almost felt like a McGinnis/Old man Wayne). I know he supplies the stuff but it seems like he even think for Batman

And a guy who dresses up as the Joker who is the most organized planned out "wild card" and then he plays mind games with Two-face who's character almost seemed thrown in at the very last moment.

Also I think the light cave didn't help.

Basically; Batman could not handle being Batman, Guy has to paint jokers face on in order to be him, Harvey dent was a waste (though to be fair Batman forever wasted him a lot more), and Alfreds "you have to be Batman!", and the Batcave is a room filled with lights


I feel that a lot of people jumped on it because it was new and this is being seen now with Spider-man. It as if they don't have their own options anymore (hence having to say "I like [insert any movie character] they were almost as good as Heath Ledgers Joker!" This is also similar to everyone saying "Heaths Joker is so faithful to the comics" and then saying "Oh, it was an interpretation"

Don't get me wrong it was a good film and Heath Ledger did a convincing job playing a madman, but I didn't feel that he was the joker. I think they missed most of the characters with the exception of two-face.

In all I think there are other Batman films that portray the character better and should be given the "ultimate Batman title"

Just wanted to know if anyone else feels the same way.

[SuperFerret]

If you're looking for a movie where Batman is the be-all, end-all (which considering that he's the most boring character in his mythos, I know I'm not), watch Batman Begins.

[GothamAlleys]

A number of minutes that Batman is shown onscreen doesnt mean ANYTHING at all. Its the presence and the strength of the performance thats important. Batman may be onscreen for 60 minutes but be unconvincing and not interesting or he may be in the movie for a minute and burn a lasting impression in out brain

Of course everyone likes different things, but if you're bothered by the changes then fair must be fair - you must be bothered by changes in all Batman movies. All Bat movies aside from maybe the 89 original, have significant and numerous changes, and thats good. If they were limited by being faithful to the comic books it wouldve been terribly limiting. I look at whats good, not whats faithful because those are 2 different things.

Joker might have been quite different but why repeat something that has been done before in both the original movie and the animated series? Why not show something new and not do the same, put a new spin on the character, show him through a new prism.

And I thought Batman was great and sold me the character of someone who was just about to have a normal life but had to face the biggest challenge so far very well

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by eledoremassis02

My problem watching it was that I felt there wasn't much Batman in it at all.

He's in it as much as he is in Batman Begins. Someone here actually timed the minutes in each one. And that's just Batman screen time, not Bruce Wayne's scenes.

Bruce could not handle being Batman

In what way? That he faced a moral crisis when The Joker was killing people in his name, and he wanted to quit to stop any further blood being on his hands?

He's quit for much lesser reasons than that. Two examples from BTAS that you should be familiar with are the episode, I am the Night, where he was fed up with constantly fighting a losing battle with the crime in Gotham. Then Jim Gordon gets shot in a drug raid Batman is late to show up for. He blames himself, and quits being Batman.
In Mask of the Phantasm, when Andrea comes back into his life, he intends to quit being Batman after they rekindle their relationship and settle down with her like he intended to years ago. Even Alfred encourages him to do so.

In TDK, he never actually quit. Wanting to, and doing it are two different things. Should we chastise Peter Parker and Clark Kent for doing the same thing, too?

and Lucius Fox did most if not all the work (It almost felt like a McGinnis/Old man Wayne). I know he supplies the stuff but it seems like he even think for Batman

Lucius provided the gadgets. Bruce used them. Bruce even re-engineered the sonar tech to locate the Joker.

Should we give all credit to Q in the James Bond movies for being the real hero instead of Bond himself?

And a guy who dresses up as the Joker who is the most organized planned out "wild card" and then he plays mind games with Two-face

The Joker is a very well organized criminal who's pulled off some of the biggest and most intricate schemes ever. He doesn't get ranked as Batman's number one foe just because he's crazy and kills people. If that's all it took then Zasaz would be a serious contender for the top spot.

Harvey dent was a waste (though to be fair Batman forever wasted him a lot more)

How was Harvey a waste? He had a prominent story through the whole movie.

and Alfreds "you have to be Batman!", and the Batcave is a room filled with lights

It wasn't a Batcave, it was bunker. Alfred being a moral compass for Batman? Wow, what an unheard of concept. Alfred never ever lectures Bruce about right and wrong.

I feel that a lot of people jumped on it because it was new and this is being seen now with Spider-man.

Your first remark makes no sense. Since when does being new make a movie great to the masses? Second, what has Spider-Man got to do with this?

It as if they don't have their own options anymore (hence having to say "I like [insert any movie character] they were almost as good as Heath Ledgers Joker!" This is also similar to everyone saying "Heaths Joker is so faithful to the comics" and then saying "Oh, it was an interpretation"

I don't know what's worse, the fact that you practically accused millions of people of being mindless conformist sheep, or that I'm part of of those masses you're labeling this because I'm a part of the big TDK fan base.

In all I think there are other Batman films that portray the character better and should be given the "ultimate Batman title"

Given the radical changes made to Batman in the previous franchise, I'm very eager to hear which movie you consider to be the "ultimate Batman title" and why.

Spare no expense with the details, please

[eledoremassis02]

He's in it as much as he is in Batman Begins. Someone here actually timed the minutes in each one. And that's just Batman screen time, not Bruce Wayne's scenes.

Batman wasn't there in a character sense. He just mopped around.

In what way? That he faced a moral crisis when The Joker was killing people in his name, and he wanted to quit to stop any further blood being on his hands?

He's quit for much lesser reasons than that. Two examples from BTAS that you should be familiar with are the episode, I am the Night, where he was fed up with constantly fighting a losing battle with the crime in Gotham. Then Jim Gordon gets shot in a drug raid Batman is late to show up for. He blames himself, and quits being Batman.
In Mask of the Phantasm, when Andrea comes back into his life, he intends to quit being Batman after they rekindle their relationship and settle down with her like he intended to years ago. Even Alfred encourages him to do so.

In TDK, he never actually quit. Wanting to, and doing it are two different things. Should we chastise Peter Parker and Clark Kent for doing the same thing, too?

True, but people do blame at least Peter Parker for moping the same way Bruce Wayne was in The Dark Knight. As well it is true in TAS but he wanted to quit because he could not stop it. In The Dark Knight there was no blood on his hands, and if it was so bad then why did he take the rap for killing dent?!

Lucius provided the gadgets. Bruce used them. Bruce even re-engineered the sonar tech to locate the Joker.

Should we give all credit to Q in the James Bond movies for being the real hero instead of Bond himself?

Yes I stated that and gave him credit but he pretty much thought for Bruce and even had to calm him down..again it reminded me more of old man Wayne and terry, you know teaching how to be Batman.

The Joker is a very well organized criminal who's pulled off some of the biggest and most intricate schemes ever. He doesn't get ranked as Batman's number one foe just because he's crazy and kills people. If that's all it took then Zasaz would be a serious contender for the top spot.

Yes that is the Joker. But The Dark Knight Joker was played as sporadic and wild...of which organization is not.

How was Harvey a waste? He had a prominent story through the whole movie.

Harvey was practically the main character until he became Two-Face..then he was shoved away, this was a main complaint amongst many people. They could of at least given him the boat plot..I know Joker did it in the comics but it fit Two-Face more.

It wasn't a Batcave, it was bunker. Alfred being a moral compass for Batman? Wow, what an unheard of concept. Alfred never ever lectures Bruce about right and wrong.

Yes it was a Bunker, but they could of made it look more like a bunker. A light room just didn't fit the character. Alfred does lectures Bruce about right and wrong but does try to convince Bruce to lead a normal life (Mask of the Phantasm/89). He is reassured by Bruce being batman because he could have been a criminal, but The Dark Knight Alfred does not express that. He reminds me of a football dad who's son wants to quit the game.

Your first remark makes no sense. Since when does being new make a movie great to the masses? Second, what has Spider-Man got to do with this?

Spider-man fits perfectly and explains it. Everyone are now bashing Rami even the ones who claimed Spider-Man 1 was so close to the comics. Now they are bashing the suits, the amount of CG, and pretty much everything else. The same happened to Batman. We even saw this with the Crow when there were plans to reboot it. The reason why is because it's new so everyone has to see it and then they are afraid to express their real opinion so then everyone likes it.

I don't know what's worse, the fact that you just accused millions of people of being mindless conformist sheep, or that you're also calling me that because I'm a part of the big TDK fan base.

Yes there is such things as conformist sheep that is pretty much what a trend is. What separates the sheep from the true fans is appreciation. Those who like what they like because of their own reason. The sheep are the ones who have to complain about the old things being dull because they are not new or popular.

Given the radical changes made to Batman in the previous franchise, I'm very eager to hear which movie you consider to be the "ultimate Batman title" and why.

Spare no expense with the details, please

Honestly, to me, I would say Mask of the Phantasm because he his dark, has some edge, but is also human. It's realistic but still fictional. If you think Dark Knight is the "ultimate batman" then go ahead, just as long as you appreciate it. I understand that everyone had opinions, as long as it's theirs then I have no problem. As stated, I feel that this movie got the character (besides Two Face wrong). If they want to develop it then it's fine, if it's not comic accurate then no big deal. The movie just lays flat with the characters.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by eledoremassis02

Batman wasn't there in a character sense. He just mopped around.

In between taking down Scarecrow, raiding Hong Kong, saving Rachel and Dent from the Joker at the party, hunting the Joker through clues from shattered bullets, interrogating the underworld (Maroni), protecting Dent from Joker in the epic armored car chase, facing off against Joker in the interrogation room, desperately trying to save Rachel, protecting Reese from a rabid Gotham, saving the hospital staff hostages, capturing Joker, and saving Gordon's son.

Yes, besides all of that, Batman moped

True, but people do blame at least Peter Parker for moping the same way Bruce Wayne was in The Dark Knight.

What do you mean blame him the same way? As in the mope for the same reasons?

As well it is true in TAS but he wanted to quit because he could not stop it. In The Dark Knight there was no blood on his hands, and if it was so bad then why did he take the rap for killing dent?!

There was no blood on his hands in BTAS either. But the Joker WAS killing people because of Batman's presence in Gotham. "Batman must take off his mask and turn himself in. Every day he doesn't, people will die".

He took the rap for Dent to save the hope of Gotham.

The final monologue that Commissioner Gordon brings the themes from Batman Begins to their logical conclusion: Namely, that as a man, Bruce Wayne’s powers to evil crime are rather limited. As a man, he can be corrupted, he can be killed, and ultimately, he can be defeated. As a symbol he can become far more, and at the end of The Dark Knight, he becomes, to society, an uncontainable force in very much the same way the Joker was. He becomes hunted, making people believe that he cannot be controlled, that he has lost all respect for societal norms and the rule of law. As Gordon realizes he needs to blame the murders on Batman, he acknowledges not only the need for society to push their fears onto something, but their hopes as well (which he allows them to do by preserving Dent’s good name).

In order to keep from tearing itself to shreds, society needs to believe in the incorruptibility of good and the relative remoteness of evil. The Dark Knight points us to ways in which we cope with this need.

http://www.slashfilm.com/assessing-t...e-dark-knight/

Yes I stated that and gave that credit but he pretty much thought for him and even had to calm him down..again it reminded me more of old man Wayne and terry.

When did Lucius have to calm Batman down?

Yes that is the Joker. But The Dark Knight Joker was played as sporadic and wild...of which organized is not.

You're contradicting yourself. You initially said Joker in TDK was the most organized planned out wild card. Now you're saying he's sporadic and wild, and not organized?

TDK Joker was a wild card, organized, and he was sporadic. This was most evident in his attitude change towards Batman. He initially wanted Batman out of the way. But then he came to love the challenge Batman presented him, and he changed position, and wanted to keep Batman around. Even going so far as to protecting his identity from being spilled on TV by Reese.

Harvey was practically the main character until he became Two-Face..then he was shoved away, this was a main complaint amongst many people. They could of at least given him the boat plot..I know Joker did it in the comics but it fit Two-Face more.

Two Face isn't into mind games like that. Joker's all about the mind games. What he tried to do with the ferries falls in line with what he did The Killing Joke, where he tried to prove everyone was as bad as him deep down. Except in TDK he did it to dozens of people, instead of one person.





Two Face is more a revenge villain, which is exactly what he was all about when he became Two Face. Even before Joker came to visit him in the hospital, he promised Gordon that he wasn't sorry, not yet anyway.

Yes it was a Bunker, but they could of made it look more like a bunker. A light room just didn't fit the character.

DC comics disagree with you since they've adapted it into the comics, and there's been no complaints from readers so far.

Alfred never ever lectures Bruce about right and wrong but does try to convince Bruce to lead a normal life (Mask of the Phantasm).

Alfred oftens lectures Bruce about right and wrong, and the moral implications of decisions he takes, and choices he faces etc.

If you'll recall, Bruce asked Alfred's advice: "People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do?".

He is reassured by Bruce being batman because he could have been a criminal, but The Dark Knight Alfred does not express that. He reminds me of a football dad who's done wants to quit the game.

How did you come to that conclusion, when Alfred blatantly tells Bruce he should NOT quit. "Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can make the choice that no one else can make. The right choice. Gotham needs you"

Spider-man fits perfectly and explains it.

Fits perfectly with what and explains what?

Everyone are now bashing Rami even the ones who claimed Spider-Man 1 was so close to the comics. Now they are bashing the suits, the amount of CG, and pretty much everything else. The same happened to Batman. We even saw this with the Crow when there were plans to reboot it. The reason why is because it's new so everyone has to see it and then they are afraid to express their real opinion so then everyone likes it.

I think you'll recall Sam Raimi has been getting severe criticisms ever since Spider-Man 3 was released, and fans have never gotten over what a let down it was.

I can't speak for The Crow.

You can't blame Nolan's Batman just because it's one of, if not the most highly regarded superhero franchise there is. That's just weak.

Yes there is such things as conformist sheep that is pretty much what a trend is. What separates the sheep from the true fans is appreciation. Those who like what they like because of their own reason. The sheep are the ones who have to complain about the old things being dull because they are not new or popular.

I know such people exist. But if you think that conformist mentality applies to the majority of the TDK fan base, then you are in extreme denial. Are you so ignorant that you have to label thousands of fans mindless drone bandwagon hoppers just because they don't share your opinion?

Honestly, to me, I would say Mask of the Phantasm because he his dark, has some edge, but is also human. It's realistic but still fictional.

You mean the movie that is over 50% love story, where Bruce wants to throw in the towel just to be with Andrea again?

Don't get wrong, I love MOTP. But a lot of things you complained about above apply to this movie, too. I won't even comment on the realistic remark you made lol.

If you think Dark Knight is the "ultimate batman" then go ahead, just as long as you appreciate it. I understand that everyone had opinions, as long as it's theirs then I have no problem.

That's fine. I just find it unfair that you label the fan masses of it as conformist sheep, especially when you have no basis for such a claim.

I know we're in the midst of another Nolan Batman movie frenzy with TDKR, so I'm wondering is that what prompted you to make this thread?

[Happy Jack]

It was just as much a Batman story as Begins. You might not like what was done in the film in terms of characterization (when dealing with 70 years of mythos it's literally impossible to please everyone) but to say it was not a Batman film is to miss the point.

[eledoremassis02]

In between taking down Scarecrow, raiding Hong Kong, saving Rachel and Dent from the Joker at the party, hunting the Joker through clues from shattered bullets, interrogating the underworld (Maroni), protecting Dent from Joker in the epic armored car chase, facing off against Joker in the interrogation room, desperately trying to save Rachel, protecting Reese from a rabid Gotham, saving the hospital staff hostages, capturing Joker, and saving Gordon's son.

Yes, besides all of that, Batman moped

Yes..

What do you mean blame him the same way? As in the mope for the same reasons?

They are blamed him the same way because he has human problems and takes and puts alot of fault on himself. That fits Spider-man more.

There was no blood on his hands in BTAS either. But the Joker WAS killing people because of Batman's presence in Gotham. "Batman must take off his mask and turn himself in. Every day he doesn't, people will die".

He took the rap for Dent to save the hope of Gotham.

The main difference is in the TAS is that if Batman showed up a bit earlyer he could have prevented it.

When did Lucius have to calm Batman down?

When Batman was going to set up cameras over the whole city to monitor everyone.

Yes that is the Joker. But The Dark Knight Joker was played as sporadic and wild...of which organized is not.

Yes that's good for the comics, The comics also reflected the 66 series.

Two Face isn't into mind games like that. Joker's all about the mind games. What he tried to do with the ferries falls in line with what he did The Killing Joke, where he tried to prove everyone was as bad as him deep down. Except in TDK he did it to dozens of people, instead of one person.

I already stated this. Sorry but two boats, two types of people in society on opposites boats..screams Two-face.. Not too mention this is what Alan Moore said about his killing joke

“clumsy, misjudged, and [devoid of] real human importance.”

He looses the essence of the character.

DC comics disagree with you since they've adapted it into the comics, and there's been no complaints from readers so far.

Yes, and the 60's Batman was reflected in the comics and had a decent run.

Alfred oftens lectures Bruce about right and wrong, and the moral implications of decisions he takes, and choices he faces etc.

If you'll recall, Bruce asked Alfred's advice: "People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do?".

This was a miss post. I meant that he does often lectures Bruce about right and wrong.

How did you come to that conclusion, when Alfred blatantly tells Bruce he should NOT quit. "Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can make the choice that no one else can make. The right choice. Gotham needs you"

Yes, that quote shows that Alfred rather see him as Batman than care about his well being.
"I have no wish to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons."

"Alfred Pennyworth: Miss Vale called again. Dare I suggest that your present course of action might simply strengthen her resolve. She is quite tenacious.
Bruce Wayne: You're right about that.
Alfred Pennyworth: And if I may say so, quite special. Perhaps you could try telling her the truth. "

(matchmaking a bit)
I've noticed that there is a
certain weight that lifts when
she's here.

BRUCE
Why don't you marry her, Alfred?

ALFRED
That's not exactly what I had in
mind, sir.


Batman 89
___

"Vengeance blackens the soul, Bruce. I've always feared that you would become that which you fought against. You walk the edge of that abyss every night, but you haven't fallen in and I thank heaven for that. " Batman MOTP

I think you'll recall Sam Raimi has been getting severe criticisms ever since Spider-Man 3 was released, and fans have never gotten over what a let down it was.

I can't speak for The Crow.

You can't blame Nolan's Batman just because it's one of, if not the most highly regarded superhero franchise there is. That's just weak.

Spider-man reboot explains this mass shift of opinion. People rightfully hated and bashed 3..but as I explained; everything is wrong with Rami's spider-man. Everything from the suit to the CG.

I know such people exist. But if you think that conformist mentality applies to the majority of the TDK fan base, then you are in extreme denial. Are you so ignorant that you have to label thousands of fans mindless drone bandwagon hoppers just because they don't share your opinion?

No, what I said is if you genually appreciate the film than there is no problem. But the people who like the film because it's new are sheep. Why is it so bad to say this for the dark knight but ok for Avatar..

You mean the movie that is over 50% love story, where Bruce wants to throw in the towel just to be with Andrea again?

Don't get wrong, I love MOTP. But a lot of things you complained about above apply to this movie, too. I won't even comment on the realistic remark you made lol.

Yes, but it's the way it's used. Batman wants to quick because he's becoming happy. He doesn't set up becoming a "symbol" and then backing down when things get too heavy. Same can be said for Batman Returns. When Batman see's a challenge such as the one in Dark Knight, he does not give up but tried to overcome it. That is one reason why Joker is his ultimate foe.

That's fine. I just find it unfair that you label the fan masses of it as conformist sheep, especially when you have no basis for such a claim.

I know we're in the midst of another Nolan Batman movie frenzy with TDKR, so I'm wondering is that what prompted you to make this thread?

The people I am talking about are the ones who rave about films like Batman 89 being so great and so close to the comics, and then saying The Dark Knight is so great and so close to the comics. Yes the batman story is a long one and there are many interpretations. Some good and some bad, some that don't get the characters right. I see it this way with he films as well. I feel the Dark missed something. This is why I didn't put this in the Dark Knight section (SHH did) because I didn't want to offend anyone because I am sure most of the people on this site actually appreciate it. I just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with me that this filmed miss something to make it feel like Batman. But I see it very similar to the Avatar base; there are people who really appreciate what it brings and some who hopped on the bandwagon because it was "cool" and "new".

I waited to post because I have felt this way since I first saw the film. I waited because I knew no one would agree and didn't feel like getting into an argument over my opinion. Speaking of, this is my last post in this thread because I made this to see if anyone else felt the same way.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by eledoremassis02

Yes..

I'm assuming that's sarcasm, because as you see he hardly moped at all. In fact the only scenes he actually flat out brooded was after Rachel died. Apart from that he was a pro active character.

They are blamed him the same way because he has human problems and takes and puts alot of fault on himself. That fits Spider-man more.

Whereas Batman has inhuman problems? He doesn't feel guilt, sorrow, loss, pressure, loneliness. He's an unfeeling machine?

The only difference between Peter and Bruce is that Bruce doesn't have to worry about the mundane problems Peter has like keeping a job and the money problems associated with it.

Bruce worries for friends and loved ones. Bruce suffers relationship problems and heart break. Bruce suffered loss. Bruce feels lonely. Bruce feels sorrow. Bruce feels guilt. He's every bit as human as Peter. Peter is just more relate able because he's an every day average person like most people, not a millionaire.

The main difference is in the TAS is that if Batman showed up a bit earlyer he could have prevented it.

No, he couldn't have, because the whole thing was a set up. The Jazz Man was waiting for them. Batman didn't know, and he got there late because he was side tracked stopping another crime.

It wasn't his fault.

When Batman was going to set up cameras over the whole city to monitor everyone.

Lucius didn't do anything there. Batman had already set in a self destruct code for the whole thing as soon as they were done using it to stop Joker. That's why he told Lucius to type in his name when he was finished. That's what triggered the self destruct device.

Batman never had any intention of keeping it.

Yes that's good for the comics

And the movies, too.

The comics also reflected the 66 series.

That depends which era of the comics you're talking about. Every decade is different. There's nothing in these movies based off the 66 series, or the comics that inspired that show.

I already stated this. Sorry but two boats, two types of people in society on opposites boats..screams Two-face

That's your basis for it? Two boats and two sets of people? You're blatantly ignoring the whole psychology behind it.

Not too mention this is what Alan Moore said about his killing joke He looses the essence of the character.

Tim Burton thinks Batman '89 is boring. Does that mean Batman '89 is suddenly rendered ineffectual? No. The Killing Joke is one of the most popular and successful Batman stories of all time. It's also one of the most referenced stories, always getting homages in the Batman comics. It's a landmark story, and widely considered the greatest Joker story of all time.

Alan Moore is his own worst critic.

Yes, and the 60's Batman was reflected in the comics and had a decent run.

You keep mentioning 60's Batman like it has any kind of relevance to these movies. It doesn't.

This was a miss post. I meant that he does often lectures Bruce about right and wrong.

Good. Then you have no problem with TDK Alfred then.

Yes, that quote shows that Alfred rather see him as Batman than care about his well being.

How the heck does it show that? He's supporting him in his crusade as Batman. You know, the thing he spent years training and preparing for?

He knows as well as Rachel did that Bruce will never give it up. Encouraging him to throw in the towel would show he doesn't care about him. Lets face it, life would be so much easier for him if Bruce wasn't Batman.

"I have no wish to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons."

"Alfred Pennyworth: Miss Vale called again. Dare I suggest that your present course of action might simply strengthen her resolve. She is quite tenacious.
Bruce Wayne: You're right about that.
Alfred Pennyworth: And if I may say so, quite special. Perhaps you could try telling her the truth. "

(matchmaking a bit)
I've noticed that there is a
certain weight that lifts when
she's here.

BRUCE
Why don't you marry her, Alfred?

ALFRED
That's not exactly what I had in
mind, sir.


Batman 89

"Vengeance blackens the soul, Bruce. I've always feared that you would become that which you fought against. You walk the edge of that abyss every night, but you haven't fallen in and I thank heaven for that. " Batman MOTP

And Alfred stood up and looked out for Bruce and Batman all through TDK. He even protected him from learning the harsh truth that Rachel wasn't going to wait for him like he thought.

Spider-man reboot explains this mass shift of opinion. People rightfully hated and bashed 3..but as I explained; everything is wrong with Rami's spider-man. Everything from the suit to the CG.

You're exaggerating. I frequent the Spider-Man forums, and have done since 2003. Spider-Man 1, and especially Spider-Man 2 are still held in high regard.

No, what I said is if you genually appreciate the film than there is no problem. But the people who like the film because it's new are sheep.

People who like any movie just because it's new are sheep. Have you got some solid proof that shows there is some kind of mass numbers that indicate there's this kind of sheep mentality with this movie?

Why is it so bad to say this for the dark knight but ok for Avatar..

That flies in the face of your theory, doesn't it, since Avatar is much more new than TDK is.

Yes, but it's the way it's used. Batman wants to quick because he's becoming happy. He doesn't set up becoming a "symbol" and then backing down when things get too heavy.

MOTP's is worse than that! He's quitting when Gotham City is over flowing with freaks spilling out of the walls of Arkham! And he's doing it just because his old flame came back into town.

Bruce in TDK is doing it because of the mass slaughter on his conscience. He's being selfless by quitting in order to stop further slaughter in his name. Although he doesn't actually end up quitting.

Since we're drawing comparisons here, Bruce in MOTP is a seasoned pro by now having been Batman for years, and living in a Gotham City way more dangerous and in need of a Batman than the early years Gotham of TDK with a still inexperienced Batman who's never faced a foe like the Joker before.

Same can be said for Batman Returns.

No, it can't. He never wanted to quit in Returns.

When Batman see's a challenge such as the one in Dark Knight, he does not give up but tried to overcome it. That is one reason why Joker is his ultimate foe.

And he didn't quit, did he? Not even for a second. So you've got no problem. If you're persecuting a character for having guilt and self doubt, then I suggest you invest yourself in a hero more devoid of human emotion.

The people I am talking about are the ones who rave about films like Batman 89 being so great and so close to the comics, and then saying The Dark Knight is so great and so close to the comics. Yes the batman story is a long one and there are many interpretations. Some good and some bad, some that don't get the characters right. I see it this way with he films as well. I feel the Dark missed something. This is why I didn't put this in the Dark Knight section (SHH did) because I didn't want to offend anyone because I am sure most of the people on this site actually appreciate it. I just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with me that this filmed miss something to make it feel like Batman. But I see it very similar to the Avatar base; there are people who really appreciate what it brings and some who hopped on the bandwagon because it was "cool" and "new".

I don't find that argument entirely convincing. Especially after reading through what your criticisms actually are. Every one of your complaints that I've addressed can either be directed at Batman movies you support, or are just flat out false.

I waited to post because I have felt this way since I first saw the film. I waited because I knew no one would agree and didn't feel like getting into an argument over my opinion. Speaking of, this is my last post in this thread because I made this to see if anyone else felt the same way.

Fair enough.

[Grayson]

I hope there aren't many people who feel the same as you.
The Batcave was a room full of lights because Wayne Manor was being built. It was a reasonable substitute.
This is a story of Batman reaching his apex. He's not fully experienced just yet, so yeah, he does require some help from Lucius Fox.
Heath Ledger humanized the Joker. If a psychopathic clown hellbent on destroying the soul of a city existed, what you saw in TDK is what you'd get. This trilogy is shaping up to be one of the best takes on Batman, in all forms of media.
Honestly.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by eledoremassis02

It's been bothering me because The Dark Knight has seemed to taken the "quintessential" Batman postilion.

My problem watching it was that I felt there wasn't much Batman in it at all.

I saw it like this:

Bruce could not handle being Batman and Lucius Fox did most if not all the work (It almost felt like a McGinnis/Old man Wayne). I know he supplies the stuff but it seems like he even think for Batman

And a guy who dresses up as the Joker who is the most organized planned out "wild card" and then he plays mind games with Two-face who's character almost seemed thrown in at the very last moment.

Also I think the light cave didn't help.

Basically; Batman could not handle being Batman, Guy has to paint jokers face on in order to be him, Harvey dent was a waste (though to be fair Batman forever wasted him a lot more), and Alfreds "you have to be Batman!", and the Batcave is a room filled with lights


I feel that a lot of people jumped on it because it was new and this is being seen now with Spider-man. It as if they don't have their own options anymore (hence having to say "I like [insert any movie character] they were almost as good as Heath Ledgers Joker!" This is also similar to everyone saying "Heaths Joker is so faithful to the comics" and then saying "Oh, it was an interpretation"

Don't get me wrong it was a good film and Heath Ledger did a convincing job playing a madman, but I didn't feel that he was the joker. I think they missed most of the characters with the exception of two-face.

In all I think there are other Batman films that portray the character better and should be given the "ultimate Batman title"

Just wanted to know if anyone else feels the same way.

I feel the same way. While I don't agree with all your points, I do agree with most. I'm there with ya man.

[Fudgie]

TDK is the best Batman flick yet

[Lando81]

This thread is fail.

[Ponyboy]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

TDK is the best Batman flick yet

That's a matter of opinion...

but to address eledoremassis02's original point...

You're forgetting Nolan's take on the character is covering the "early days" of Batman. Bruce Wayne hasn't yet gotten to the point where being Batman has totally consumed him. He's still learning. He still has hope that Gotham won't need Batman forever... We of course know what lies in his future... he's always Batman, always will have to be, and his war on crime is never-ending.

[theman]

i also agree, TDK didnt really feel like a batman film. it was an elongated episode of CSI or law and order with batman in it, and some action scenes thrown in, mainly with the batpod. its funny how ppl love to say batman returns isnt a batman film when its obvious it is just by watching it. its got all the ingredients. it FELT like batma, the whole look and atmosphere. this film....just didnt. i tried to like it but i kept thinking, B89 is still tons better. more fun, and didnt take itself quite as serious. the batcave thing was dissapointing, what did they call it, the bat bunker? LOL. please. it looked likke batman was building a walmart in his basement. the suit rack was cool but thats it. just a waste. its like, wheres the set gonna be built? oh this IS the set. wow, terrible plain design. joker....an anarchist? wha? terrorist? i never heard joker refered to in those terms. to me joker should be....joker! clown prince of crime! i dont know, this batman was too different for me. i prefer the classic comics looking version. the batsuit looked like crap too, it was like robocop batman, even worse actually.

the whole design of the film was just terrible, and the "plot" made my head spin trying to figure it out. and the whole thing with joker "planning" to be caught was so unbelievable. all that drama just to get caught? it was too perfect, and hard for me to believe.

well, heres a review that i guess sums up my feelings (i didnt make it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAuCmmtwHKs

[Lando81]

Alright, why did you decide to bring this horrendous thread back? TDK IS A BATMAN MOVIE. HE'S THE F@#$ING DARK KNIGHT. Can someone with any sort of decency close this thread please?

[Paste Pot Pete]

This thread makes me want to stab bunnies in the neck.

[El Payaso]

Originally Posted by Lando81

This thread is fail.

It is fail just when people refuse how to discuss properly.

I think TDK was a Batman movie and one of the best at that.

[Rockerartist]

I think Nolan kinda made this about the idea of a dark knight itself. and i can kinda understand where the idea of this not being a batman film comes from. The movie was about the idea of someone doing things NOT heroic and being heroic. I remember Alfred said something about Bruce not being a hero..that could be the entire theme of the movie. Dent was the White Knight, who wanted to do things clean and solid, but had a dark side he hid away, until a little push by the Joker drove him to vengeance. Batman never was seen as the heroic figure Dent was, and used torture to attempt to extract information from the Joker, and used Fox's sonar concept to spy on the citizens of Gotham AND he lied about Dents actions...yet he ultimately ended doing the most good out of all the characters. Even Gordon used deception to save himself and his family and ultimately capture the Joker. The movie wasn't about Batman versus the Joker, the movie was a philosophical examination of what is more important, being heroic or being right. Just my long two cents

[The Red Hood]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

If you're looking for a movie where Batman is the be-all, end-all (which considering that he's the most boring character in his mythos, I know I'm not), watch Batman Begins.

The Batman IS the most interesting and compelling character in his mythos. He IS the mythos.

The only reason people seem to have your misguided and incorrect "interpretation" these days is because villains have been romanticized, especially in comic book films. And this is true in comics as well, but when it comes to Batman in comics, it's always been clear that he's a hero and he's the heart of it all.

If you want a less "boring" character, i.e., you want a non-character, try Marvel. Most, if not all, of their comics are populated with such characters.

And don't post this kind of insanity, either. It just makes you appear trollish and not a little idiotic.

[SuperFerret]

[The Morningstar]

I have to agree with Superferret. Bruce Wayne isn't even the most interesting Batman, Dick Grayson is.

And I don't understand this criticism of Marvel characters. How is someone like Peter Parker or Tony Stark "non characters"?

[The Red Hood]

^^^You've destroyed any credibility you might have had by saying Grayson is the most interesting Batman. The carnie is an okay character, but his origin pales in comparison to that of most comic book characters and he's never going to be anything but "Robin I as an adult."

He won't be Batman permanently, which will thankfully lead to so-called "Batman fans" who like him to leave the books in droves.

[The Morningstar]

Ok i'm not sure I want any credibility with you if this your attitude.

I just find Dick more interesting. He has actually developed and grown as a character. Bruce Wayne, until Morrison came along, didn't have any development for years. In fact, I'd go as far as saying he became a parody of himself. The whole sour Bat God douche bag routine and ridiculous prep time feats became his thing, instead of being an actual three dimensional character.

And I've been reading Batman comics since the early 80s so i'm not a bandwagoner or whatever you want to assume.

[truth]

Don't hate me for this, but I actually despise TDK.

Like anytime I see it, i REALLY hate it. Being a passionate Batman fan, I just can't stand these things:

Too much talk, too preachy

That suit that makes Batman look stupid

that voice

The characterization of Joker (so he's mad and clueless AND has great plans that go to perfection...CONTRADICTION!!!!!)

Chicago as Gotham?

The cheesy speech at the end

Two Face lasting 15 mins...or less

Dent being made into the "white knight" and deviating from the comics, which made more sense


All in all, I am just pissed that it's called TDK because if anything deserves that title, it's the comic from Frank Miller....NOT this.