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View Poll Results: To what extent should Hans Zimmer borrow from the original John Williams score
He MUST keep the Title March!!! Although he may add his own elements for other sequences. 23 23.47%
Completely new score. He should not borrow at all from the William's theme. 59 60.20%
New title march, but borrowing a few key elements from the original march. 15 15.31%
Anything other than the John Williams score will be blasphemy!! Off with Zimmer's head!! 1 1.02%
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:03 PM   #76
aaronw
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HANS ZIMMER IS NOT DOING SUPERMAN

http://www.superherohype.com/news/ar...score-superman


"Claiming the rumor is "some dirty quote taken out of context," Zimmer affirms that he has no plans to score Superman, likening attempting to improve John Williams' original theme to "rewriting Beethovenís ninth.""

That's is precisely correct. Attempting to give Superman some music that will top the John Williams theme is precisely like trying to rewrite Beethoven's ninth.

the John Williams theme IS Superman.

Get used to it people.

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Old 12-07-2010, 04:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

Who's talking about a rewrite?

It's a new score which is a compLETELY different thing!

A rewrite is where you use the existing music and... well, rewrite it. Make it alternate. It's self-explanatory. Execpt, this would not be the case with a new score, so I dont know why Zimmer would say that.

A rewrite is what we DONT want, but kinda got in SR, but then again not really because Ottman didnt make it his own imo.


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Old 12-07-2010, 10:48 PM   #78
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

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Who's talking about a rewrite?

It's a new score which is a compLETELY different thing!

A rewrite is where you use the existing music and... well, rewrite it. Make it alternate. It's self-explanatory. Execpt, this would not be the case with a new score, so I dont know why Zimmer would say that.

A rewrite is what we DONT want, but kinda got in SR, but then again not really because Ottman didnt make it his own imo.
I don't think that's what he meant. I think he means that someone attempting to give Superman NEW music and top John Williams would be about as impossible as rewriting Beethoven's ninth.

And I agree with him...at least with the main title march. That should be in the film in some way. As much as I love Williams' complete score, I don't think it's necessary for the new composer (as much as I would love Williams to come back, if he turned down SR, he's not doing this new movie) to rewrite the score like Ottman did.

I wouldn't mind if the new composer did something similar to what David Arnold did with Casino Royale - holding off on the Bond theme until the character earned it - except instead of that, hold off (main credits included) until he's done with that "crisis" he has and returns as Superman again (if that is in fact what happens). Or if that doesn't happen, I'd be perfectly fine with the main theme at the beginning and then a completely new score with hints of the theme for the rest of the film. The new composer doesn't have to duplicate the "Love" theme, the "Villain" theme, "Smallville" theme, "Krypton" theme, etc.

To get rid of the main theme though I think would be a big mistake. I don't understand why there can be a "best of both worlds" situation.

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Old 12-08-2010, 04:37 PM   #79
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

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I don't think that's what he meant. I think he means that someone attempting to give Superman NEW music and top John Williams would be about as impossible as rewriting Beethoven's ninth.

And I agree with him...at least with the main title march. That should be in the film in some way. As much as I love Williams' complete score, I don't think it's necessary for the new composer (as much as I would love Williams to come back, if he turned down SR, he's not doing this new movie) to rewrite the score like Ottman did.

I wouldn't mind if the new composer did something similar to what David Arnold did with Casino Royale - holding off on the Bond theme until the character earned it - except instead of that, hold off (main credits included) until he's done with that "crisis" he has and returns as Superman again (if that is in fact what happens). Or if that doesn't happen, I'd be perfectly fine with the main theme at the beginning and then a completely new score with hints of the theme for the rest of the film. The new composer doesn't have to duplicate the "Love" theme, the "Villain" theme, "Smallville" theme, "Krypton" theme, etc.

To get rid of the main theme though I think would be a big mistake. I don't understand why there can be a "best of both worlds" situation.
TOTALLY AGREE!

I really don't get some of the people around here.

Why would the use of the John Williams march hinder your enjoyment of a new Superman movie? Sure, it will remind you of the Donner films, but ANYTHING in a new Superman movie will remind you of those movies, unless they change EVERYTHING.

Should we also get rid of the cape, because it was in the Donner films? Should we get rid of Lois Lane? the Daily Planet?

Granted that music was created with and for the Donner films, but EVERY element of Superman was created at some point by some comic, t.v., movie, etc.. Should have Superman's ability to fly been cut out of the Donner films because it would remind people of the May 1943 issue of action comics? Should Lex Luthor no longer be Superman's arch-nemisis because it will remind people of Action Comics #23?

The John Williams theme was an addition to the character, to Superman, that should stick. Just like every other addition to character that has stuck should have stuck. It was better when Superman was given the power to fly. It was better when Lex Luthor became an evil corporate businessman in the late 80's.

People, using the Williams theme will work in a new movie. I have failed to hear any good arguments why it won't.


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Old 12-11-2010, 07:42 AM   #80
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In my opinion, you'll never find a theme to fit a super hero quite like the Williams theme.

James Bond is a perfect example, new actors, new story line, new origins, same theme tune. Did it remind you of previous actors? Not me, just reminded me i was watching a James Bond film (which was needed for Quantum of Solace - imho).

Superman, the package includes the Williams theme.

Dare i say it, if begins and the Dark Knight had hints of the '89 theme, it would have been complete.

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Old 12-13-2010, 02:42 PM   #81
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This is he problem with using the theme. The Theme is no inherent to the character but to a director. Yeah they could get away with using the theme. Honestly I doubt people will be pushed away by the Williams theme. Its worked for Bond. But with Bond, it works because they used it for all the films. We were force fed the theme to the point that no director has tried to really get away from it. Casino Royal made an attempt to hold off to the very end. You can't really envision another theme because 5 of the movie used the same score.

I prefer the Dark Knight score over the Burton stuff. It fits the mood better. I can't see them using the new score for the Burton films for the same reason.

Your going too far with you argument that removing the score is akin to removing Supermans cape. I don't need to here the score to enjoy the Superman media. But the score needs Superman to enjoy it.

If they want to have originality without stepping on what really is Superman(his powers, clothing, cast) then they need to come up with a new theme.

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Old 12-14-2010, 11:40 AM   #82
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^ Exactly. A score is used to enhance a movie. William's theme was great for Donner's movies but that doesn't mean they will work here. We've been told this film will have a darker and more serious tone....that alone calls for a new theme, imo. Trying to force the theme in just because you like williams is nonsense. Go listen to the score if thats the case. This is a whole new vision of Superman...lets not dwell on the past.

Also, as much as I love Burton's Batman theme...it would've been TERRIBLE in Nolan's films. Thank God they made the right decision.

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Old 01-01-2011, 05:03 PM   #83
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While I have been neutral on whether or not Williams' theme should be used for the film; all the naysayers have turned me against them. I hope they use it just to show that they can. And yes, I'd also be happy if the original theme (from the radio series and '40s cartoons) made an appearance.

"Oh, but what if the film's darker and more serious..." please! The first 45-minutes-or-so of the first film was extremely serious--even a little dark--and any melody can be given a "darker" arrangement. Besides, hopefully it's not SO dark that it doesn't admit a triumphant three-note theme at any point. It's Superman.

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Old 01-01-2011, 05:07 PM   #84
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

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While I have been neutral on whether or not Williams' theme should be used for the film; all the naysayers have turned me against them. I hope they use it just to show that they can. And yes, I'd also be happy if the original theme (from the radio series and '40s cartoons) made an appearance.

"Oh, but what if the film's darker and more serious..." please! The first 45-minutes-or-so of the first film was extremely serious--even a little dark--and any melody can be given a "darker" arrangement. Besides, hopefully it's not SO dark that it doesn't admit a triumphant three-note theme at any point. It's Superman.
"Let's use the old theme out of spite!" Oh yes, that's the right foot to start a new Superman series on...

As others have said, this is a new series. That means new actors, new costumes, new sets, new storyline, new theme. It doesn't mean that the old theme isn't good or anything. Its just not this series' theme. Isn't that fair?

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Old 01-01-2011, 05:27 PM   #85
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"Let's use the old theme out of spite!" Oh yes, that's the right foot to start a new Superman series on...
It's not spite. It's called being proud of the character's past. Try it sometime.

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As others have said, this is a new series. That means new actors, new costumes, new sets, new storyline, new theme. It doesn't mean that the old theme isn't good or anything. Its just not this series' theme. Isn't that fair?
Oh, definitely, especially coming from you. But since we're sitting here being fair, would it kill you if they used it for even just a brief moment like in The Goonies or Seinfeld as sort-of an homage just to show that it's all part of a great legacy?

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Old 01-01-2011, 08:00 PM   #86
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No Williams theme please. They need to differentiate the new take as much as they can from the Donner films, just like Nolan's films did with the Burton films.

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Old 01-01-2011, 08:22 PM   #87
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No Williams theme please. They need to differentiate the new take as much as they can from the Donner films, just like Nolan's films did with the Burton films.
This is why I want them to keep it. All these people talking about differentiation just for the sake of differentiation. Most reboots acknowledge earlier versions' themes (Trek, 007) and it doesn't have anything to do with the internal canon or whatever; so there's absolutely no reason to lose it.

After all, Zimmer himself said he wasn't looking forward to trying to top it.

I say it's time for a little music-appreciation lesson.

Edit: Also, if you're planning to talk about how it'll ill-appeal to "the general audience," save it. It's an extremely popular theme--much more-so than the original Trek theme--that does come to mind to casual fans, and has been featured on one of the world's most popular sitcoms.

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:25 PM   #88
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This is why I want them to keep it. All these people talking about differentiation just for the sake of differentiation. Most reboots acknowledge earlier versions' themes (Trek, 007) and it doesn't have anything to do with the internal canon or whatever; so there's absolutely no reason to lose it.

After all, Zimmer himself said he wasn't looking forward to trying to top it.

I say it's time for a little music-appreciation lesson.

Edit: Also, if you're planning to talk about how it'll ill-appeal to "the general audience," save it. It's an extremely popular theme--much more-so than the original Trek theme--that does come to mind to casual fans, and has been featured on one of the world's most popular sitcoms.
This utter worship of the Donner movies has to stop. It's been 30 years guys. Why can't some of you fans give the guys making the new movies permission to move on? Batman severed all ties, that worked out pretty well. I'm sure the Spider-Man reboot will have little to do with Raimi's Spider-Man movies.

Come on guys. The first two movies were okay. But really, isn't it time to move on? Why are we so afraid to try something new?

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:28 PM   #89
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

Love talking about the score but there is a score thread.... and now that Zimmer has confirmed that he ISN'T composing the score for The Man of Steel, I think this thread can be closed.

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:53 PM   #90
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Funny how you mention Spider-Man. Didn't the theme song to the original animated series from, like, 1967 make an appearance, both at the end of the credits AND in the movie itself as something someone was playing in the film itself?



But anyway, Kyle, I've figured out why you do what you do. See, you know that there's no "hero worship" of "the Donner movies" (what a stupid thing to call them) and that nobody's objecting to "doing something new." You're just trying to paint me this way and act like there's this "old boy network" of fans who can't accept anything new so you can look open-minded.

Are you?

Hell no.

Now, in all honestly, I believe that if the song made an appearance in the film, that you'd probably have no problem with it. But in the meantime, you'll raise Hell over it when battling me because you just want to play this game.

The fundamental difference between you and me is that I became a fan of Superman because of his history. You became a "fan" (and I use the term loosely) because you're obsessed with this us-verses-them thing. If there were no controversy over a reboot and there were no "pre-Crisis/post-Crisis," and no other "old vs new" thing going on, you'd pull a Michael Hutchence because that's the main reason you're a "fan."

Now, allow me to reiterate one thing: if it weren't for people like you and your attitude; I wouldn't care either way. Obviously this means you need to work on your methods of persuasion.

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:59 PM   #91
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Love talking about the score but there is a score thread.... and now that Zimmer has confirmed that he ISN'T composing the score for The Man of Steel, I think this thread can be closed.
You know, I never actually notice that. Merge then?

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Old 01-01-2011, 10:20 PM   #92
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

You'll possibly throw to my face that he did BF and B&R... but I absolutely love Elliot Goldenthal's scores for Final Fantasy, Alien 3 and Heat. I somehow think the style of these scores would be fantastic for a new Supes movie. As a little example:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:



Fantastic piece of music IMO... amazing composer when he's not told blatantly to write corny and stupid music.

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Old 01-01-2011, 10:32 PM   #93
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You'll possibly throw to my face that he did BF and B&R... but I absolutely love Elliot Goldenthal's scores for Final Fantasy, Alien 3 and Heat. I somehow think the style of these scores would be fantastic for a new Supes movie. As a little example:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:



Fantastic piece of music IMO... amazing composer when he's not told blatantly to write corny and stupid music.
Oddly enough, I loved Batman Forever, but thought his score was mediocre.

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Old 01-01-2011, 10:36 PM   #94
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Oddly enough, I loved Batman Forever, but thought his score was mediocre.
His both Batman scores suck, honestly... but that's about it. He's pretty much nailed the rest of his output in a very solid way. Alien 3, FF, Heat... all amazing music. If we got Goldenthal and got something similar to one of those films, the score would be full of win...

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Old 01-02-2011, 03:17 AM   #95
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This is why I want them to keep it. All these people talking about differentiation just for the sake of differentiation.
What's wrong with that approach? It worked for Batman, and avoiding it is partly what made SR have a lukewarm reception by the audience.

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Most reboots acknowledge earlier versions' themes (Trek, 007) and it doesn't have anything to do with the internal canon or whatever; so there's absolutely no reason to lose it.
I'll give you Bond, but not Star Trek. And Star Trek used the lesser (in terms of popularity) theme and not the iconic Goldsmith one (which is now the equivalent to the Superman Williams theme), so what does that tell you?

Even then, Bond was a movie franchise that in time has established it's a 100% separate entity from the books, whereas Superman fans are crying for a movie closer to the comics. That alone makes the situation different. Superman needs to harken back to the comics and not the Donner films and, like it or not, the Williams theme is a Donner thing, just like the Elfman Bat-theme is a Burton thing. I don't want the music to transcend the version. That's why I don't want the TAS theme, the Williams theme, the Lois & Clark theme.

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After all, Zimmer himself said he wasn't looking forward to trying to top it.

I say it's time for a little music-appreciation lesson.
Nobody denies the genius of the Williams score, let alone me. I worship the guy and everything he's offered to the world of music. Don't assume that mine and other people's wish to move on has anything to do with any kind of unappreciation to Williams.

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Edit: Also, if you're planning to talk about how it'll ill-appeal to "the general audience," save it. It's an extremely popular theme--much more-so than the original Trek theme--that does come to mind to casual fans, and has been featured on one of the world's most popular sitcoms.
I have no wish to talk about the appeal, I don't see the point. Batman moved on from Elfman, and so should Superman from Williams. Simple as that.


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Old 01-02-2011, 02:04 PM   #96
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What's wrong with that approach? It worked for Batman, and avoiding it is partly what made SR have a lukewarm reception by the audience.
Yeah, but I don't think that simply using the Elfman theme would have hurt the film. As for SR, well, I don't think it's the fact that they used the theme, the look of the Fortress and--well--everything except Lois' bodytype and Superman's costume; I think that it's the fact that every other line was some cutesy "homage" to the first film. It was just overkill.

Also, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight were GOOD whereas Superman Returns was BAD.

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I'll give you Bond, but not Star Trek. And Star Trek used the lesser (in terms of popularity) theme and not the iconic Goldsmith one (which is now the equivalent to the Superman Williams theme), so what does that tell you?
Tells me nothing. True, I'd much rather they used the Goldsmith tune, and for that matter, I didn't really care for the new music just as music; so ultimately, I just consider it a movie with disappointing music. That said, the fact remains that they did utilize the original theme at the end of the film and I don't think it hurt.

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Even then, Bond was a movie franchise that in time has established it's a 100% separate entity from the books, whereas Superman fans are crying for a movie closer to the comics. That alone makes the situation different. Superman needs to harken back to the comics and not the Donner films and, like it or not, the Williams theme is a Donner thing, just like the Elfman Bat-theme is a Burton thing. I don't want the music to transcend the version. That's why I don't want the TAS theme, the Williams theme, the Lois & Clark theme.
Fatal flaw: assuming that the music is somehow contradictory to making it closer to the comics.

Unless they have no music in the film at all (which I sincerely doubt) whatever happens, you--as an individual--are going to have to make a choice: is this music somehow "closer to the comics," or is it just another score which may or may not fit, and may or may not be memorable; but in either case, serves the same function as everything else, which is establishing this filmmaker's own vision of what he sees?

Heck, since we DO have the precedent of the more recent Batman films, I can ask you: are you saying that the music in them somehow fits the comics (1939-present) better (in an indisputable way) or is it just more music for what that filmmaker was trying to do for that film?

Finally, while I liked the L&C theme quite a bit, I was never big on the TAS theme, and I think part of it is that it just sounded like it was trying too hard to substitute for the Williams theme. I can accept that being on a smaller budget they probably couldn't afford it; so here's the deal: if they absolutely don't want the theme because it won't fit, then whatever, but I really hope they don't just write some other three-note theme that might as well have been that.

Edit: Finally (really, this time), if you want to play this game of, "film vs literature" or whatever; I should remind you that Casino Royale was also more similar to the novels than the previous Bond films (except for Daltons, which is ironic since they weren't using the source material for inspiration as much) and so, once again, this doesn't quite hold up.

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Nobody denies the genius of the Williams score, let alone me. I worship the guy and everything he's offered to the world of music. Don't assume that mine and other people's wish to move on has anything to do with any kind of unappreciation to Williams.
Well, okay, that was kind-of unfair, I apologize.

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I have no wish to talk about the appeal, I don't see the point. Batman moved on from Elfman, and so should Superman from Williams. Simple as that.
And again, there's this concept of "moving on." It's not about that. I mean, if they don't use it, they don't use it; but this idea that they can't use anything from those films is just silly. After-all, Batman didn't "move on" from the black armor.

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Old 01-02-2011, 02:16 PM   #97
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Tells me nothing. True, I'd much rather they used the Goldsmith tune, and for that matter, I didn't really care for the new music just as music; so ultimately, I just consider it a movie with disappointing music. That said, the fact remains that they did utilize the original theme at the end of the film and I don't think it hurt.
Its odd that you think people wanting the theme somehow equates to them wanting it playing during the end credits like the old Spider-Man theme. Hell, I wouldn't mind if they did that. But its a new movie series and it needs its own theme. Superman Returns, for better or worse, poisoned the well of the Donner films. Its time for a clean break, a brand new thing that does everything new. Why can't we get that? And again, why can't some Superman fans just let the past go, or at the very least give something new a shot?

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Old 01-02-2011, 02:50 PM   #98
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Its odd that you think people wanting the theme somehow equates to them wanting it playing during the end credits like the old Spider-Man theme. Hell, I wouldn't mind if they did that. But its a new movie series and it needs its own theme.
Great, then there isn't much to argue about, is there?

Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by KyleDW2 View Post
Superman Returns, for better or worse, poisoned the well of the Donner films. Its time for a clean break, a brand new thing that does everything new.
But Kyle, Superman Returns poisoned that well for people like you. I think a lot of people just simply don't see it in those terms. Superman Returns isn't a "Donner movie," anyway, but that's a subject for another sermon.

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Originally Posted by KyleDW2 View Post
Why can't we get that?
Gee, I thought we were. After-all, wasn't that what you were bragging about?

No, but seriously: there is no "clean break" that "does everything new." EVERY reboot has some element of the previous series still around. Yes, even Batman. Even the Batman films maintained the idea of the black armor for the character.

Why? Because they still want the audience for the previous films, even if some fanboy thinks they're "dated" or "unfaithful."

After-all, not everyone hates those films as much as you do.

And that's not even getting into the fact that even if the point of this were to "rebel" against those films--as you clearly want it to be--it's still an adaptation of a comic book series that's been around since 1938. Nothing changes that. So the fact that it's about this super powered alien named Superman in a red & blue costume who's really a bespectacled journalist named Clark Kent and has a love triangle with a colleague named Lois Lane means... yup... it's not new.

Sorry.

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Originally Posted by KyleDW2 View Post
And again, why can't some Superman fans just let the past go,
Because it's his past that makes him who he is. The real question is how can Superman fans want to let the past go?

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Originally Posted by KyleDW2 View Post
or at the very least give something new a shot?
Hey, you know I'm all for giving something new a shot. I just don't want it to come at the expense of his history. Just because someone wants to preserve something old doesn't mean they don't want anything new.

After-all, you can reboot, revamp, reimagine, reinvent and retool Superman all you want; he's still that character that was created in 1938. And nothing will ever change that.

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Last edited by Nightwing1983; 01-02-2011 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:25 AM   #99
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

Here's the thing, isn't Burton's Batman theme the classic as well?? Still nothing stays in Nolan's movies, because they just simply NOT match.

I know people love that theme, it's john williams, STAR WARS, Harry Potter....which of them aint nice/super super classic?? Yet you don't know what's the new style of superman, and logically, I don't see how John Williams's theme come to match Zack Snyder's style.


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Old 01-31-2011, 12:41 AM   #100
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Default Re: Should Hans Zimmer borrow from the John Williams score?

so let me get this right: "Attempting to Rewriting Williams' Theme is like Attempting to Rewriting Beethoven's Ninth." so what you guys are saying is this... Williams is better than Zimmer.... but BEETHOVEN is better than Williams? seriously? wonderful appreciation of music with THAT ideology... No one is better than NO ONE!!! if that's the case... Jesus is better than God... see how stupid that sounds?

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